I think I enjoyed the speculation phase more than I do the game itself; I must be getting old...

Quillion

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#1
And I'm in no way saying that Ultimate is a bad game, nor am I saying that I don't like the game. I think it's a masterpiece, and I love playing it with other people. I love the character variety, I love Spirits mode being a perfect evolution of Event Matches, and I love how Classic Mode is tailored to every character.

But somehow, I don't feel as obsessed with playing it top-to-bottom it as I had with Melee, Brawl, or even Smash 4. What I was obsessed over, though, was the speculation. Everyone was imagining left and right how new characters would be implemented into Smash and how old characters would evolve with the series alike. People were imagining what stages would be in Smash and how they would work. People were imagining what kind of new games would be represented in Smash, whether it be new IPs on the block like Splatoon and ARMS or rising stars like Xenoblade. People were imagining what kind of new modes the next game could bring to the table and how existing modes can be improved.

When I really think about it, I think I enjoyed the speculation phase more than I did the actual game. Maybe it's because our imaginations don't have the limitations that Sora has in developing these games. Maybe I'm probably just an old fart who's been out of high school longer than I've been in high school.
 

Teeb147

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#2
As much as the speculation can be fun, I think it's because of the anticipation. Dreaming up stuff based on something coming can be fun.
It can also be aggravating. In quite a few ways. And I've seen plenty of people who just want things to end, including the wait. I think it probably depends on quite a few things. Everyone probably feels differently about it.

It's possible you like to talk more than you do playing now :p
 
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Xelrog

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#3
I don't feel that way at all, personally. But then, I'm extremely down-to-earth with my expectations for the game. I was hype for Sonic after his reveal in Brawl was dropped, and for Mega and Pac and other third parties as they were revealed for Smash 4. After Smash 4... well, anything felt possible, so nothing ever surprised me. Save Plant, who was only really included to surprise people like me.

I'll just go with the flow and be happy for whoever gets in. Getting heated about it before that point just feels silly to me, but if it makes other people happy, then I wish them the best with their speculating.
 

UserKev

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#4
Its only when anticipating my most wanted characters, it can be potentially more enjoyable than the game its self. Also, speculation is like, your top wanted are already in the game, your stuck in that moment and its all of a sudden, you can't unlock them again.

The speculation scene has something individually unique to it.
 

MG_3989

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#5
I'm on the complete other side of the spectrum. Don't get me wrong I'm super happy with the roster and the fact that they brought everyone back and pulled it off but I care more about the gameplay and competive experience in Smash and Ultimate delivered beyond my expectations on that front

Character speculation is fun and all but Smash could cut the roster in half and as long as the game kept it's spirit and it's a fun, competitive, balanced, and amazing experience then I'm cool with it. I don't really care about DLC or any character speculation or single player mode at all. Just deliver on the multiplayer experience, the engine, the physics, the aesthetics, the music, and the atmosphere of the game and I'm happy. I honestly don't even follow or anticipate games that much including until they're about a week away or so to see if I want to buy it. I think overanylzing and anticipating a game before it comes out can take some of the magic away when the game comes out. At least for me
 

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#6
In Smash 4, I was really caught up in speculation. I was constantly following rumors, arguing about who would return and who wouldn't, who might get in, ect. I think I hyped myself up for it to a point that it became impossible for the game to actually reach my insane expectations, so when the game finally released instead of enjoying it for what it was I kind of went "that's it"?

With Ultimate I took a much more relaxed approach to the speculation era. I don't worry too much about who the roster would include. I still did hype over it but not to the point where I expected it to be some flawless masterpiece. I think I can enjoy the game more for what it is because of it.
 
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#7
Well for me, speculation was a drought phase and I grow tired of countless fan theories and fake leaks before release which is why I have little to no interest in speculation for the dlc characters cause I don't mind who gets in at this point.
 

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#8
King K. Rool fans were hoping for a highly viable heavyweight fighter, based on what they've seen during the speculation period. Unfortunately, all they got was disappointment, as he's nothing more than a joke.

