Ice Climber's grabs and desynces

[Iceman]

I was hoping we could have an organized thread devoted to the various new Ice Climbers tech in Project M and review the relevant tech from older games. I've seen alot of things posted in the other threads on this character discussion page, so I ask those people in particular to please share their knowledge. I'm a new Ice Climbers player and I would thankful for any type of direction. Thanks again. I hope we can all help each other.

 

[Iceman]

There is one thing that concerns me at the moment. I understand how to do some desynces, but what are some effective ways to use them? They take time and room to set up, so I sometimes find myself getting rushed down. I really want to be able to control my space with desync walls. What are some quick desynces and what moves do you tend to use as a followup?

 

[GeZ]

I want this thread to get more traffic just because I'm mad fresh to Ice Climbers and want to learn some cool ****. To pitch in something I heard and then applied, if you press up on the Cstick while in shield NaNa will Usmash while PoPo jumps. So something that I elaborated from that was Usmash hop desync, Dair with PoPo to bring them back to the ground, Side B with NaNa that will trigger without PoPo and then grab from PoPo. It's pretty neat though I've only just got it down in the lab. Can anyone point to why it may or may not work or be good tech?

Edit: I'm just going to keep adding everything I find through research or happenstance til other, more so well versed, IC players come in and start showing me what's what.
I found the Ice Block Desync which lets you shoot Ice Blocks syncopated between NaNa and PoPo for more tight volleys. It's performed by spot dodging and holding B during the spot dodge, when the spot dodge ends, NaNa throws an Ice Block and you can press B to have PoPo throw one during NaNa's recovery, and then again to have them take turns chucking them. The spot dodge, hold down, desync actually applies to a lot of **** as you can do any smash or special out of the dodge that way.
Something I saw using that desync that seems INCREDIBLY hard but too stronk, was Wavedashing between Ice Blocks. So it's the Ice Block Desync but instead of just pressing B during the other climbers recovery, you're WDing forward or back and then doing Ice Block, letting the IC's effectively push forward during each other's specials.

These characters are too cool and I want to learn more about their crazy desyncs and grab tricks.

 

[GeZ]

I will say there are a LOT of desynchs and some pretty crazy ones, I can desynch while doing pretty much anything in PM and it feels great.

Some things to start people off:

Pivot desynch: Just pivot a move and you will desynch. This is most commonly used with iceblock, pivot and iceblock with popo and then have nana blizzard to keep the desynch going.

Reverse initial dash(RID): Dash the opposite direction you are facing and at the end of the dash you can desynch(again you will usually use an iceblock though blizzard can be super good out of this). This desynch is fairly hard but pretty insane as you can just run after your iceblock and can get some crazy surprises.

Squall desynch: You can desynch at the end of squall and have nana go straight into an iceblock/blizzard or grab.


Dash dance desynch(brawl): Instead of doing the long melee dash dances for spacing, just do a very quick small dashdance on on the 3rd control stick input nana will desynch, try it out with iceblock.

I've got a pretty good mastery of Brawl's and feel pretty good with melee's :shrug:

Aside from 3 dash dances you can also quickly do two dashes and ice block/blizzard which is pretty quick. IMO 2 dash desync is the best goto since it's really fast and really practical.

The melee ICs should try doing consecutive shorthop/fullhop blizzards, it seems pretty powerful in PM. Shorthopping away from the opponent and using popo blizzard is a good escape tool as well as a good way to set up your wall. You can also b reverse Ice blocks and blizzards making your wall that much better.

They also gave Popo a CG to the ledge at really really low percents like Marth fthrow. So you can do that into hand offs. Only works on some characters and tbh idk if guaranteed (Falco) but try it out.


Here is just some random Brawl stuff I noticed

If you run and turn around, release the analog, the following input you do only Nana will do it.

If you do a pivot you retain the options you had from desync storing in Brawl. So if you pivot Nana will run and Popo will walk. If you grab, Nana will dash grab, do an attack Nana will dash attack. At mid percents, if you dsmash it will combo into dash attack allowing for follow ups. If you input a dash and then use an ice block, only Nana will ice block.


And some new developments.

If you shield and use cstick to upsmash, Nana will upsmash while Popo jumps.

Lastly idk how useful since PM is pretty fast but if you try to LD1 out of shield or basically hold shield and flick backwards as your shield drops and input an ice block, the climbers will just stand there and Nana will input an Ice Block.


Some interesting finds, I can't wait to see what else is discovered. Keep searching everyone!

