Ice Climbers+ (Popo and his dimwitted frie- i mean Nana)

[FrozenHobo]

i actually like the exchange. Nana gets SA frames on the grab, plus IASA right out of the animation. combos get sick. if you guy wanna drop them, fine. i 'll just be the only IC+ main. better tourney results if nobody knows how to play against them.

karate, keep in mind that it was the idea from the beginning to remove CGs. this way we at least get some kind of compensation for their loss.

 

[Deleted member]

Nana gets SA frames on the grab, plus IASA right out of the animation.

I'm not noticing the SA, which frames is it on? And IASA at the beginning would be far more useful. This on just seems useful for starting desynchs to me.

if you guy wanna drop them, fine. i 'll just be the only IC+ main. better tourney results if nobody knows how to play against them.

I said I wasn't dropping them.

 

[KarateF22]

Ok, so maybe i was being a bit dramatic saying I will drop IC's, but my point still stands.... Nana losing her grab is essentially making IC's a completely different character than they used to be, changing their very CORE GAME. They won't be ice climbers to me anymore.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I'm not noticing the SA, which frames is it on? And IASA at the beginning would be far more useful. This on just seems useful for starting desynchs to me.

I said I wasn't dropping them.

SA is during where the grab box would have been. you can cancel it 10 frames after the move starts, which is still a considerable amount of time before popo ends his animation.

Ok, so maybe i was being a bit dramatic saying I will drop IC's, but my point still stands.... Nana losing her grab is essentially making IC's a completely different character than they used to be, changing their very CORE GAME. They won't be ice climbers to me anymore.

whats your point? they play differently than in vBrawl. i thought that was the point of playing B+: its not vBrawl. yes, they removed their CGs, but they've given them more desync options. the idea behind this hack is to make a fluid game that feels fast and leads to more combos. CGs are not combos. desyncs are combos. rather than a shoddy fix via code, they decided to go to the source and remove nana's grab to eliminate the CGs. they've removed every other character's CGs, why leave ICs alone? because its their "core game"? if you ask me thats a pretty ****ing lame core game. B+ has always had the mindset of shifting them from grabs to desyncs and now that they're doing that you feel that they've changed too much. i don't want to sound rude, but make up your **** mind. do you want change, or do you want the same thing? yes, they play differently now, but thats because you have the mindset of grab -> kill, not work -> kill. learn how to actually do work and get creative with the character. they actually have a fantastic desync game now that makes them almost impossible to punish if played right. just try the ****ing thing before you go on a rant about how terrible they are.

 

[crazycrackers]

Hobo,

I hope you realize one of the major, and in many instances the key reason why people even pick up ICs in the first place is because of their grab game. And they do play differently than vbrawl, but up until now they've still retained a grab-based style, so they're actually changing a lot simply in brawl+ standards, not vbrawl to brawl+. We all know they have a great desynch game. Thats not the POINT. He's just expressing his opinion about the changes for god's sake. Why don't you just calm down and not have a heart attack when someone disagrees with you.

 

[FrozenHobo]

its not a problem with me, its a problem with his inability to accept change. it was decided from the beginning that CGs would be removed. as soon as they actually start doing something effective about it he flips out, completely ignoring any possible buffs they might have gotten in exchange. he (and apparently the rest of you) seem be under the impression that ICs can not function in this game without a grab game, while the entire idea behind nerfing their grab game is to allow for buffs in the rest of their game, giving them a deeper level of play than "spam grab". god forbid you actually try and use the inherent abilities of the ICs besides their grab game. i mean, what could they possibly do other than grab? maybe you (collective) should try playing the new climbers than instantly condemn any changes to them. yes, lets close our minds to anything that might make the character more intuitive. there's some nice sand over there for us to burry out heads in.

 

[crazycrackers]

Wow. I'm actually laughing.

Did I not SAY "we all know they have a great desynch game"? And god forbid you actually consider for a second that I HAVE tried the new ICs and didn't personally complain about them. Its almost like...if you read my post, you'll see I'm trying to express the thoughts of someone ELSE? Confusing I know.

Have you even thought of the possibility, that if someone picks up a character for a certain reason, and that factor becomes completely inexistent, they might switch off of that character? His inability to adapt isn't a "problem" at all. If he doesn't want to play that character because they're in a way, not the same character to him, or "all of us" according to you (even though I specifically made it clear I was not a part of this), is it actually a problem? Have you for one second considered that no one is objecting to a deeper ICs, and maybe, just maybe, some people just don't LIKE the changes? In other words, its his OPINION.