Sometimes it just makes you think that the developers intentionally made certain fighters to be plain awful. And the irony is, while people don't find it fun to be using a fighter that's too good, at the same time, there's no fun in using a fighter who just can't win at anything.
 
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Quillion

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#9
I personally wouldn't say my expectations were that big. I made sure to temper them since the end of Brawl's speculation phase. I didn't expect more than one third-party character per franchise, and after Richter was announced, I didn't and still don't expect any big steps beyond having just one main character and one echo per third-party franchise. I also never really followed any big leaks. However, I did enjoy seeing people speculate on new characters' movesets though I never really expect them to be implemented.

I suppose my biggest expectations lied in two places: where they would change characters, and with the newer franchises. Yes, I know it was a bad idea, but it was pretty exciting to think how Mario, Link, and Samus, would evolve with their games in Smash.

You know what, the first point is probably why I enjoyed the speculation phase more than I do the actual game. My feelings are more conflicted than set in stone, but the old characters do feel like they're stale and being left behind by the newer characters' more thought-out designs.
 

UserKev

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#10
I'm on the complete other side of the spectrum. Don't get me wrong I'm super happy with the roster and the fact that they brought everyone back and pulled it off but I care more about the gameplay and competive experience in Smash and Ultimate delivered beyond my expectations on that front

Character speculation is fun and all but Smash could cut the roster in half and as long as the game kept it's spirit and it's a fun, competitive, balanced, and amazing experience then I'm cool with it. I don't really care about DLC or any character speculation or single player mode at all. Just deliver on the multiplayer experience, the engine, the physics, the aesthetics, the music, and the atmosphere of the game and I'm happy. I honestly don't even follow or anticipate games that much including until they're about a week away or so to see if I want to buy it. I think overanylzing and anticipating a game before it comes out can take some of the magic away when the game comes out. At least for me
I mean, if you heavily dedicate to speculation, yeah. Haha I would balance it at the most. I only wanted literally one new character this speculation scene.
 

lucasla

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#12
Well, I wouldn't say that I liked the speculation more than the game, specially because at some point I realised what we would really be getting, but I really don't think the game we have is the definitive Smash I wanted. And with the Ultimate name on it it really disappoints me in some areas.

It is for me the best Smash game I played, but I think that the development team of the game has provided a product that had not crossed the line that divides what the game has as improvement from past games and what the game should provide in comparison to other experiences out there at the time we are now.

We have some really good things:

1. Great core gameplay
2. Quality of life changes
3. All characters back and new ones with at least 5 more to come
4. Almost all stages back (and in 3 formats)
5. Improved single player content (world of light, classic mode)

But we still dont have yet:

6. A good online experience (and that includes matchmaking, stability, and a proper rank system)
7. A good singleplayer campaign (world of light and classic modes are series of events)

And while 1 to 5 really makes the game great, 6 and 7 have a considerable weight on the game that I can't ignore.

And the fact that I feel they care too much about local gameplay in comparison to the online experience really hurts the game to me. Because while appears they wanna force/incentivate people to play locally with friends, they are actually ignoring the fact that local gameplay already works, and people will, in majority, play the game online more than locally in todays era (or would if it was actually better).

For me the game really shines playing locally with friends, but that happens only a few times in comparison with all the time I'm in home with no one with me, and I want to play and enjoy the game and the online is terrible and I cant really enjoy the game. And then, I think about playing some singleplayer content and the game doesnt have a campaign, only events, and I will not just play random CPU matches cause for me it's boring. And then I keep waiting for the next game I will reunite my friends, that will be great, but until there, I would like to enjoy my game more than I actually enjoy. I can play online in 1v1 matches, but other than that the game is super laggy in any match I try to play with 4 players, and even in 1v1 the game sometimes have lag too and I feel so frustrated that it makes me want to stop playing just after a few matches.

With these two huge things that I can't ignore, I really don't think it's hard to imagine how a sequel could top this game, just like this game made WiiU's Smash irrelevant. If a sequel arrives just by adding a campaign and better online system, then Ultimate becomes irrelevant, just like the WiiU game is today.

