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Ice Climbers' Shield Pressure

Discussion in 'Ice Climbers' started by Kyu Puff, Jul 14, 2010.

  1. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
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    Introduction: Ice Climbers have two hammers--sticks with big wooden blocks that induce a lot of stun and have dangerous shield-decimating potential. Yet nobody ever seems to discuss the shield pressure options that are available to them. This might be due to the fact that people are hesitant to shield against Ice Climbers in the first place (deadly grab, etc.), and when they do it's usually because you're about to hit them. When that happens, it might be useful to have an idea of how safe your moves are on shield and what they can lead into. Some of the following may be practical--a lot of it probably isn't--but I hope people at least find it interesting.

    Disclaimer: There is a small margin for error on these charts. I am not considering shield stab or knockback most of the time because I don't have any way to test it. According to Magus, doing an aerial on the first frame you're in the air may decrease your jump height and your air time by a few frames. The aerial might also contort your body so that you land earlier than you should. I'm not using action replay, only the following resources (which you can use also):

    Frames of Hitlag and Shield Stun (Ice Climbers)

    SDM's Frame Data (Ice Climbers)

    Seanson's Hitbox System

    Notation: Most of it should be self-explanatory. The number on the left is a frame count of Popo's current action. Blue actions represent Popo, pink actions represent Nana. All hitlag and shield stun will be highlighted in green. When Popo and Nana are synched, Nana mimics Popo 6 frames afterward, so I will only show her shieldstun (unless they're desynched).

    Early B-air to D-smash

    1 Start Jump
    2
    3
    1 Airborne, Start B-air
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6
    7
    8
    9
    10

    11 B-air Hits (7 Frames of Hitlag Omitted)
    12 Shield Stun (1)
    13 Shield Stun (2)
    14 Shield Stun (3)
    15 Shield Stun (4)
    16 Shield Stun (5)
    17 Shield Stun (6)

    18 Shield Stun (7)
    19 Shield Stun (2)
    20 Shield Stun (3)
    21 Shield Stun (4)
    1 Landing Lag, Shield Stun (5)
    2 Landing Lag, Shield Stun (6)
    3 Landing Lag, Shield Stun (7)

    4 Landing Lag
    5 Start D-smash
    6
    7
    8
    9

    10 D-smash Hits

    Notes: This assumes you input b-air and fastfall on the first possible frames. While b-air's hitbox comes out on frame 8, it doesn't seem to hit behind you until frame 11. The window between b-air and d-smash could potentially be two frames smaller depending on how you time the b-air. This is your bread and butter; often your opponent will try to punish the b-air, and instead jump right into the d-smash.

    Desynched D-smash

    1 Start D-smash
    2
    3
    4
    5

    6 D-smash Hits, Hitlag (1)
    6 Hitlag (2)
    6 Hitlag (3)
    6 Hitlag (4)
    6 Hitlag (5)
    6 Hitlag (6)
    6 Hitlag (7)
    7 Shield Stun (1)
    8 Shield Stun (2)
    9 Shield Stun (3)
    10 Shield Stun (4)
    11 Shield Stun (5)
    12 Shield Stun (6)
    13 Shield Stun (7)

    14
    15 Start D-smash
    16
    17
    18
    19

    20 D-smash Hits, Hitlag (1)
    21 Hitlag (2)
    22 Hitlag (3)
    23 Hitlag (4)
    24 Hitlag (5)
    25 Hitlag (6)
    26 Hitlag (7)
    27 Shield Stun (1)
    28 Shield Stun (2)
    29 Shield Stun (3)
    30 Shield Stun (4)
    31 Shield Stun (5)
    32 Shield Stun (6)
    33 Shield Stun (7)

    34
    35
    36
    Start D-smash…

    Notes: There are alternating windows of 6 frames and 7 frames between d-smashes. Although the d-smashes are relatively punishable, the ratio of out-of-stun to in-stun is small, so your opponent might struggle timing anything properly. There will always be 13 dead frames total, but you can alter the size of each window to make it more difficult for your opponent to escape. These are easy to perform, and can wear a shield down quickly.

