If ____ Isn't Top/High tier, What's the point?

[Sky Hazuki]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

I think that this goes for any character, but let me tell you my dilemma.
I've been playing with M a r t h since the game came out, and when I play with him... I usually win. I'm not being arrogant or cocky or anything... It is just that he is a broken character in my opinion. So I decided to take a different route. I decided to pick up P e a c h. In my opinion, she is much harder to play, so it is more rewarding to win.

But then this idea just dawned on me. She got Nerfed. Big time.

I understand that this is brawl, and we shouldn't be playing her the same as we did in melee. I don't think she is going to be High Tier again. So lets just say she is Mid tier.
Now... This may sound dumb, but I haven't seen a lot of Mid tiers make it very far professionally. Well, C. Falcon, yeah, XD S.S. ^^ But not a whole lot after that.
Sure there are good players that take up mid tiers, but... that brings up a whole new point...

How far can you possibly go with a Mid tier character? They are mid tier for a reason.
I guess the underlying question for this whole thing is.

Given ____ Isn't top/high tier, what is the point in trying to practice and get good, if you can't get as far as the characters above you?
If this made sense to anybody, help out. ^_^
Thanks for reading.

Stoopid april fools Joke. >.<
Smashboard filtering Ftl.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
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[EmperorCesar]

1. Nobody cares, its been discussed to death
2. Official Tier discussion thread

 

[Mann]

Just because someone is high on a tier list, doesn't mean other characters are unplayable.

A tier list defines advantages, disadvantages, potential, and what not. This does not list what the player is capable of though. The lower a character is on a tier list, the more challenges a character has against those above him/her. It's up to the player to decide on what to do.

 

[cwjalex]

that post was extremely painful to read for more than one reason...people play different characters for reasons other than trying to win every single game.

...and you are blatantly taking a massive dump on the english language with that post

EDIT: sorry my bad, didn't realize it was April Fools...although the crappy grammar had nothing to do with April Fools...

 

[Sky Hazuki]

that post was extremely painful to read for more than one reason...people play different characters for reasons other than trying to win every single game.

...and you are blatantly taking a massive dump on the english language with that post

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

It's a mixture of my over analytical writting style...
And it's really late.
Blame Smashboards for their April fools stuff. >.<​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
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[Sky Hazuki]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Fixed. Now it should make more sense.
That was terrible writing... >.<​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

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[Mann]

that post was extremely painful to read for more than one reason...people play different characters for reasons other than trying to win every single game.

...and you are blatantly taking a massive dump on the english language with that post

April fools, buddy. Try typing names of characters and versions of SSB

 

[Frothylark]

For low tier tournaments and because low tiers in singles move up in doubles.

 

[Sky`]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

I Just hope that peach will be able to rise up on the Tier lists.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
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[Uncle Fitzy]

For low tier tournaments and because low tiers in singles move up in doubles.

I agree with the doubles thing. A lot of people are placing Sonic low on the tier list and although i may disagree with them there is no question that he is extremely useful in doubles IMO.

 

[redgreenblue]

Do I honestly have to bust out the tier explanation video? *sigh*

Tiers and SSBB

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Come on, she isn't *that* bad. You just have to play her differently (very different) from how you might have in the previous game.

What's the point in playing someone who isn't the best character in the game you might ask? If you are truly good, you will either become beastly with your main, or you'll switch characters later on if the one you are using isn't as good as you want. At this point, does it make a difference? Everyone seems playable right now.

 

[Jumanji]

Because there will be new Advanced Tactics that might be game changing. Because finding out how all characters work helps you play against them. Because SSBB may end up being incredibly balanced so as it is not incredibly difficult for an equally skilled mid tie r to beat a god tie r. Because maybe there are specific match ups that will make that character really useful (see IC's vs Shieks a few years ago.)

I hate April fools day. Was that really necessary?

