If Update Patches didn't exist

[Solutionme]

Yoshi had more end lag add to his down air and dash attack, plus more startup was added to Yoshi's neutral special. All three of these nerfs hurt Yoshi badly. His dash attack used to true combo into itself and true combo into up air, which made his juggling game godlike. The additional startup to Yoshi's neutral special made his lackluster grab game more of a problem than it was before and the added end lag to down air made that move more punishable. Yoshi also used to be able to do some egg sliding shenanigans near the ledge that was patched out with 1.0.8. Patches hurt Yoshi way more than a lot of people realize, but at least 1.10 and 1.11 were good patches for Yoshi. Having his back air auto-link better made the move much better and the additional hit-stun to shields helped to makes his fair and dair considerably safer on shield.

Those nerfs were probably extremely justified anyways, Yoshi is already a freaking monster even without the shield patch and just letting him keep that much would be ridiculous. I'm only hoping they nerf Peach slightly soon cause those float cancels are OP as hell.

 

[W.A.C.]

Those nerfs were probably extremely justified anyways, Yoshi is already a freaking monster even without the shield patch and just letting him keep that much would be ridiculous. I'm only hoping they nerf Peach slightly soon cause those float cancels are OP as hell.

In a meta where characters like Shiek, ZSS, and Pikachu are so amazing, those nerfs were not justified at all. The character stopped getting results after those nerfs for a reason. :|

 

[LancerStaff]

In a meta where characters like Shiek, ZSS, and Pikachu are so amazing, those nerfs were not justified at all. The character stopped getting results after those nerfs for a reason. :|

There's more to Smash then the 1v1 meta though... Heck, even if it were just 1v1s it'd still be justified as long as it isn't making some giant gap.

 

[W.A.C.]

There's more to Smash then the 1v1 meta though... Heck, even if it were just 1v1s it'd still be justified as long as it isn't making some giant gap.

Those nerfs weren't justified in the 1v1 meta, the doubles meta, or free for all meta.

 

[LancerStaff]

Those nerfs weren't justified in the 1v1 meta, the doubles meta, or free for all meta.

Maybe, but chances are that they weren't nerfed for any "meta," or any advanced one. If they find something to be too abusive for mid level players, they're going to nerf it. They don't just nerf characters because they can.

 

[Solutionme]

Sheik is garbage though. You have to know what you're doing to make good use of her. Also yes the Yoshi nerfs were justified, dair lag before the nerf in this patch would be broken. Eggs were also too easy to spam and made his recovery better than what it should be.

 

[W.A.C.]

Maybe, but chances are that they weren't nerfed for any "meta," or any advanced one. If they find something to be too abusive for mid level players, they're going to nerf it. They don't just nerf characters because they can.

My point is that none of those moves deserved to be nerfed and it further highlights how much Sakurai sucks at balancing his own games.

Sheik is garbage though. You have to know what you're doing to make good use of her. Also yes the Yoshi nerfs were justified, dair lag before the nerf in this patch would be broken. Eggs were also too easy to spam and made his recovery better than what it should be.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[CrazyPerson]

Sheik is garbage though. You have to know what you're doing to make good use of her. Also yes the Yoshi nerfs were justified, dair lag before the nerf in this patch would be broken. Eggs were also too easy to spam and made his recovery better than what it should be.

Competitive rules... shiek is anything but garbage.

The free for all game may be the reason she gets to keep all that insanity... as her strengths are more difficult to use in that setting.

As far as "need to know what you are doing to make good use of her." That is true... but it is true of every charecter.

Rosaluma has gotten a ton of nerfs, despite being one of the harder characters to get great with. Don't see why anyone else should get immunity by that logic.

But it does bring up a good discussion point.... do we balance around top level potential or how good a charecter does in a casual party setting?

 

[LancerStaff]

My point is that none of those moves deserved to be nerfed and it further highlights how much Sakurai sucks at balancing his own games.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Yes they did. Just because there's better moves doesn't mean that they shouldn't be nerfed if they're still better then most.