    Desynched Perfect B-air

    1 *Hitlag (5), Start Jump
    2 Hitlag (6)
    3 Hitlag (7)
    1 Shield Stun (1), Start B-air
    2 Shield Stun (2)
    3 Shield Stun (3)
    4 Shield Stun (4)
    5 Shield Stun (5), Fastfall
    6 Shield Stun (6)
    7 Shield Stun (7)

    8
    9
    10

    11 B-air Hits, Hitlag (1)
    11 Hitlag (2)
    11 Hitlag (3)
    11 Hitlag (4)
    11 Hitlag (5), Start Jump
    11 Hitlag (6)
    11 Hitlag (7)
    12 Shield Stun (1), Start B-air
    13 Shield Stun (2)
    14 Shield Stun (3)
    15 Shield Stun (4)
    16 Shield Stun (5), Fastfall
    17 Shield Stun (6)
    18 Shield Stun (7)

    19
    20
    21

    1 Landing Lag, B-air Hits, Hitlag (1)
    2 Landing Lag, Hitlag (2)
    3 Landing Lag, Hitlag (3)
    4 Landing Lag, Hitlag (4)*


    Notes: This may or may not be humanly possible. It’s kind of like multishining, but likely much harder to learn because the inputs are so specific. This would be our most realistic shield break if we could master it.

    Late B-air​


    1 Start Jump
    2
    3
    1 Airborne
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6
    7
    8
    9
    10
    11 Start B-air
    12
    13
    14
    15
    16 Fastfall
    17
    18
    19
    20

    21 B-air Hits (7 Frames of Hitlag Omitted)
    1 L-cancel, Shield Stun (1)
    2 L-cancel, Shield Stun (2)
    3 L-cancel, Shield Stun (3)
    4 L-cancel, Shield Stun (4)
    5 L-cancel, Shield Stun (5)
    6 L-cancel, Shield Stun (6)
    7 L-cancel, Shield Stun (7)
    8 L-cancel, Shield Stun (2)
    9 L-cancel, Shield Stun (3)
    10 L-cancel, Shield Stun (4)
    1 Start D-smash, Shield Stun (5)
    2 Shield Stun (6)
    3 Shield Stun (7)

    4
    5

    6 D-smash Hits (7 Frames of Hitlag Omitted)
    7 Shield Stun (1)
    8 Shield Stun (2)
    9 Shield Stun (3)
    10 Shield Stun (4), Last Frame of Landing Lag
    11 Shield Stun (5)
    12 Shield Stun (6)
    13 Shield Stun (7)


    Notes: If you input l-cancel slightly before hitting the ground, Nana will not l-cancel, leaving her with 10 additional frames of landing lag. F-air can be used in place of b-air; it's functionally the same except that it has 2 less frames of shield stun. F-air is probably easier to time though, because if you sh f-air and fastfall on the first possible frame, the hitbox will come out on frame 20 or 21 of your jump anyway.

    From the l-cancel desynch, you have several options. In this example, you can go straight into desynched d-smashes with only 2 dead frames between the b-air and the first d-smash. Alternatively, you can u-tilt with Popo (assuming you're close enough for it to land), which comes out 2 frames slower than d-smash, but has 40 frames of hitlag/stun and gives Nana plenty of time to do anything.
     
  2. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
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    More to come, if people are interested, including:

    - blizzard maybe
    - u-tilt tricks?
    - guaranteed shieldbreak?
    - jabs
    - other stuff if people request it
     
  3. INSANE CARZY GUY

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    if they sheild a de-synced blizzard your doing something wrong by not grabing that should be a solid set-up unless they light sheild and are luigi or something.

    also another important topic for sheild pressure would be to bait it however because the ice climbers don't really approach so they really woudn't need to sheild we mostly punish mistakes. however maybe de-synced ice block to WD bair may work.

    also looking at this data what if we autocancel bair into a jab couch and grab? looking at the frame data here that would would amazingly seeing how jab would be your fastest option.

    also you can autocancel upair maybe you should look into that it would also punish them if they try to nair out of sheild or grab. and set-up more upairs or a grab.

    also i'm thinking this would have to be on people like gannon falcon it just seems fitting.
     
  4. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
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    I'm gonna add jab later. There's something like 9 frames in between jab cancel grab, 6 in between consecutive jab cancels, and 5 in between jab -> backswing (second jab).

    Besides being really aggressive and convincing them to shield more, you can try look for their shielding habits. Some people will shield after they whiff a move, after they get up from a tech, etc. Obviously there are situations when you just want to go for the grab, but sometimes you might be in a position where it's better to b-air/f-air. I can't really think of many off the top of my head, but I know I end up using b-air -> d-smash in a lot of matches.
     
  5. INSANE CARZY GUY

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    how well does it work? I know it works amazingly because it's down-smash but yeah how do they react?

    d*** down-smash does EVERYTHING now even sheild pressure I love you for using down-smash more for fun reasons.
     