A few things ive picked up:

Dthrow>nana squall hammer can let you get a few regrabs. If they start to DI out, we have enough time to react accordingly. If you get a regrab off it, mix it up.

Dthrow>fsmash is a good kill move.

Dthrow>fair still works like in brawl, and you can even spike with it. Make sure nana jumps forward.

Uthrow>nana back air works. If you just wanna style on someone go for it I guess.

Popo blizzard+ nana fair is still a good desynch wall.

Roll>shield>input is a useful desynch(along with spot dodge>any special) These two create OoS options.


Also one thing I found that is interesting is that if we grab and then have nana ice block and down throw immedietly after, you will down throw them into the back of the ice block. What this does is it knocks the opponent out of the grab, so both players end up in a stand still. Depending on how the opponent reacts, you can regrab and possibly create a pseudo-infinite.

So ICs do have an infinite although situational.

If you grab someone near the ledge and are facing away from it, you can dthrow to Nana and Nana will always bthrow. You can just rinse and repeat this. Ways to set it up would probably be like dthrow > side b > pivot grab.


Edit: Here's a video

Cataloging for use.

 

[Iceman]

Thanks for all the input GeZ! I'm glad I finally have someone else on the thread. I tried your upsmash out of shield desync combo and I was able to get the regrab, but I need to try against a person before I can its potential. Also have you tried the ice block chaingrab from Enemy's post? I don't think I'm doing it right. When I grab Popo still has control, so do I jab first and then ice block-down throw?

 

[GeZ]

Thanks for all the input GeZ! I'm glad I finally have someone else on the thread. I tried your upsmash out of shield desync combo and I was able to get the regrab, but I need to try against a person before I can its potential. Also have you tried the ice block chaingrab from Enemy's post? I don't think I'm doing it right. When I grab Popo still has control, so do I jab first and then ice block-down throw?

I'm pretty sure you jab and then Ice Block Dthrow. Jab seems to be the only way of keeping PoPo from throwing when he's got a hold of them. And I'm glad you started this thread. It's exactly what I was looking for, and it just needs more traffic to become awesome.

 

[Iceman]

Well now that we are providing a small amount of traffic it should at least stay near the top of the list. I've found that desynches were alot easier when I remembered that you can buffer rolls with the c-stick. It makes setting up feel quicker. What is your favorite option after a spot-dodge desynch? I like Nana-downb to Popo sideb, or I like setting up the Nanapult if I want to pressure from far away.

 

[GeZ]

I've been trying to work on WD'd Iceblocks but as of now my favorite out of spot dodge is NaNa SH Ice Block PoPo SideB. Also I just found a really weird glitch. If when doing the Up Cstick Dair desync I was describing earlier instead of pressing side B for NaNa you hold the buttons she won't do Side B but instead teleport forward 4 character spaces. haven't figured out what to do with it yet but it's pretty neat. And since I've discovered it I dub it NaNa Popping.

 

[Iceman]

Interesting. This hasn't happened to me yet. I'll definitely look out for this. Nana Popping lol. I feel like this is the real fun of unique character. You get to make up names for all the new stuff.

 

[GeZ]

I'll copy all of the stuff I posted on it from the other thread, I actually found out a lot and changed the name to something less silly.

I just found a really weird glitch. If when doing the Up Cstick Dair desync you hold Side B instead of just pressing and letting go she won't do Side B but instead teleport forward 4 character spaces. haven't figured out what to do with it yet but it's pretty neat. And since I've discovered it I dub it NaNa Port, though I'm open to name suggestions since mine is kind of lukewarm.​

Edit: Holy hell, if you hold Side B until NaNa teleports and then let go when she appears she'll side B from where she is back at the opponent though it can be tough to do consistently. This is awesome. It even works if you don't hit the opponent. I'm going to try and get a recording of this on my ****ty phone and get it put up soon. So far I've only found a little application since NaNa seems to want to run back to PoPo after about a second of standing further ahead, but it works as a desync for PoPo.

 

[Iceman]

You don't like the name Nana porting? It's not bad. We need to get Hylian over here.

 

[GeZ]

You don't like the name Nana porting? It's not bad. We need to get Hylian over here.

Or I forgot I decided to stick with Nana Porting lol. I actually do like it. And Getting Hylian in on this would be handy.

 

[Hylian]

I'm already in on it and have been discussing it with some people >_>.

This looks like something we would want to remove as it's clearly a glitch, if we can't then *shrugs* it won't be that big of a deal probably.

