Ice Climber's grabs and desynces

[Sharkz]

Man, handoffs at the edge are really interesting in this game. It's strange how if both climbers are at the very edge of the stage they can still continue their handoffs. On Fox it works until exactly 143%, but the timing for Popo's regrab is a two-frame window (I believe it's frames 27 & 28 after nana starts her fthrow, though it may be 28 & 29). For other characters such as Bowser it goes well past 200% and has a larger frame window of execution. Of course, their would be no reason to go that high unless you're just trying to style on/annoy your opponent.

But the thing I don't understand about them is the hurtboxes on the characters that you throw. They seem so strange.

This is a successful grab at the very edge of the stage on Jigglypuff (no need to move Popo, I grabbed on frame 28 after nana's fthrow animation) and somehow this grab worked. The grab box doesn't seem to be anywhere close to Jiggs. Can someone explain this or would we just need to see the hurtboxes to understand?

 

[SPAZ494]

Who is the best character to practice chain grabs against when starting with the ice climbers?

 

[Hylian]

The characters you play against the most often in tournament.

 

[Phresh123]

Do you guys have a skype chat room to work together on these methods? Seriously, it will help alot for me. Lately i've been using spotdodge desync and it fits for me very well. Wavedashing, blizzard, iceblock off the desync helps and applies pressure. As far as cg's, downthow -> nana dair is the only one i can pulloff.

I've been studying this video for a while but somehow still cant get the f-throw in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g2pqpXzCqU

The illustrator stated this:

"Sure! Make sure tap jump is off first of all. You grab with popo, and input a downthrow, during the downthrow animation, hold up on the control stick, and contintue to hold it while you press z to regrab with nana. While still holding the stick up, tilt it forward to both trigger the fthrow from nana, as well as move popo forward to get his regrab. Repeat as necessary, and finish with a smash."

Nana keeps on up throwing, and i'm pretty sure you guys have either tested it or looking into it. Here's my skype: phresh123
I would love to connect with you all and learn more about IC's.

Best regards.

 

[Sharkz]

Do you guys have a skype chat room to work together on these methods? Seriously, it will help alot for me. Lately i've been using spotdodge desync and it fits for me very well. Wavedashing, blizzard, iceblock off the desync helps and applies pressure. As far as cg's, downthow -> nana dair is the only one i can pulloff.

I've been studying this video for a while but somehow still cant get the f-throw in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g2pqpXzCqU

The illustrator stated this:

"Sure! Make sure tap jump is off first of all. You grab with popo, and input a downthrow, during the downthrow animation, hold up on the control stick, and contintue to hold it while you press z to regrab with nana. While still holding the stick up, tilt it forward to both trigger the fthrow from nana, as well as move popo forward to get his regrab. Repeat as necessary, and finish with a smash."

Nana keeps on up throwing, and i'm pretty sure you guys have either tested it or looking into it. Here's my skype: phresh123
I would love to connect with you all and learn more about IC's.

Best regards.

I wouldn't worry too much about that infinite. The next patch (which could literally come any day now) will be taking it out, so there's no reason to practice something that will be taken away from you very soon. I'd just make sure you have your handoffs at the edge down, as well as knowing how to get your opponent to the edge if you grab them in the middle of the stage.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

This will probly be taking out during the bug patch but I found a desync involving moonwalking and the pivot bug.

step 1 do moonwalk command

step 2 hold stick at the end until turnaround

step 3 do move that's not side b ( imo ice block is the best to set it up) popo does the first move

This sill have nana about 3-4 character widths from you desynced and still able to be control her

 

[SPAZ494]

What are the best desynchs known right now and how do you do them? I appreciate any help I can get

 

[941]

What are the best desynchs known right now and how do you do them? I appreciate any help I can get

I would suggest reading the desync guide for Melee as most of the basic desyncs are similar between Melee and PM. Once you're good with those, try some grab desyncs like D-throw > D-air and basic D-throw handoffs.

Link to Desync Guide: http://smashboards.com/threads/guide-to-desynching-treat-your-opponents-even-more-coldly.53912/

 

[Sharkz]

What are the best desynchs known right now and how do you do them? I appreciate any help I can get

For new IC players I will always recommend checking out the Melee IC boards as the PM and Melee IC's are pretty similar and have a majority of the same desyncs.

I believe this video will be the most useful thing, though, if you're just looking for desyncs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh-OMW2kUDs

If I remember correctly, every desync covered in this vid except Up-B desync and (maybe) solo squall desync works in pm as well.

 

[Sharkz]

It's been a while since I read through this entire thread, so forgive me if this was mentioned earlier.

I was watching a couple of Hylian's vods the other day just trying to get some ideas for general neutral play and something I saw caught me off guard.

http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltOptimisticAfricanwildcat

Here he has Nana do a normal get up attack from ledge while Popo does a ledgedash. I didn't realize that you could desync the IC's from the ledge like that. From the little time I had to mess around with it, I was able to have them do two separate moves from the ledge like this a couple times, but nothing consistent. Does anyone else use this and in what situations is it handy?