  6. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
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    Potential shieldbreak:

    1 *Start U-tilt
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6
    7
    8 Small Hit, Hitlag (1)
    8 Hitlag (2)
    8 Hitlag (3)
    9 Shield Stun (1)
    10 Shield Stun (2)
    11 Small Hit, Hitlag (1)
    11 Hitlag (2)
    11 Hitlag (3)
    12 Shield Stun (1)
    13 Shield Stun (2)
    14 Small Hit, Hitlag (1)
    14 Hitlag (2)
    14 Hitlag (3)
    15 Shield Stun (1)
    16 Shield Stun (2)
    17 Small Hit, Hitlag (1)
    17 Hitlag (2)
    17 Hitlag (3)
    18 Shield Stun (1)
    19 Shield Stun (2)
    20 Small Hit, Hitlag (1)
    20 Hitlag (2)
    20 Hitlag (3)
    21 Shield Stun (1)
    22 Shield Stun (2)
    23 Small Hit, Hitlag (1)
    23 Hitlag (2)
    23 Hitlag (3)
    24 Shield Stun (1)
    25 Shield Stun (2)
    26 Final Hit, Hitlag (1)
    26 Hitlag (2)
    26 Hitlag (3)
    26 Hitlag (4) Start U-tilt
    26 Hitlag (5)
    27 Shield Stun (1)
    28 Shield Stun (2)
    29 Shield Stun (3)
    30 Shield Stun (4)
    31 Shield Stun (5)
    32 U-tilt Hits...
    33
    34
    35
    36
    37
    38
    39
    40
    41
    1 Jump
    2
    3
    4 Airborne, Airdodge
    1 Wavedash
    2 Wavedash
    3 Wavedash
    4 Wavedash
    5 Wavedash
    6 Wavedash
    7 Wavedash
    8 Wavedash
    9 Wavedash
    10 Wavedash*


    U-tilt basically consists of a bunch of small hits (3 hitlag, 2 shield stun) and then one final hit (5 hitlag, 5 shield stun). At first I noticed that desynched u-tilt could easily keep somebody in their shield indefinitely, but as it turns out, the final hit pushes them too far away for this to work. U-tilt still has plenty of hitlag and shieldstun, however, and you can actually fit in a wavedash (or run and crouch) and still never let them out of stun.

    To see that it works, count 40 frames (hitlag/stun) from where Nana's u-tilt starts, then 10 frames of cooldown lag, 4 for jump, and 10 more for wavedash. It links back to her starting frame, and there is actually some extra leeway (their stun frames overlap).

    Edit -- This idea has some major flaws, depending on what version of the game you're playing. In 1.0/1.1, after your first (fresh) u-tilt, every hit of u-tilt does less than 1% (except the very last hit). This is normally a good thing, because it means your opponent can't sdi out of it, but for shield pressure it's not so good; the small hits will deal no shield stun and only one frame of hitlag, making it very easy to buffer roll escape.

    In 1.2+, moves that deal less than 1% do not have this property, so each small hit does 3 hitlag and 2 hitstun, and what I posted above will work. However, since your opponent is constantly being put in hitlag, they can easily shield di out by holding away, so continuous u-tilts are probably not practical.
     
  7. ChivalRuse

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    Turning around and grabbing after the bairs would only be a few frames slower, yes? Would auto-cancelled bair -> grab be a legitimate mixup?
     
  8. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
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    Turnaround grab would be 2 frames slower, and would only work if the other player sits in their shield. It might be worth doing once they realize that you keep hitting them with d-smash, and start waiting for it (people have done this to me, albeit rarely). In my experience, though, d-smash is the better option, because people will usually react to the first move that hits their shield.
     
  9. INSANE CARZY GUY

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    I would think jab to grab would work more stun harder to escape. also maybe you should look into SHing down-B on their sheild that should do a lot of sheild stun and it's one of the rare cases of down-B hitting and not automaticly going for a grab. also if SH down-B works ice climbers will moe up one spot on the tier list for that sheild pressure that or take like 20%, totally **** space control, near impossible to outrange/beat and an air approach as them if you can find some kind of sheild pressure follow up.
     
  10. Binx

    Binx
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    down b does a lot of shield stun but it pokes really easily and so it wouldn't really be for pressure, plus there are tons of opportunities to buffer a roll
     
  11. INSANE CARZY GUY

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    use that's what I thought if it did have enough sheild stun to pressure with sh down-B would **** everything and you really couldn't do much about it. you just lost a lot of space to work with and are more trapped than before.
     