 

[GeZ]

Well crush my dreams why don't you. I'd like to submit that a lot (as in most of) tech from Melee consists of glitches or manipulation of an engine that was not designed to do what it's doing. So getting rid of something on the basis of being a glitch doesn't really fit, But oh well. Did I at least discover this glitch, or was it found earlier by someone else?

 

[Hylian]

As far as I know you discovered it. Also, we may not be able to remove it so don't give up hope yet haha, it looks pretty complicated. I'm looking into it now though.

 

[GeZ]

To help along investigation and reach a conclusion faster I'd like to pitch in what I know about the glitch. It can only trigger on Popo's Dair, as any other normal or special will have side B come out like normal. Sometimes when it's performed wrong, Nana will blink out of the picture for a second, but be back exactly where she was instead of forward. And it seems to give the IC's some sort of longer range on their syncronization as after they've separated, you can dash in the opposite direction of Nana, and then Dash Dance and Nana will mimic the dash dance from that far distance when she would normally just return to Popo.

 

[DerfMidWest]

from what I've noticed, spotdodge and roll desyncs will only work if you release your shield in the animation (similar to how wavedash OoS works)
I think its a stupid mechanic, since you have to release your shield to do stuff, but w/e.

 

[Iceman]

It's whatever. Spotdodge and roll desyncs are still my favorite desyncs at the moment. It seems like they are the easiest way to desync on the fly. It helps me get out some pressure and set a good defense

 

[GeZ]

I've been really enjoying the Dash Dance desync on account of how easy it is to bust out. Is there any tip for the SHFFL Nair desync or is it just precise timing to get it to work? That seems to be the one I have the most trouble with right now.

 

[Iceman]

I haven't tried this desync yet. Does it work because Nana doesn't L-cancel?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'm not new to everyones favorite husband and wife, but I never played them in a technical fashion. I need help, tell me how to build my Ice Climber couple from the GROUND UP.

 

[Iceman]

Well if you want to start from the ground up then there are certain desyncs you want to learn. The spot dodge, roll, and two dash desyncs are the most useful in my opinion. You want to practice them until they feel natural so you can start keeping them desynced. Wavedash out of shield is very crucial to the Ice Climbers game. There are tons of guides in the Melee Ice Climbers forum that still have relevant information. I think Fly Amanita's guide was the best in my opinion.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

To help along investigation and reach a conclusion faster I'd like to pitch in what I know about the glitch. It can only trigger on Popo's Dair, as any other normal or special will have side B come out like normal. Sometimes when it's performed wrong, Nana will blink out of the picture for a second, but be back exactly where she was instead of forward. And it seems to give the IC's some sort of longer range on their syncronization as after they've separated, you can dash in the opposite direction of Nana, and then Dash Dance and Nana will mimic the dash dance from that far distance when she would normally just return to Popo.

Useful application for the side be desync: using it to recover and landing with it and starting the side b desync.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Well if you want to start from the ground up then there are certain desyncs you want to learn. The spot dodge, roll, and two dash desyncs are the most useful in my opinion. You want to practice them until they feel natural so you can start keeping them desynced. Wavedash out of shield is very crucial to the Ice Climbers game. There are tons of guides in the Melee Ice Climbers forum that still have relevant information. I think Fly Amanita's guide was the best in my opinion.

I'll check them out, thanks, could you explain how to use those desyncs, if you don't mind.

 

[Iceman]

Well if you do a roll or a spotdodge you can desync the Climbers and Nana will do any movement you input during the roll or spotdodge. You can also do this faster if you know how to buffer rolls and spotdodges. You can use the cstick instead of the control stick, and using the cstick will allow you roll or spotdodge on the earliest possible frame. The two dash desync involves just moving back and then forward and inputting a move. Nana cannot dash dance properly so this lets her do a move. Blizzard is the easiest thing to do out of a two dash desync. I believe this is all covered in the Fly Amanita guide in the melee section.

 

[Ringbearer]

This thread is kinda barren. Makin' me sad.

Here's a link to the Fly Aminata guide from melee, as a few people have been referencing it: http://smashboards.com/threads/varokaa-heikkoa-jäätä.317195/

Most of the grab info is still highly relevant for PM ICs, though I've found that a well-timed f-throw to nana dair works better on some characters/at different percentages than the d-throw to nana dair. Between these two variations, I seem to be able to chain grab pretty much every character except jigglypuff, provided I pick the right method, read opponent's DI correctly, and don't mess up the execution.