Sheik
Zelda
Bowser Mario Ness Fox Falco Link Ganondorf

 

[AA-Abderian]

First of all... April Fools day is weak...
Anyway in my eyes I think the whole tier system will be less important in this installment. Without wave dashing and all of the other advanced tactics found in Melee I think that character choice will have less affect on how good you can become.

Tires don exits.
Viva la Ness (**** eaten PKT)

 

[TMS2]

Ur Gae April Fools Lol

 

[The Executive]

Do I honestly have to bust out the tier explanation video? *sigh*

Tiers and SSBB

Up until now, I had never been RickRoll'd.

CURSE YOU!!!!

Anyway, Now is not the t i m e (last Thursday) or the place (Firestone) to discuss tires. The crazy devs have done an impeccable job of imposing Communist rule on the old tier list; everyone is for the moment seemingly equal. That said, for some people it may be worth the effort to master a character that isn't necessarily high tier because it most efficiently fits their playstyle. Or, in my case, I main Pit because of quick hits and god recovery (must be knocked o'er a death line in most cases), T. Link (or Zelda) because aiming/placing projectiles for 'combos' (i.e. up thrown bomb to u-smash to XX-air) for the most part requires thought and I like strategy, or maybe Bowser just because it is intensely rewarding to manhandle your opponent. Out of all those chars, only one (poss. two) are 'top-tier'. People have all kinds of reasons for playing who they play as.

Edit: haha SWF, very funny...very funny. April Fool indeed.

 

[Yuna]

First of all... April Fools day is weak...
Anyway in my eyes I think the whole tier system will be less important in this installment. Without wave dashing and all of the other advanced tactics found in Melee I think that character choice will have less affect on how good you can become.

What kind of convoluted logic is this?

"We removed a few things... so now tiers don't matter."

An Yoshi will never be able to win against an equally skilled Marth in Brawl... unless the Yoshi plays perfectly and the Marth messes up repeatedly. That's a fact.

With less universal techniques that help bad characters become tremendously better (L-canceling made slow laggy characters playable), the game is more unbalanced. Wavedashing allowed almost everyone to punish certain moves. No wavedashing = Less punishing. Oh, did Marth just Fsmash you at tipper range? You're Yoshi? Too bad, no punish for you! You're Marth? Fair/Bair out of shield!

Tiers will always matter unless the game is almost perfectly balanced. And Brawl might or might not be more balanced than Melee but it's far from being perfectly balanced. Some characters will be useless. Why would anyone play them? For fun. But they wouldn't stand a chance in a tournament setting.

It's just life. If you want to stand a chance at winning a tournament or place well, then you'll have to tierwhore in some way (if not Top or High than at least "Not Bottom").

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

If you're good enough at the game, tiers don't matter. I bet Gimpyfish would destroy anyone here's Marth.

 

[Twin Dreams]

What kind of convoluted logic is this?

"We removed a few things... so now tiers don't matter."

An Yoshi will never be able to win against an equally skilled Marth in Brawl... unless the Yoshi plays perfectly and the Marth messes up repeatedly. That's a fact.

With less universal techniques that help bad characters become tremendously better (L-canceling made slow laggy characters playable), the game is more unbalanced. Wavedashing allowed almost everyone to punish certain moves. No wavedashing = Less punishing. Oh, did Marth just Fsmash you at tipper range? You're Yoshi? Too bad, no punish for you! You're Marth? Fair/Bair out of shield!

Tiers will always matter unless the game is almost perfectly balanced. And Brawl might or might not be more balanced than Melee but it's far from being perfectly balanced. Some characters will be useless. Why would anyone play them? For fun. But they wouldn't stand a chance in a tournament setting.

It's just life. If you want to stand a chance at winning a tournament or place well, then you'll have to tierwhore in some way (if not Top or High than at least "Not Bottom").

You over looked a small fact. There is one advantage to being a low tiered character. By being a low tier character, you know how to play very well against high tiered characters. Where as the average player will not know how to play against low tiered characters.