* And seriously, the game was released on the second year of the console, and presuming we are not going to have a new Smash on the same system, and the Switch will least probably at least 5 more years, can't they create a big expansion that adds a campaign to their game? (like Splatoon had with the Octo Expansion) Cause only characters I dont really care.. for me characters adds to the core gameplay, that is already great to me. But I want to have something more to do with them. Do we need to wait 5 to 10 years to have a new Smash with a campaign and better online system?
 
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Quillion

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#13
Well, I wouldn't say that I liked the speculation more than the game, specially because at some point I realised what we would really be getting, but I really don't think the game we have is the definitive Smash I wanted. And with the Ultimate name on it it really disappoints me in some areas.

It is for me the best Smash game I played, but I think that the development team of the game has provided a product that had not crossed the line that divides what the game has as improvement from past games and what the game should provide in comparison to other experiences out there at the time we are now.

We have some really good things:

1. Great core gameplay
2. Quality of life changes
3. All characters back and new ones with at least 5 more to come
4. Almost all stages back (and in 3 formats)
5. Improved single player content (world of light, classic mode)

But we still dont have yet:

6. A good online experience (and that includes matchmaking, stability, and a proper rank system)
7. A good singleplayer campaign (world of light and classic modes are series of events)

And while 1 to 5 really makes the game great, 6 and 7 have a considerable weight on the game that I can't ignore.

And the fact that I feel they care too much about local gameplay in comparison to the online experience really hurts the game to me. Because while appears they wanna force/incentivate people to play locally with friends, they are actually ignoring the fact that local gameplay already works, and people will, in majority, play the game online more than locally in todays era (or would if it was actually better).

For me the game really shines playing locally with friends, but that happens only a few times in comparison with all the time I'm in home with no one with me, and I want to play and enjoy the game and the online is terrible and I cant really enjoy the game. And then, I think about playing some singleplayer content and the game doesnt have a campaign, only events, and I will not just play random CPU matches cause for me it's boring. And then I keep waiting for the next game I will reunite my friends, that will be great, but until there, I would like to enjoy my game more than I actually enjoy. I can play online in 1v1 matches, but other than that the game is super laggy in any match I try to play with 4 players, and even in 1v1 the game sometimes have lag too and I feel so frustrated that it makes me want to stop playing just after a few matches.

With these two huge things that I can't ignore, I really don't think it's hard to imagine how a sequel could top this game, just like this game made WiiU's Smash irrelevant. If a sequel arrives just by adding a campaign and better online system, then Ultimate becomes irrelevant, just like the WiiU game is today.

* And seriously, the game was released on the second year of the console, and presuming we are not going to have a new Smash on the same system, and the Switch will least probably at least 5 more years, can't they create a big expansion that adds a campaign to their game? (like Splatoon had with the Octo Expansion) Cause only characters I dont really care.. for me characters adds to the core gameplay, that is already great to me. But I want to have something more to do with them. Do we need to wait 5 to 10 years to have a new Smash with a campaign and better online system?
Yeah, I gotta agree that they focused too much on the characters and too little on everything else. I'm definitely miffed about how they downgraded the minigame modes to near-nothing in lieu of pushing the spirits more and more.

I also stand by my opinion that we should have had a Global Test Smash to test the online system before release. I don't get why they never did that.

And seriously, how hard is it to realize that we all just want Subspace Emissary with actual Nintendo worlds? It's not rocket science, Sakurai.
 
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#14
Yeah, I gotta agree that they focused too much on the characters and too little on everything else. I'm definitely miffed about how they downgraded the minigame modes to near-nothing in lieu of pushing the spirits more and more.

I also stand by my opinion that we should have had a Global Test Smash to test the online system before release. I don't get why they never did that.

And seriously, how hard is it to realize that we all just want Subspace Emissary with actual Nintendo worlds? It's not rocket science, Sakurai.
It would be pretty difficult to have a huge story mode like Subspace with this huge roster.