  12. PEEF!

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    AWESOME:

    Kyu you know I like stuff like this. I'm with you all the way and I will help/give imput when I can.

    Be sure (in order to keep a thread like this organized) to put all of your useful posts into the OP, like the Utilt thing. Copy paste that up in there so it's all collected.

    This is really cool.
     
  13. Kyu Puff

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    The u-tilt thing unfortunately seems like it would be too escapable. According to Magus, in 1.0/1.1, it only has hitlag and shield stun when it is completely fresh; if you whiff a single hitbox of the u-tilt, it stales to less than 1% and the other player can simply roll away. So it might work in 1.2+ (where moves that do less than 1% still have hitlag and shield stun), but it doesn't seem practical because of how far the other player can move with shield di. :(
     
  14. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    If they were at the edge, what could they do?
     
  15. Kyu Puff

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    It's possible that it could work against a ledge or a wall (then the only thing you have to watch for is shield stab), but next to a ledge, Nana u-tilt -> grab would probably be better unless you just want to do something really flashy.
     
  16. Winston

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    shield DI away and slide off and grab the edge?
     
  17. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
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    I want to look into ice blocks (synched/desynched) on shield. I know that at certain angles, they will bounce on the top of someone's shield up to three (four?) times before they disappear, keeping them in shield stun the entire time.

    There should be some way to abuse this, but there isn't really enough information to make an accurate chart -- I don't know if you can hit with the hammer part and still produce a bouncing ice block, how many frames are in between each bounce, or how long sh ice block keeps you in the air. It would make for an interesting action replay project though.
     
  18. INSANE CARZY GUY

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    hmm any idea about how well f-tilt works?f-tilt does a lot of damage and i'm pretty sure they can de-synce from spaming f-tilt.
     
  19. Kyu Puff

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    Desynched f-tilts have alternating windows of 5 and 6 dead frames (the same as synched jabs, but probably a little better because they deal more shield damage).
     
  20. PEEF!

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    I can never get desynced ftilts to go very fast -__-
     
  21. blindfreak9

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    Personally, the best way for me to shield pressure is to advance towards the enemy with wd ice blocks, and once near them have nana use blizzard while popo wd's and jabs until the blizzard is over then, while popo is finishing up the jabbing, nana wd's and grabs. Works for me and hope this helped.

    :phone:
     
  22. ant-d

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    A bouncing ice-block causes 5 frames of shield stun.
    There are 18 frames between each shield hit.

    This is for a single ice-block
     
  23. Kyu Puff

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    Thanks! Is 18 counting from the first frame it hits, or the frame after?
     
  24. Hozart

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    Good thread.

    The desynched d-smashes sounds most viable to me.

    Wavedash towards the opponent, predict they'll shield your incoming d-smash. Instead, quickly dash forward, pivot the opposite direction of your wavedash, and your d-smashed is desynched with back-to-back hits. If you know how to pivot effortlessly already, this will be easy to apply.

    Once I master this for in-combat application, I'll try to demonstrate this on video at some point.

    I would like to add the desynched b-airs to my game, but I don't know a fast desynch to achieve this. Any ideas?
     
  25. leffen

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    IC's shield pressure is basically catching their wd/jump oos and punishing holding shield + everything else with grab.
     
  26. Fly_Amanita

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    Leffen has the right idea.

    Anyways, here's a post I made in the General ICs thread about shield pressure a while ago:
     
  27. N1c2k3

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    Thanks for that, Fly...
     
  28. Kyu Puff

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    I'm planning to update this thread soon. I just want to point out that there are a few inaccuracies in the original post; namely

    1) B-air comes out on frame 8, not frame 11
    2) Nana's reads inputs 6 frames late, which means the timings for Nana should all be shifted 6 frames earlier

    These don't affect the dead frame/shield stun calculations, but they do affect the specific timings of each move, so I'll make corrections as soon as I have time. I'm also planning to add some more practical applications, and possibly Ice Blocks for fun.
     
    SHIP likes this.
  29. DerfMidWest

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    I think it should be noted, as leffen said, what makes ICs terrifying on shields is that they can lock a person in shieldstun long enough to get a grab.
    Because of this I'm a big fan of things like solo-fair/AC bair->nana dsmash->popo grab. The dsmash catches jump OoS incredibly well.

    Spaced fair->jab is also safe on shield.
     

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