HOWEVER, this advantage will shrink considerably as you move up to larger tournaments with better players.

Because a perfected Yoshi will not beat a perfected Marth.



Can low tier characters win? Absolutely.
Is it harder to win? Yes.

You better back your low-tier with a few powerful secondaries.

 

[Yuna]

If you're good enough at the game, tiers don't matter. I bet Gimpyfish would destroy anyone here's Marth.

Yeah, if they suck. Can he destroy Mew2King's Marth using a Brawl Low Tier? I don't think so.

Stop saying "If you're good, then you can destroy [worse player] Top Tiers!". I can destroy people with Zelda in Melee. Doesn't mean she isn't bad and that even nominally skilled players not even of equal skill as me can easily beat me as her.

 

[Yuna]

You over looked a small fact. There is one advantage to being a low tiered character. By being a low tier character, you know how to play very well against high tiered characters. Where as the average player will not know how to play against low tiered characters.

I didn't forget about it. I just didn't mention it because it's a stupid advantage. The only way it's going to be an advantage would be if you were facing a player who wasn't really that good and who doesn't have that much experience.

That's like saying I can beat an unskilled Marth because he's just not that good as Marth! Should I give you a cookie? Anyone worth their salt will destroy your Low Tier even if he's obscure and not many people play as him. Because they will have learned how to handle him. And skilled players can also adapt. Even if you start playing in a "creative" way, they'll still win unless your creativity is somehow unbeatable (which would make your tactics so good your Low Tier can't be Low Tier) or they're having an off day.

HOWEVER, this advantage will shrink considerably as you move up to larger tournaments with better players.

Being non-existent once you climb to the top. In other words, a Brawl Yoshi will never place high in a large tournament.

Can low tier characters win? Absolutely.
Is it harder to win? Yes.

What part of "Perfect" was too hard for you to understand. A perfectly played Yoshi will never beat a Perfectly played Marth. Heck, even a Yoshi and a Marth played with equal skill and at an equal level (i.e. both mess up the same amount of times and in the same amount of severity relatively) will have the Marth win. Why? Because Yoshi sucks.

You better back your low-tier with a few powerful secondaries.

Which refutes my "You play them for fun... but not to win tournaments"-statement how?

 

[TechnoMonster]

Yuna, I love you very much for doing the dirty job that nobody wants to do, but these kids have been watching too much Cinderella.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I think about this every time I look at the character select screen.

As of right now, I don't play a top or high-tier character. Not because I dislike good characters, my favorite character just happens to be mediocre. I've been practicing some high tiers just to do well in tournaments, even though I don't really have fun playing as them. It's kind of a dilemma for me. There's the whole playing for fun/playing to win thing. Wario is fun. Losing as Wario is not fun. Toon Link is not fun. Winning as Toon Link is fun. What do I do? I'm talking about tournaments here, I'll play friendlies as Wario all day. Not saying Wario is bad, but he has his shortcomings. At tournaments my main goal is just to place high, I don't know if I should throw the whole "fun character" thing out the window though.

If I hadn't swapped out Wario for IC/G&W at my last tournament, I wouldn't have even made it out of pools. And I don't even play Ice Climbers but I managed to do better with them than with Wario. Helps that I played IC in Melee though XD

 

[Twin Dreams]

I didn't forget about it. I just didn't mention it because it's a stupid advantage. The only way it's going to be an advantage would be if you were facing a player who wasn't really that good and who doesn't have that much experience.

That's like saying I can beat an unskilled Marth because he's just not that good as Marth! Should I give you a cookie? Anyone worth their salt will destroy your Low Tier even if he's obscure and not many people play as him. Because they will have learned how to handle him. And skilled players can also adapt. Even if you start playing in a "creative" way, they'll still win unless your creativity is somehow unbeatable (which would make your tactics so good your Low Tier can't be Low Tier) or they're having an off day.