Honestly I love World of Light (just beaten it the 5th time yesterday) I find the themed spirit matches pretty fun though I would have liked more platforming segments and co-op.
 

Xelrog

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#15
And seriously, how hard is it to realize that we all just want Subspace Emissary with actual Nintendo worlds? It's not rocket science, Sakurai.
"We all"

Subspace was such a huge undertaking that it had to be mitigated out to another company, and was practically a separate game. Not only that, but it played like garbage. If they're not going to have a story mode that actually plays well they might as just make crossover animations and upload them to YouTube. That's all anyone liked about Subspace, anyway. The cutscenes.
 

Quillion

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#16
"We all"

Subspace was such a huge undertaking that it had to be mitigated out to another company, and was practically a separate game. Not only that, but it played like garbage. If they're not going to have a story mode that actually plays well they might as just make crossover animations and upload them to YouTube. That's all anyone liked about Subspace, anyway. The cutscenes.
Played like garbage? Sure, it was essentially Kirby Super Star with a bland aesthetic and token Mario enemies, but that was just fine if not the best.

I at least liked the potential that Subspace had, but it was wasted by having that dumb "World of Trophies" instead of actual Nintendo levels.
 

Jaro235

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#17
At first, I did go crazy over speculation because the idea of really cool new characters coming out was crazy to me. I was so excited when I heard that Bayonetta, Ryu, and Pac-Man came to Smash Bros. I always thought about some characters I want to see get into Smash such as Shantae, Waluigi, and Shovel Knight. During Smash 4, I was hoping one of these characters would get in. Now though, I am not into speculation as much as I used to be. I just want to see a really cool and original character get into Smash, but I don’t really care who gets in anymore because if Joker from Persona can get in Smash, anyone can get in and it sounds exciting, but I just feel that there are too many options out there and there is nobody that I can think of that I REALLY want to see as a DLC character as of now. I prefer playing the game and taking on what ever characters come to Smash with my mains.
 
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lucasla

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#18
"We all"

Subspace was such a huge undertaking that it had to be mitigated out to another company, and was practically a separate game. Not only that, but it played like garbage. If they're not going to have a story mode that actually plays well they might as just make crossover animations and upload them to YouTube. That's all anyone liked about Subspace, anyway. The cutscenes.
One bad implementation of a good idea doesn't make the idea bad. They just need to do it right.
 
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#19
One bad implementation of a good idea doesn't make the idea bad. They just need to do it right.
Explain how to make an interesting plaforming level accounting for Ganondorf-tier mobility and then we'll talk.

The last time we got levels specifically catering to an individual character's abilities, it was called Break The Targets.
 
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#21
The answer is deceptively simple: don't have Ganondorf-tier mobility on any character in the first place.
I don't really get what you're trying to go for here... you're saying Ganon shouldn't be playable in campaign at all? Or that Smash should be balanced for platforming instead of fighting? Or that Ganon wouldn't be totally busted if he had great mobility with his current moveset?

We've got 70+ characters so it's only natural some have to go to extremes to stand out.
 
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#22
I don't really get what you're trying to go for here... you're saying Ganon shouldn't be playable in campaign at all? Or that Smash should be balanced for platforming instead of fighting? Or that Ganon wouldn't be totally busted if he had great mobility with his current moveset?

We've got 70+ characters so it's only natural some have to go to extremes to stand out.
The point was that if there was a plan to have Subspace again, no character should be terrible at platforming. In addition, a good platforming campaign would find a good balance to allow the slower characters to be useful somehow.

That comment was strictly in the context of having a Subspace style mode.
 
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#23
I think I might also have a little bit.

Speculation kept me entertained for almost a full year. Whereas I'd pretty much wrung out all the content I was going to get from the game after a month or so, because I don't get to play with other people very often.
And seriously, how hard is it to realize that we all just want Subspace Emissary with actual Nintendo worlds? It's not rocket science, Sakurai.
I enjoyed World of Light more than Subspace Emissary.

