Lets start this over from the beginning, so I can show you where you lack evidence and logic.
TP lacks difficulty and originality. It is pretty much OoT 2.0 for Casual Gamers.
Completely opinionated. No supporting evidence, no logic.
The Twili aren't really that important, OoT invented the common form of Zora, the Kokiri, the Sheikah and the Gerudo (excluding Ganondorf).
Same.
There are more important things than story. Such as gameplay. Which OoT has better of than TP because of how linear, boring and redundant TP is.
Same.
The Wolf bits were boring fetch quests, it was a poor attempt at making an interesting mechanic.
Same, and add inaccurate.
OoT is generally regarded as the better game for a reason, that should be enough to convince you.
Now, to rebut the actual post.
Good, were on the same page. OoT is better than TP, you agree, I agree, why are we arguing? And I am giving reasons for my arguments... that you are choosing to ignore. Also, this sentence is kinda flawed, you said that OoT is better than TP, but you also said that TP is an improvement of the Zelda series, how does that work?
OoT is a better game than TP because it had the "revolutionary effect." First 3D zelda, standard for future Zelda gameplay mechanics, revamp of several major characters, etc. The effects it had on the series itself are more lasting than TP's, however, TP has all the good of OoT with advancement in story, graphics, and gameplay. OoT is a better game because of how it impacted the series, however TP is a better Zelda because it takes Zelda to a higher level.
Majority proves that most people agree with me. That in itself is evidence, tell me which is more likely:
a) People genuinely like OoT more than TP for their own various reasons.
b) They are all deluded, TP is actually much better than OoT.
I've got several responses to this.
1.There's a difference between people liking OoT more for personal reasons, and flat out saying OoT is better. Several times you make attacks at TP which do not reflect an opinionated statement.
2.And the fact of the matter is, you still have yet to list one reason why OoT would be better.
3. People may have their own reasons, but that doesn't make them legitimate. See
this post.
While that is technically a reason, we all know that that isn't a good reason. However, he is free to think whatever he wants. So under selection "a", it's perfectly fine for me to like OoT because I like the shape of G-Dorf's nose.
The aim of this debate isn't whether or not people like OoT over TP for any reason, but that they do for LEGITIMATE reasons.
4.I doubt that you actually have a majority on your side. You assume that most people agree with you, but you have no proof. I could go to gfaqs right now and find a trove of people who will argue TP > OoT, and I'm sure you can find people for the opposite end. You cannot prove that you have a majority, not can you prove the legitimacy of your majority, I.E. whether or not your majority considers its beliefs rationally.
I suggest you drop this.
It is biased because you aren't giving the full plot. If you read the argument I gave, you can see that you summarized the OoT characters and put extensive detail in your descriptions of the TP characters, while the opposite can be done quite easily as well.
I'll give you this one.
Depends what you describe as more extensive. TP is more cliched, this is obvious to anyone.
Completely opinionated, no supporting evidence, no logic. By extensive, I mean in-depth, having multiple avenues of interest. I mean, OoT didn't have nearly as many conflicts as TP. What from OoT can you compare the depth of TP's main plot, Midna's story, Zant's story, Collin's story, Illia's story?
Ball & Chain = Smash stuff.
Megaton Hammer = Smash stuff.
The only difference is the Megaton Hammer can be used to press buttons.
Wow, such terrible logic. Generalizing what the two items do doesn't show that they're essentially the same. By that same logic all the items are the same;
Clawshot = Press button to do something
Bow = Press button to do something
Ocarina = Press button to do something
Boomerang = Press button to do something
Din's Fire = Press button to do something
Bottle = Press button to do something
Sword = Press button to do something
Mask = Press button to do something
Deku Nut = Press button to do something
The two items are different because of the SPECIFIC things they do. The ball and chain could attack at range, defeat those giant ice wall monsters, be swung above the head for continuous damage, etc. The megaton hammer is only close range and can press buttons. They're very different.
I can't deny this. But this also means you can't use it as a reason for TP>OoT, as they both have the same shortcomings.
I never did.
I know they didn't have names, I just meant like, which number heart piece, of the general area where the sidequest takes place.
There's a mountainside cliff where spinner tracks are located, around north hyrule, IIRC, completing the trial gets you a heart piece. There's another around by the area where you find impas, that you use the spinner to access an underground minidungeon. There's a minidungeon, i can't say for sure where it is, where you use the ball and chain to kill a couple of those giant ice things. I can't remember them all, of course.