Being non-existent once you climb to the top. In other words, a Brawl Yoshi will never place high in a large tournament.


What part of "Perfect" was too hard for you to understand. A perfectly played Yoshi will never beat a Perfectly played Marth. Heck, even a Yoshi and a Marth played with equal skill and at an equal level (i.e. both mess up the same amount of times and in the same amount of severity relatively) will have the Marth win. Why? Because Yoshi sucks.


Which refutes my "You play them for fun... but not to win tournaments"-statement how?

Why did you take parts of my post out of context to refute them with the exact same information that was already in my post?



Also, I was merely stating that it IS an advantage. However, you are still correct. You can play them for fun, but low tier characters will not consistently place you in high level tournaments.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

More things I'd like to add.

Even if a lower-tier character isn't capable of winning tournies, doesn't mean you can't get 3rd or 4th as long as you place high, be happy with that. Just know that your trip through the brackets will be much harder, and you're eventually going to lose to a top tier.

Also, in Melee low-tiers sometimes made great counterpicks against certain high tiers. Doesn't seem to be the case in Brawl though maybe Jiggs vs Ike, idk

 

[Yuna]

More things I'd like to add.

Even if a lower-tier character isn't capable of winning tournies, doesn't mean you can't get 3rd or 4th as long as you place high, be happy with that. Just know that your trip through the brackets will be much harder, and you're eventually going to lose to a top tier.

Also, in Melee low-tiers sometimes made great counterpicks against certain high tiers. Doesn't seem to be the case in Brawl though maybe Jiggs vs Ike, idk

Actually, it means you won't be placing Top10 at any tournament with a lot of good players and that's not tiny. You won't be placing 3rd or 4th if the Top 10 players at the tournaments are good, not even if you're among them if you opt for a Low Tier unless that Low Tier's got a good matchup against some of the characters people play against you.

 

[GofG]

Flame on!

Hehe, two bluenames are actually fighting? C'mon guys, you guys can't be fighting! You have to love each other so that you both can develop new tournament-running strats!

 

[Yuna]

Flame on!

Hehe, two bluenames are actually fighting? C'mon guys, you guys can't be fighting! You have to love each other so that you both can develop new tournament-running strats!

You must not have even a basic grasp of the English language since we haven't flamed each other.

Also, as opposed to you and your "brood", we're not lemmings who'll blindly follow anyone of our "group". We'll counter-argue anyone we don't agree with, no matter affiliation.

If Mew2King claims Yoshi is Top Tier tomorrow without being able to provide any evidence as to why, I'll challenge him.

 

[Corigames]

People may change the face of the game by making a character reach a new height never thought reachable. Or, they may directly counter another character. Look at the Japanese tier list! 1. Sheik 2. Dr. Mario

If you compare that to ours, it doesn't make any sense. That's just their playing style. So, if you can, make Peach top tier. The only thing the tiers show is who is winning tournaments anyway. So if you win a lot with peach, she'll go up!

 

[Rebel581]

Tiers don't matter at this point in the game. So stfu about them. We have zero clue what they even are. I say Link is top tier in Melee because I played for 3 hours and couldn't get past his up-b. While it's not as drastic as that, it's similar.

And as much as Yuna is a ****, when the metagame starts to balance out more he's right. This game doesn't seem like the epitome of balance as it once did (with Dedede himself taking out a good amount of characters from competitive play).

 

[DiasFlac]

Yeah, if they suck. Can he destroy Mew2King's Marth using a Brawl Low Tier? I don't think so.

Stop saying "If you're good, then you can destroy [worse player] Top Tiers!". I can destroy people with Zelda in Melee. Doesn't mean she isn't bad and that even nominally skilled players not even of equal skill as me can easily beat me as her.

If your good enough tiers don't matter.

I can beat anyones Marth with Bowser. I mean think about it. A MONSTER with sharp claws vs a little girl with blue hair and a toy sword.