Sakurai's "writing" in Smash Bros. is weirdly melodramatic in the same stupid way Kingdom Hearts is. That CGI budget is was much better spent on the quirky, funny character reveal trailers.

And most of the "unique" gameplay elements of SSE are straight up bad.
 
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#24
Only part of SSE I liked was the cutscene and the great maze.
 

soviet prince

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#25
if you want an story based game with nintendo characters that game is not smash but another game entirely
 

lucasla

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#26
Explain how to make an interesting plaforming level accounting for Ganondorf-tier mobility and then we'll talk.

The last time we got levels specifically catering to an individual character's abilities, it was called Break The Targets.
I don't know why is so hard for anyone to imagine a good campaign. World of light already did it on the last level. It just should be extended and variated for the extension of the entire campaign.

They obviously can create levels for specific characters that will be adjusted for the mobility of the character. Maybe a Ganondorth level can focus in something other than plataforming, what's the problem? They can even create levels that work like break the targets.

and again they already did it partially in WoL.
 
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HotelSoapy

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#27
When I was younger Melee captured my imagination I thought it was the greatest thing ever. I actually bought it online now that I'm older hadn't played it in a decade. I received it a couple days before Ultimate. I was disappointed.

Quillion Quillion I'm like you I guess I only visit these forums to check out the support thread for Banjo Kazooie. And I do think about how cool the anticipation is going to be for Smash 6 when it gets announced down the line.
 

Xelrog

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#28
I don't know why is so hard for anyone to imagine a good campaign. World of light already did it on the last level.
You mean the tedious, repetitive scrolling map that had to sprinkle jetpacks everywhere to account for the presence of terrible mobility characters?
 

Sean²

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#29
And I'm in no way saying that Ultimate is a bad game, nor am I saying that I don't like the game. I think it's a masterpiece, and I love playing it with other people. I love the character variety, I love Spirits mode being a perfect evolution of Event Matches, and I love how Classic Mode is tailored to every character.

But somehow, I don't feel as obsessed with playing it top-to-bottom it as I had with Melee, Brawl, or even Smash 4. What I was obsessed over, though, was the speculation. Everyone was imagining left and right how new characters would be implemented into Smash and how old characters would evolve with the series alike. People were imagining what stages would be in Smash and how they would work. People were imagining what kind of new games would be represented in Smash, whether it be new IPs on the block like Splatoon and ARMS or rising stars like Xenoblade. People were imagining what kind of new modes the next game could bring to the table and how existing modes can be improved.

When I really think about it, I think I enjoyed the speculation phase more than I did the actual game. Maybe it's because our imaginations don't have the limitations that Sora has in developing these games. Maybe I'm probably just an old fart who's been out of high school longer than I've been in high school.
Welcome to adulthood, where nostalgia dies and everything is just "okay".
 

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#30
I didn't enjoy this games speculation cycle one bit. Grinch thing aside, there was some speculation for characters who were REALLY out there.

Remember when there was discourse on Katalina from Granblue Fantasy and Vault Boy? That died real fast.
 

lucasla

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#31
You mean the tedious, repetitive scrolling map that had to sprinkle jetpacks everywhere to account for the presence of terrible mobility characters?
The campaign doesnt need to be in auto scrolling in all levels.
The campaign doesnt need to be entirely based on plataforming.
They can have levels specific to play with some particular character.
They can have levels to be played with a selection of characters.
They can have levels to be played with any character.
There's no problem in use items or even new gadgets to adjust some levels to any character.
What you call repetitive is the best level of WoL, or any other event that lasts less than 30 seconds is better than this level? And also, the jetpacks are entirely optional and there's nothing negative at all about them. If you think this is repetitive, dont you have any problem with WoL being entirely repetitive by itself?
 
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#33
You're not alone, I definitely preferred the speculation period to the actual reality for Ultimate.

Not sure whether it's because we all dream up an ideal version of Smash in our heads prior to playing the actual one, but somehow Ultimate has failed to capture my interest unlike Sm4sh, and I cannot work out exactly why that is. On paper Ultimate should be a superior game, but I just don't seem to care anymore.