Sakurai tends to focus on two aspects more then others for balancing. FFAs, and how much of a character's moveset is being used in 1v1s. Sheik needs KO moves to function in FFAs. They can't just nerf all her KO moves to kill at 300% because then she would literally be useless in FFAs. Then there's Diddy and Luigi, who had "braindead" strategies that were much stronger then anything else they could do but were otherwise balanced in FFAs. (Note that Luigi wasn't actually that good overall to begin with in 1v1s.) When they both had their Dthrow > kill move combos nerfed they received compensation for FFAs.

Yoshi's Dair I know was abusive in mid level play. I'd say it was a fair nerf.

 

[ChkMte]

Those nerfs were probably extremely justified anyways, Yoshi is already a freaking monster even without the shield patch and just letting him keep that much would be ridiculous. I'm only hoping they nerf Peach slightly soon cause those float cancels are OP as hell.

Float cancel nerfs? Peach's float cancels aren't that huge imo, they don't add to her kill power all they do is make her more mobile but complex, and they slightly make up for her lack of actual speed. It's nothing like she had in Brawl imo, if her Fair still canceled and her nair killed at like 100 then yeah something needs to change but I really don't see it as much of a problem atm.

 

[33percentgod]

Remember how "op" Rosalina was, making her the best character, before she became the most nerfed character in the game(maybe even of all time...17 nerfs is a bad thing).

You're shield broken, but yet not only still able to attack, which should be a fundamental/braindead resounding NO, but able KILL the heaviest character in the game from 0 damage.

Rosalina too nerfed. Cuz lyke LUma do 5 dmg insted of 9. a Nerf is a nerf guy.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I'd be fine with that. If it were the original WiiU release. If it were based on the 3DS base, I dunno...

 

[Goolloom]

-Diddy would still be number 1 best/stupidest character in the game Hoo-Hah'ing his way to top 3 in every tournament.
-Greninja wouldn't be nerfed to oblivion
-Wario would still be flying all over the place.
-This game would still be ''Shield-grab-down-combos Bros.'' (It didn't really change that much come to think of it.)

In an alternate universe Smash 4 was released and it was not going to receive updates...
I wonder if people would be complaining as much for nerf and/or buffs.
Would the community adapt like it did for Melee and have a third of the cast tournament viable? Or the game would be modded to a similar fashion to Project M?

 

[LancerStaff]

You're shield broken, but yet not only still able to attack, which should be a fundamental/braindead resounding NO, but able KILL the heaviest character in the game from 0 damage.

Rosalina too nerfed. Cuz lyke LUma do 5 dmg insted of 9. a Nerf is a nerf guy.

Almost any character can kill Bowser at 0%, though. Blame rage combined with smash attack vulnerability instead of just one character that can do this.

 

[DiggsLeehay]

Flame War! Flame War!

 

[Hathaway12]

Doubles would be all teams of Game and Watch and Pikachu until that was banned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg0

 

[Newtonjar]

Doubles would be all teams of Game and Watch and Pikachu until that was banned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg0

I'm willing to bet that would have been banned eventually.

 

[Reader]

It's near impossibly to say since the game would probably have had a longer bug/glitch testing development stage. I doubt that things like Wario's vectoring glitch or Wii Fit Trainer's attacks attacking through shields (at least one of her aerials did, if I recall correctly). The game would still probably use vectoring over D.I (or perhaps they already realized that vectoring was a mistake and had already decided to patch it. Without this possibility the game would have been delayed again). Shulk would probably be trash as well (or at least trashier than he is now).

 

[33percentgod]

Almost any character can kill Bowser at 0%, though. Blame rage combined with smash attack vulnerability instead of just one character that can do this.

During shield break?

Shield break is the most vulnerable position in the game. It's where you've literally had you're entire defensive line obliterated and it's now time for you to be punished.