No matter how hard Marth tries he will never match Bowser in the tier ranks. This is a fact.

 

[YoshiBomb]

The Tier List is based on tourny play

 

[Corigames]

Arrg people. Here's how the tier list works:

Everyone has a skill level, like computers. We are all, hopefully, above 9. I would put myself at about 15-17. When you play someone of your level, then the tiers apply. Meaning, chances are that if you are facing someone higher on the tier list, but of same skill level, you are going to lose. And vise versa. Now, if someone is a level 17 playing pichu and you are a level 15 playing Fox, it is not concrete that they will win, but they do have the favor in the situation.

People of higher skill usually win. That's what it boils down to.

 

[Eriatarka]

If your good enough tiers don't matter.

Tiers don't matter as long as you're much more skilled than your opponent. If you come up against someone who is just as skilled as you are, and who is using a "higher tier" character than your character, they have an advantage. Not an advantage in personal skill, an advantage due soley to their character choice. If you are the ultimate, world #1 Smash player by a MASSIVE margin, then yes tiers don't matter to you, and if you are the ultimate Smash player then congratulations. But the disadantages of using a lower-tier character against a higher-tier one will still effect the other 99.9999% of Smash players.

 

[Nobie]

The reason to use a character who is not Top or High Tier in a tournament is really quite simple. It's something easily forgotten in tier talk but it's the most important element of all: the human element.

I'm not saying that tiers are relative to each person, or that tiers are an illusion. Far from it.

What I am saying however is that people are different. People's personalities, finger dexterity, and most importantly mindset and preferences go long ways in shaping their playstyles, and while another character may be "better" and higher in the tiers, a person may find that a character lower in the charts just *clicks* with them. This motivates them to learn more, to strive harder, to be better.

Because of that, it may certainly become possible that a person using a worse character will do better than if that same person were to use a better character who is not as comfortable for them to use.

 

[DiasFlac]

Tiers don't matter as long as you're much more skilled than your opponent. If you come up against someone who is just as skilled as you are, and who is using a "higher tier" character than your character, they have an advantage. Not an advantage in personal skill, an advantage due soley to their character choice. If you are the ultimate, world #1 Smash player by a MASSIVE margin, then yes tiers don't matter to you, and if you are the ultimate Smash player then congratulations. But the disadantages of using a lower-tier character against a higher-tier one will still effect the other 99.9999% of Smash players.

So you agree with Bowser being top then?

 

[Yuna]

If your good enough tiers don't matter.

I can beat anyones Marth with Bowser. I mean think about it. A MONSTER with sharp claws vs a little girl with blue hair and a toy sword.

No matter how hard Marth tries he will never match Bowser in the tier ranks. This is a fact.

Who are you and why should I not think you're stupid?

I can beat a bunch of people as Zelda in Melee. Doesn't mean Zelda is Top Tier material or that she isn't 4th or so worst in the entire game. They're just bad players. And so are you and the people you play against.

And since when does outwards appearances mean anything in fighting games? Sometimes, the big, slow and strong characters are Top Tier och High Tier (not in this case, though, you and your friends just suck).

 

[Rayku]

Actually, it means you won't be placing Top10 at any tournament with a lot of good players and that's not tiny. You won't be placing 3rd or 4th if the Top 10 players at the tournaments are good, not even if you're among them if you opt for a Low Tier unless that Low Tier's got a good matchup against some of the characters people play against you.

This may be talking old-skool, but didn't Taj place top 10 consistently with Mewtwo? I could be wrong.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
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<_<
>_>

Climbing the mountain... never coming down. Break into the contents... never falling down.

 

[Dark Sonic]

This may be talking old-skool, but didn't Taj place top 10 consistently with Mewtwo? I could be wrong.

I think Taj uses Marth in actual tournaments, especially in the latter rounds when he fights against more skilled players.