Maybe it's just due to a smaller selection of newcomers? Or a lack of new modes? I'm not sure. Maybe it's just all the characters that would get me super hyped got deconfirmed and thus I have nothing to look forward to in the DLC? Could be as simple and self centered as that.

But there's nothing for me to really talk about on the boards these days as a result of that and all the people I enjoyed talking and speculating to about my favourites have left the boards until next Smash speculation period.

Ultimate's not a bad game at all, I really enjoyed World of Light for example(just no replayability), it just lacks the magic and specialness I felt in 64-Sm4sh for me personally.
 

lucasla

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#34
When did I ever say any other part of WoL was good?
So you dont like WoL, you dont like Subspace, you dont believe in a good campaign because SS was bad. Why are we debating? Just keep playing solo against the AI or on multiplayer on the regular mode forever then.
 
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soviet prince

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#35
I believe people are wanting a total different game, smash is a mult based experience to have a good single player like ppl are asking for would take away from what the game is all about. Honestly rather have 2 more characters then a story mode I play once and never touch again.
 
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#36
I believe people are wanting a total different game, smash is a mult based experience to have a good single player like ppl are asking for would take away from what the game is all about. Honestly rather have 2 more characters then a story mode I play once and never touch again.
It's not just Smash, this is true for pretty much every fighting game. All the pretty cutscenes and story in the world won't change the fact you're just engaging in CPU battles over and over again when you're actually playing like a glorified arcade mode, when they're not just turning the game into a beat-em-up.
 

Predatoria

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#37
I believe people are wanting a total different game, smash is a mult based experience to have a good single player like ppl are asking for would take away from what the game is all about. Honestly rather have 2 more characters then a story mode I play once and never touch again.
Agreed. Be very wary of what you ask for.

A studio only has so many resources to allocate towards a project. They have a budget. They have a team of artists, engineers, sound designers, coders, and others that all built this game. Their time is valuable and there are priorities they need to focus on.

When people ask for things to be added to a game they enjoy, they forget to consider one thing. This must come at the expense of something else because all of this costs time, money, and talent.



I ask, would you rather Smash Ultimate to have focused more on a single-player campaign at the expense of fine-tuning character mechanics, stage mechanics, balance, and the general multiplayer experience?

I say absolutely not.
 
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Xelrog

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#38
Really, I just don't want the game to try to be a beat-em-up. Fighting the same mooks over and over again is just insufferable to me, and it's not the game I want when I buy Smash Bros. Subspace was incredibly obnoxious trying to navigate when you're just pelted with stupid annoying enemies at every turn. They're not fun to fight. They're fodder. Tedium.

Even if I say it's conceivable that there could be a platforming singleplayer campaign, given that each level was tailored to a specific character (or pool of characters with very similar mobility)... what's the challenge, then? If there are enemies, how do you make them more interesting than beat-em-up fodder? Spend the budget to design fifty thousand unique enemies with unique abilities and behavior? If there are no enemies and you're just navigating obstacles like spikes and pits, why am I playing that in Smash Bros. and not just playing a game that was designed to be a pure platformer?

I just don't see any end that results in a fun, in-depth singleplayer experience, much less one that does so on a reasonable budget.
 

lucasla

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2018
Messages
385
#39
It's not just Smash, this is true for pretty much every fighting game. All the pretty cutscenes and story in the world won't change the fact you're just engaging in CPU battles over and over again when you're actually playing like a glorified arcade mode, when they're not just turning the game into a beat-em-up.
I really dont care about the cutscenes. People use it because they were the most polished thing is SS, but they are not that important to me. For me the cutscenes could even be created with the ingame models, I don't care. They need to improve the gameplay, the levels. They have great specific segments in these games with lapses of what could be the way to create a good campaign, but you are all using failed attempts as excuses to say that it's not possible, or only the CGs are great, when they actually never tried again after Subspace.
 
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