Yet Rosalina does it. Don't bother with any rationalizing either, this isn't up for debate. It's insane and shouldn't even be a thing, never mind even talking about it.

 

[LancerStaff]

During shield break?

Shield break is the most vulnerable position in the game. It's where you've literally had you're entire defensive line obliterated and it's now time for you to be punished.

Yet Rosalina does it. Don't bother with any rationalizing either, this isn't up for debate. It's insane and shouldn't even be a thing, never mind even talking about it.

Rosalina's not the only character who can defend themselves during shield break though.

Don't try to rationalize it? You're the one who's sounding irrational... It's a completely intentional design choice and barely even makes a difference since Luma will either get knocked away by the first hit or is easily dispatched after, and that's assuming you can't just out prioritize Luma to begin with.

Rosalina is strong in 1v1s because otherwise she'd be worthless in FFAs otherwise. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

 

[Sünta]

We'd have Greninja KOing at 30% lol XD

This. Also flying wario. Diddy's hoo ha wouldn't be too big of a deal because Greninja would be the best by a long shot.

 

[XenoBlur]

Wario would still be an auditionee for Team Rocket, Mario would be doing 5% per up tilt, the wonderful nerf Greninja jokes wouldn't exist, Rosalina would be absolutely broken, Sheik, Diddy and Sonic would somehow be even more braindead than they are now, Luigi would still be fun to play, the game would be short four characters, Mewtwo fans would still cry their sodium-infused tiers, and many more.

To sum it up in short, this game and community would be several times worse off, there'd be ****storms and salt waves aplenty, and in terms of game balance, it'd be Melee all over again. So yeah, I suppose "not good" just about covers it.

LOL Sheik braindead? When the game came out? maybe because of the chain grab, but now she is different story nowhere near braindead. Mario is the braindead lol

 

[Shaymin slicker]

The only thing I can see is Diddy Kong, Shiek, Rosalina, and Zero Suit running all over the place.

Not to mention Link would still have his Zero to Death combo, which could be annoying...

 

[MarioMeteor]

LOL Sheik braindead? When the game came out? maybe because of the chain grab, but now she is different story nowhere near braindead. Mario is the braindead lol

How to play Sheik: forward tilt x5, forward air, wash rinse and repeat.

 

[XenoBlur]

How to play Sheik: forward tilt x5, forward air, wash rinse and repeat.

Have you watched Omni's video about braindead characters? you clearly know anything about the game, you are just salty because you can't accept that Mario is a braindead character and now he is the easiest of all because of Luigi nerf, Sheik isn't near braindead and requieres a lot of skill to play her, and I don't say this because I main her, All smash pro players says this, the reason because not everyone plays her even tho she is the best is because of how much skill she demand to play good and not characters like Mario, I'm super good with Mario even tho I have only played him like twice. So im sorry, but Sheik isn't braindead maybe the other characters and please think twice before speaking/writting

 

[MarioMeteor]

Have you watched Omni's video about braindead characters? you clearly know anything about the game, you are just salty because you can't accept that Mario is a braindead character and now he is the easiest of all because of Luigi nerf, Sheik isn't near braindead and requieres a lot of skill to play her, and I don't say this because I main her, All smash pro players says this, the reason because not everyone plays her even tho she is the best is because of how much skill she demand to play good and not characters like Mario, I'm super good with Mario even tho I have only played him like twice. So im sorry, but Sheik isn't braindead maybe the other characters and please think twice before speaking/writting

Right... If you think Sheik takes skill, that tells me all I need to know about your skill. And please reread at least twice before misspelling simple words trying to be a smartass.

 

[McDizzle!]

Right... If you think Sheik takes skill, that tells me all I need to know about your skill. And please reread at least twice before misspelling simple words trying to be a smartass.

Sheik is not a braindead character. She is the best character in Sm4sh because she has the most potential, and you clearly don't know anything about Sheik since you think that playing her is simply "ftilt x5 and fair." The "pro Sheik players" on FG may do that but that is not all it takes to play Sheik. You clearly don't know Sheik's depth.