I don't think you read my post correctly. "It is simply a device used to move the plot along". There is a word for this but I can't remember it at the moment. This means that you can replace the Twili with anything and still have a working plot. Hence, a device used to move the plot along. That's all the Twili are. It is debatable, as I just debated it. And I did give a logical reason, which you, again, chose to ignore.
So what? Whatever Nintendo chose to "move the plot along" would inevitably be important. They could've easily not used the gorons, zoras, or shiekah in the story. They aren't essential. The only essential is Link, everything else can be replaced.
I ignored your point because you failed to show what your point was. Most of your post was an attack on me, and the rest was a falsely stigmatized attack on the Twili, which you never gave me a reason to believe.
I'm trying to show that the Twili aren't that amazing, and that OoT has characters essential to the plot as well. To quote what you said with a minor alteration: Take the gerudo out and you have no plot. No plot, Link never has any reason to leave the Kokiri. The plot and the Gerudo are both very important seeing as how they affect gameplay, enemies and bosses you fight, and areas you go to.
The Twili are the only race for which a story has been fleshed out. The gerudo, kokiri, goron, zora, and shiekah have no origin stories. The Twili do, and that makes the overall story better because the player has a better understanding of the events that take place in the game. They are a plot device, sure, but Zelda must have a plot, it just so happens that the Twili are a milestone in Zelda history because their story is way more extensive than that of other races, and this effectively affects the player's comprehension of the game's plot. The reason why we have all these theories about things such as timelines and origins is because of the lack of a story in that area. However, the Twili race is the first race that gives the player knowledge of hyrulian history, and that is certainly important to the series.
Come now, you must realize that you are clutching at thin straws. Do I even need to explain why this is wrong? There is a balance to difficulty, so if I make an impossible game it will most likely be bad, but if I make a game that can be finished in 2 seconds it will most likely be bad. And difficulty isn't the only factor. I can't believe you accuse me of being a bad debater when you bring up nonsense like this.
Your logic was that Difficulty = good game. So I just went by your logic. So the nonsense I brought up was because of the nonsense you brought up.
It is common knowledge. It isn't true just because I said it.
Completely opinionated. No evidence, no logic.
I seem to remember you bringing up earlier that TP having a better story than OoT is indisputable without providing any reasoning. *cough* Hypocritical *cough*
You won't believe this. But I did that intentionally to see if you could comprehend the logical errors which I accuse you of. since you've shown that you can, I'll assume that you won't do it anymore.
Once again, I'm not lazy. I bring up points that you happily ignore. I have shown that you have been hypocritic and biased as well. And I don't seem to recall ever insulting you or claiming I am right without providing reasoning. Hell, even with reasoning I never said "I'm right, you're wrong" or a variation there of. In fact, you just insulted me by calling me lazy, let me add that to the list of things you've done in this debate. You've ignored my arguments, been hypocritic, biased and insulting. All this while you're accusing me of being lazy? Wow.
I have a response to this, but it's be essentially making the same unproven claims that you are doing here. This is not relevant to the debate. So I'll sum up. I answered all the arguments except the ones with no evidence, which is most of them. The hypocritical thing was a ploy, as I've already said. You've been biased too. And yes, I did insult you.
Here you go insulting me again. My claims have had base, which you have ignored. I give evidence and logic, you give little evidence and flawed logic. Catch my drift?
No you don't. Yes I do.
This would take a while to explain, and I guess linear wasn't really the right word. I was trying to bring up that TP had numerous, boring, compulsory bits, a repetitive formula and was unoriginal in taking large amounts of plot and formula from OoT and aLttP.
Completely opinionated. No supporting evidence, no logic.
If you don't know my point, that shows me that you originally countered this argument just for the sake of being contrary, and not for understanding what I'm trying to say. Now that I recall, the wolf link argument wasn't even between you and I, it was LT and I. You just jumped in with random rebuttals because you just have to disagree.
Anyway, my point is that individually the wolf link parts don't constitute meaningful addition fo the gameplay. However, when you consider all the times you need to be a wolf collectively, you see that the inclusion of wolf link drastically affected the gameplay.
Also, the lense of truth was a minor item that was barely used. Wolf link's enses are used much, much more.
I gave reasoning and evidence... Which you chose to ignore...
I gave reasoning and evidence... Which you chose to ignore...
I. Gave. Reasoning. And. Evidence. Which. You. Chose. To. Ignore.
No you didn't.
How about we drop this whole "I ignored your points" crap. I could go back and break down each of the times where you have little evidence for your points, but that would take too long and would yield nothing beneficial to the debate.