 

[941]

It's been a while since I read through this entire thread, so forgive me if this was mentioned earlier.

I was watching a couple of Hylian's vods the other day just trying to get some ideas for general neutral play and something I saw caught me off guard.

http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltOptimisticAfricanwildcat

Here he has Nana do a normal get up attack from ledge while Popo does a ledgedash. I didn't realize that you could desync the IC's from the ledge like that. From the little time I had to mess around with it, I was able to have them do two separate moves from the ledge like this a couple times, but nothing consistent. Does anyone else use this and in what situations is it handy?

I'll test this for myself later, but my guess is that he's able to do a getup attack with Nana because she snaps to the ledge after using Up-B, meaning you can do different getups by inputting the first one before Popo grabs the ledge, then input a different getup when Popo actually grabs it.

 

[Phresh123]

It's been a while since I read through this entire thread, so forgive me if this was mentioned earlier.

I was watching a couple of Hylian's vods the other day just trying to get some ideas for general neutral play and something I saw caught me off guard.

http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltOptimisticAfricanwildcat

Here he has Nana do a normal get up attack from ledge while Popo does a ledgedash. I didn't realize that you could desync the IC's from the ledge like that. From the little time I had to mess around with it, I was able to have them do two separate moves from the ledge like this a couple times, but nothing consistent. Does anyone else use this and in what situations is it handy?

I can see it being used for several applications one could be lockup/pressure on the opponents end. How do you pull this off though?

I've been in the lab trying to figure out edgeguard options off the desync. If you guys have ANY let me know it'll help alot.


As for the best desync I would say spotdodge desync it comes out fast and Nana can apply moves quick out of it.

 

[Sharkz]

Messing around a little bit with the ledge grab desync in debug mode.

Excuse the poor quality, but this image Nana throwing out her get-up attack hitbox and a Popo ledgedash>grab at the same time. If someone could get consistent with this, it'd be amazing.

 

[Hylian]

I like to do the getup attack but ledgedash behind them with popo, turn around and then running JC grab towards the edge so I can get ledge hand-offs going .

 

[SPAZ494]

Can you meteor smash or spike with nana off a grab with popo at the edge?

 

[Hylian]

Yes. I usually just hand-off to nana and spike with popo though because it's more reliable.

 

[Sharkz]

That's funny, I use the opposite because I've seen a lot more success with it. It seems I can never get Popo yo get the meteor/spike.

 

[Hylian]

If you spike with nana the opponent is able to SDI the hit onto the stage and/or tech the ledge. With popo you can jump a bit further out and secure the kill.

 

[Phresh123]

Using Debug Mode, I was able to find the first frame for which you can input a grab with Nana to do a hand-off following a down-throw across the entire cast. The following is a list of the first frame after the DThrow -10(Grab start-up frames + Nana input delay) and it should give a better idea of hand-off timing for each character.

33:
31:
30:
29:
28:
26:
25:
24:
23:
22:
21:
20:
19:
18:
17:
16:
13:

Anyone who has better information is encouraged to make corrections.

This just helped me a ton with handoffs wow. I'm a lil more consitent then before with the help of some visuals while playing.

My old problem is sometimes Nana Up throws the opponent? I know this has been explained before but can someone repeat why this happens?

 

[941]

This just helped me a ton with handoffs wow. I'm a lil more consitent then before with the help of some visuals while playing.

My old problem is sometimes Nana Up throws the opponent? I know this has been explained before but can someone repeat why this happens?

Nana's throw is determined by her position in relation to the edge of the stage/platform. Nana will throw toward the edge if she is close enough, otherwise she will Up-throw. Nana's throw can be controlled by holding up on the control-stick as she grabs (with tap-jump off) but this is supposed to be removed.

 

[Tobb99]

I found out a cool and practical way of getting to the ledge:
1. run towards the edge
2. at the ledge do a taunt so that it edge-cancels
3. turn the other way

It is a very quick way of grabbing the ledge, often both climbers grab the ledge but sometimes, if you time it well, only one does it. Otherwise very easy to preform. Don't know if you already know this but posting it anyways.

 

[Hylian]

http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/637016228?t=1h18m38s

 

[SPAZ494]

How do you make the ice climbers squall hammer reach its maximum height when using it to recover? Whenever I use it and tap b repeatedly i barely get a lift.

 

[moonfolk]

How do you make the ice climbers squall hammer reach its maximum height when using it to recover? Whenever I use it and tap b repeatedly i barely get a lift.

Nana and Popo need to be together for it to go anywhere significantly. Also, you need to start pressing b immediately. It's not nearly as difficult as Luigi's, but if you wait too long after you initially input the squall hammer, it won't go very far.