Edit: With your logic I could say that Mario is a braindead character because all you have to do is "dthrow utilt x3 uair upb rinse and repeat."

 

[MarioMeteor]

Sheik is not a braindead character. She is the best character in Sm4sh because she has the most potential, and you clearly don't know anything about Sheik since you think that playing her is simply "ftilt x5 and fair." The "pro Sheik players" on FG may do that but that is not all it takes to play Sheik. You clearly don't know Sheik's depth.

Edit: With your logic I could say that Mario is a braindead character because all you have to do is "dthrow utilt x3 uair upb rinse and repeat."

That's true, you could, only the difference would be that I wouldn't give a ****.

 

[XenoBlur]

That's true, you could, only the difference would be that I wouldn't give a ****.

I'm sorry my english is bad I know, Im still learning if that what you meant
About the patches.
-Diddy would be banned in some tournaments like MK
-Everyone would hate Sakurai because no DLC
-and Replays would be fine lol

 

[Rashyboy05]

If update patches doesn't exist then the entire Fire Emblem cast and Mii Swordfighter would still be terribad and I would still be maining Pit since he is a much better character. That, and Marth wouldn't be having his super fun Jab1 and UAir strings. 2fun4mii

 

[N7Kopper]

Oh wow, salt pours from this thread for some reason.

If this game had no patches, nobody would be whining about the patches that happen - instead they'd be whining about there not being patches.

 

[asdfghjkl1111]

It'l be a slightly better brawl and more disappointing than brawl ever was.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd stop playing. Only braindead broken characters were viable.

 

[EtrianHero23]

Rosalina's not the only character who can defend themselves during shield break though.

Wait, who else can defend themselves during shield break? I can't seem to think of anyone else who is able to do that?

And also, pertaining to the topic question, Diddy would Hoo Hah everyone in the cast. Sheik would have more kill power. Greninja would actually be a thing in the competitive scene. Yoshi would still not be used in high level play....etc.

In addition, no shield stun change.

 

[McDizzle!]

Wait, who else can defend themselves during shield break? I can't seem to think of anyone else who is able to do that?

And also, pertaining to the topic question, Diddy would Hoo Hah everyone in the cast. Sheik would have more kill power. Greninja would actually be a thing in the competitive scene. Yoshi would still not be used in high level play....etc.

In addition, no shield stun change.

No one else can defend themselves during shield break. The only reason Rosalina could do that in the first place was because of an oversight due to Luma. However I guess you could say that Bowser Jr. could defend himself with the Mechakoopa and Link could use his bomb to blow himself up and escape but none of those things could kill an opponent at 0%.

 

[LancerStaff]

No one else can defend themselves during shield break. The only reason Rosalina could do that in the first place was because of an oversight due to Luma. However I guess you could say that Bowser Jr. could defend himself with the Mechakoopa and Link could use his bomb to blow himself up and escape but none of those things could kill an opponent at 0%.

I was thinking DH's can could get a similar result.

 

[McDizzle!]

I was thinking DH's can could get a similar result.

True, but I don't know if it could kill at 0%

 

[W.A.C.]

Yoshi's Dair I know was abusive in mid level play. I'd say it was a fair nerf.

None of Yosh's nerfs (outside of the insane egg teleportation glitch) warranted a nerf. Sakurai is just really lousy at balancing his games and caters too much to casuals and complaining with balance patches. (Examples: Some of Greninja's nerfs, some of Diddy's nerfs, all of DDD's nerfs, etc).

Yoshi would still not be used in high level play....etc.

Dafuq... Do you have any idea how much better he was in the 3DS days? He was potentially in the bottom end of top ten.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I'd stop playing. Only braindead broken characters were viable.

But people would still call Duck Hunt op for a little while longer

 

[Khao]

If patches weren't a thing, you'd get banned from For Glory for using Peach's turnips.

So yah, thank ****ing god they actually are a thing.