Anyone else find any chains to be particularly brutal? Wobbling (rightly so, in my opinion) is gone, but the ICs still easily have the highest potential to rack up damage across the entire cast once they land that first grab.

 

[Ringbearer]

I'ma try again. Just cause.

I've tried using Nana to footstool jump in order to set up chain grabs, but idk how feasible this is/isn't yet. Only practiced against Roy, but after 10% damage or so, it seems you can guarantee a footstool jump to regrab for a long time. The trick is doing a light footstool jump so Nana gets back to you quicker. Seems like it would be too easy to mash out of at most percents while waiting for her. But I figured I'd mention it; maybe someone will have better luck applying it than I did. I was using the X button as my footstool/taunt.

Another thing I'm trying to find application for is having Nana use squall hammer while Popo has the grab. It seems there is some potential for easy regrabs if Popo d- or f-throws at the right moment and Nana is the right distance away from him, but I can't figure out anything too consistent across different characters and damage percentages yet. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[KingDozie]

I think side b/blizzards desynches work well on heavies and charcs that cant apprach.

I

 

[Iceman]

Popo downthrow to Nana side-b to regrab is pretty good. You have to be alittle patient and see if land in front or behind Nana. I think that Blizzard-side-b and Blizzard-uptilt are really good desynces out of shield. You can really catch someone off guard and control your space.

 

[Iceman]

An interesting grab is downthrow to Ice block. If you get it right and make the opponent hit the back of the Ice block, then they kinda reset to a standing position so you can grab them again.

 

[KingDozie]

wow really cool stuff iceman. Upthrow to FaIr works well at high % on floaties and for fastfallers it could led to a techchases like Dthrow to Fair.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah they have alot of cool tricks, but what do you guys do in the neutral game? I recently played a Marth and a Link, and they are very interesting matchups. It seems like it is all spacing, so what do you do to keep Nana safe and set yourself up for grabs.

 

[KingDozie]

dude i got a lot of matchup information i can post it but its spacies and sheik. I can start a matchup thread.

 

[KingDozie]

Hey iceman do you have any combo finisher on floaties.

 

[Iceman]

Well I have a very grab oriented style, so I tend to get as much out of grabs as possible. So I like pummel-charge fsmash-downthrow-fsmash or pummel-charge upsmash-dowthrow-upsmash(depending on the floaty)

 

[Ringbearer]

To whomever might be interested, here's a desynch I'm trying to perfect in order to see if it's competitively viable:
I find it's easiest to start up after the shield/up-c-stick desynch. I do the short hop and a near-immediate dair with Popo while Nana is smashing. while Popo is still lagging, I do the shortest possible short hop and the quickest possible dair, and continue to do this, trading back and forth between Popo and Nana. The move has such small knockback, and if you keep them both as low to the ground/use the move as quickly as possible, it looks like it'd be difficult for most characters to escape. I find it's easier for me to keep the train of short hop-dairs going if I'm moving slightly to the right or left, so it should also be possible to use the technique to catch characters when they try to DI out.

But (for me, at least), the timing and pressure precision of it is hard to keep going after a few dairs or so, and I've only used it on a "walking" CPU in training mode.

Pros: racks up damage quickly. (potentially) keeps your opponent trapped in a rain of dairs. if you mess it up, usually the result is an unintended downsmash, which typically hit.
Cons: might prove competitively worthless if SDI can successfully get most characters out of it. it's hard to start up.

I think the L-cancelled nair desynch would ultimately be the best way to start this combo, but it's easier for me to just practice it with the shield to up c-stick desynch to try and determine whether it's potentially effective.

If anyone decides to waste a few hours experimenting with this, lemme know your results.


I also think that the OoS c-stick desynch is best in general for keeping a string of any short-hopped aerials going compared to the melee desynchs I'm used to, so if the rain of endless dairs is ineffective, a similar method might not be.

Just some thoughts. Good luck with practice, fellow ICs.

 

[Glass]

Good stuff; i'll have to try it out. Btw, if anyone finds out an infinite for IC, please wait to announce it after the Final release of PM

 

[Ringbearer]

Actually, starting it up after a desynched blizzard or ice block is pretty easy for practice, but I think it'd be hard to start it up that way in an actual match.

 

[Iceman]

This sounds like a neat trick. I'll have to try it in some matches to measure its viability. The PMBR said they wouldn't remove all PM original infinites.

 

[Iceman]

Ok so I have a question. In PM wobbling is no longer an infinite, but is it still a good way to build percent. How long can you wobble someone around 80 to 100%?