 

[Tobb99]

How do you make the ice climbers squall hammer reach its maximum height when using it to recover? Whenever I use it and tap b repeatedly i barely get a lift.

I use my indexfinger to do reach maximum hight, it's really easy that way. I also use that method with similar moves like luigi/Mario tornado.

 

[SPAZ494]

In all the videos of ice climbers matches I've seen, no one smashes with nana while they have them grabbed with popo. They always dthrow then smash. Is there a reason for this? Is it more powerful or is there another reason?

 

[941]

I've compiled a list of characters that ICs can reliably D-throw chain-grab. I don't have a way to test exact damage percents, so all percents are rough estimates:
: 0%-~60%
:0%-~65%
:0%-~40%
:0%-~35%
:0%~60%
:0-~30%
:~20%-~120%
:~30%-~120%
:0%-~45%
:0%-~35%
:0%-~35%
:0%-~30%
:0%-~40%
:0%-~35%
:0%
:0%-~30%
0%-~25%
:0%
:0%-~20%
:0%
:0%-~20%
:0%-~15%
:0%-~30%
:0%~50%
:0%-~60%
:0%-~20%
:0%-~35%
:0%-~35%
:0%~45%
:0%~55%
:0%-~120%
:0%-~20%
:0%-~50%

Anyone who sees any mistakes, feel free to tell me.

@ SPAZ494 It's usually better to D-throw first because it deals more damage before the F-smash hits, as well as throwing the opponent slightly further away.

 

[moonfolk]

I've compiled a list of characters that ICs can reliably D-throw chain-grab.

Just to clarify, you mean just d-throw, right? As in SoPo could do it too? Or do you mean a CG with stuff added to it, like the d-throw > dair CG?

Also, why not put Jiggs, Kirby, Luigi, Mario, Mewtwo, Samus, and Zelda at 0% like Marth and Peach if they can't be CGed? Or is it that you don't have info on them? I'd put them in the list with a ?, just to be clear. Good info though for sure! I'm not trying to be nitpicky, just thorough.

 

[941]

Just to clarify, you mean just d-throw, right? As in SoPo could do it too? Or do you mean a CG with stuff added to it, like the d-throw > dair CG?

Also, why not put Jiggs, Kirby, Luigi, Mario, Mewtwo, Samus, and Zelda at 0% like Marth and Peach if they can't be CGed? Or is it that you don't have info on them? I'd put them in the list with a ?, just to be clear. Good info though for sure! I'm not trying to be nitpicky, just thorough.

So to clarify: Yes I do mean CGing with D-throws. The reason I have Peach and Marth at 0% is because they can be CGed with a D-throw but it only works once at very low %. Characters that were not included in the list are characters that cannot be CGed with just D-throw, unless your opponent does nothing after the D-throw.

 

[SPAZ494]

Who is a good secondary for ice climbers? I focus most of my time on icies but I want another character to work on. My favorite options are roy, Lucas, and sheik. Which of these do you guys think would be best?

 

[Foxy K]

Who is a good secondary for ice climbers? I focus most of my time on icies but I want another character to work on. My favorite options are roy, Lucas, and sheik. Which of these do you guys think would be best?

I asked this question in both the MU discussion and a thread of my own which is near the top of the page. Hylian's advice was go with a sword character or Sheik, so I'm going with Roy.

 

[941]

Why do D-throw+D-air grabs seem so much better in PM than in Melee? I know it can be DIed/SDIed but it seems to work decently on like 80% of the cast in PM, but in Melee it only seems to work on about 5-6 characters.

Also, is it possible to ledge-cancel Up-B? I don't think it works while synced, but I can't seem to do it with just Popo either.

 

[Dante Shepard]

Ayy just got some new meta for you guys double wobbled my friends in team friendlies(Double wobbling is when you grab a character with popo and another character with nana then do the wobbling speed at twice the speed of a regular wobble.) I achieved this on dreamland when my friend who playing captain falcon got grabbed by me and then is partner who playing marth came in and then got grabbed by nana. I then preceded to jab both of them at twice the wobbling pace. Then my partner who was playing marth preceded to tipper our opponents out of the grab.

 

[Hylian]

That..doesn't matter >_>. Attacks don't add hitstun when in a grab state in PM, it's impossible to do any sort of wobble.

 

[941]

Free the Ice Climbers!

 

[Dante Shepard]

That..doesn't matter >_>. Attacks don't add hitstun when in a grab state in PM, it's impossible to do any sort of wobble.

this wasnt in pm was in melee

 

[Hylian]

this wasnt in pm was in melee

...Then how is it relevant to this thread? lol "I've got some new meta for you guys" makes us think you did this in pm

 

[Foxy K]

Despite this being the wrong thread for that, I still don't understand how you "jabbed them at twice the speed of wobbling" if both of your climbers were holding someone? So you just pummeled them?

...What?