Oh wait. No, that must be impossible. Rather, anyone who doesn't accept these huge changes with open arms is simply an adamant grab spammer who is completely against the deepening of their character's metagame. Sounds about right to me.

 

[Revven]

Just wanted to clarify:

The idea for ICs was to remove the infinite, not their CGs. However, when PK tried to fix the infinite there still were infinites just harder to perform (however not hard enough to take weeks upon weeks to learn ofc). So that code was in sets for a good while, and then her grab was removed completely.

I don't know the reason for the sudden change in philosophy for the ICs because I was not apart of the making of GSH1-6.0. It's likely though the reason is because getting rid of her grab makes what would likely be a ***** to actually try and fix with PSA (while retaining CGs) also deepen their game rather than relying on spacing into grabs or Side B into grabs or what have you. However, that is merely an assumption on my part. If you want the real reason it's probably best to ask Cape or Veril about the decision.

Other than that, the grab removal is probably going to stay so whining about it without even giving it a chance just proves to us that a changelist being released on day 1 of the 6.0 set would have just given us arguments rather than feedback. Which for me, is extremely frustrating and annoying.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Ignored Falco's post and still lol'd at Cracker's sn00ty *** post.

 

[FrozenHobo]

his mindset when viewing these changes (at least from what i can tell from his posts) is that "they're changing them from vBrawl and i don't like that". to that i have to ask why the **** you even want to use them in B+ to begin with, knowing that the final outcome would be the CGs would be removed. this isn't a new decision by the developers, it was agreed upon by the community. we had a vote. he was there. if the news that they can't CG anymore comes as such a huge surprise then i want him to drop the character. if he seriously can't accept that the change they said was coming is here, then i don't know what else i can say.

 

[crazycrackers]

I don't really understand the intense dramatics behind it, but I understand your point.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i like arguing. there really is no reason for heated argument, but my family is from jersey and we love to fight.

 

[Isatis]

Yes, but my family is from Baltimore and I'm the only one in the family that doesn't like to eat crabs, even with Old Bay seasoning.<!--

I had to explain to Neko I was comparing something that Hobo's family liked to do with what my family liked to do... I still fail btw -->

Debate, even if it is a bit heated is good, just don't let it devolve into flaming

 

[Deleted member]

knowing that the final outcome would be the CGs would be removed.

Not true, the WBR said they would remove the Infinites, not the CGs, and I remember someone explicitly stating they would not do so by removing Nana's ability to grab. (Looking for source right now.)

this isn't a new decision by the developers, it was agreed upon by the community. we had a vote.

If I understand what you are referring to, the poll is here, feel free to look at the results. Not that I think that poll has any validity, since it was public, and we had no way of controlling who was allowed to vote, i.e. People who had at least played Brawl+.

Hell, I'm not really mad because IC don't have CGs anymore, I'm displeased by the way they removed them. Though, I understand this is the easiest and most effective way of doing so.
I'd be a happy camper again if Nana just had lagless ledges.

 

[carlisha57]

Ice climbers are really daring and adventureous Ok, so maybe i was being a bit dramatic saying I will drop IC's, but my point still stands.... Nana losing her grab is essentially making IC's a completely different character than they used to be,
_____________________________
Central London Hotel

 

[Jam23]

Ice climbers are really daring and adventureous Ok, so maybe i was being a bit dramatic saying I will drop IC's, but my point still stands.... Nana losing her grab is essentially making IC's a completely different character than they used to be,
_____________________________
Central London Hotel

I sooooo agree wit you. I didn't notice at first but when I try to blizzard into a grab with Nana she always missed and I was like WTF!?

I'm down for the removal of infinites but I THINK Ice Climbers should be able to chain grab to a certain extent because that is there metagame. Nana wihtout grabs, that is completely absurd. This makes you fight in a whole new way because unless you are playing against a fast faller in Brawl+ you pretty much have to hit and run, which is garbage since I thought the point of IC's were to make people fear approaching which is now completely void because of the removal of nana grab. With Brawl+ 6.0 it seems a lot of combo potential was removed from this version. That makes it harder for IC's to pull off a decent combo unless they're a fast faller.

I will admit that desyncing is a bit easier now but my style never really favored it and it usually happens when I really need it or don't so that isn't a major plus to me. To me their best combo is grab>dthrow>fair>fsmash but that doesn't even work like that because it feels laggish when tryin to do that.