I think I enjoyed the speculation phase more than I do the game itself; I must be getting old...

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,158
Location
Niigata, Japan
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
NNID
BahamurShin
#42
And seriously, how hard is it to realize that we all just want Subspace Emissary with actual Nintendo worlds? It's not rocket science, Sakurai.
It's not rocket science... it's a logistical nightmare. Everything can look easy for an outside party.

What people liked about SSE was not the side scrolling platforming. It was the story cutscenes featuring interactions with the characters, and that takes a lot of work.
It's better that they trimmed the fat by removing the unnecessary platforming segments and have a single player that is more focused on the actual fighting.
 

UserKev

Smash Ace
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
953
#43
I still agree with that, I really miss Mimikyu speculation, Lyn and Skull Kid. These characters had a really great following for me. The Ashley support, and Dixie Kong support activeness. Something about it, the magic is only so dominant. I wish I handled the Decidueye speculation better, to.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
6,292
Location
Miami, NYC
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
NNID
NapoleonPlays
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
#44
King K. Rool fans were hoping for a highly viable heavyweight fighter, based on what they've seen during the speculation period. Unfortunately, all they got was disappointment, as he's nothing more than a joke.

Sometimes it just makes you think that the developers intentionally made certain fighters to be plain awful. And the irony is, while people don't find it fun to be using a fighter that's too good, at the same time, there's no fun in using a fighter who just can't win at anything.
...are you trolling?
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
6,292
Location
Miami, NYC
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
NNID
NapoleonPlays
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
#46
Are you referring to the "intentionally bad" statement or the "K. Rool is bad" statement? Because the latter is pretty widely accepted at the moment.
The overall premise that K Rool fans are ungrateful that K Rool got in at all.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,969
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
#47
The overall premise that K Rool fans are ungrateful that K Rool got in at all.
The problem is that while people finally got King K. Rool, finding out that he's flat out bad is like a huge insult to them. It's not too different from a video game release that ends up being worse than what people were expecting.
 

osby

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
12,482
#48
The problem is that while people finally got King K. Rool, finding out that he's flat out bad is like a huge insult to them. It's not too different from a video game release that ends up being worse than what people were expecting.
I disagree, they are nothing alike. A video game's quality is supposed to be over a certain threshold if it wants to meet with its fan base's expectations. But there is no way to make every single character in a fighting game equally good, especially in a roster this large.

Also if people take a fictional character's tournament viability as a personal insult, I think they really need to think about their priorities.
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
6,062
Location
Canada, Quebec
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
NNID
meleebrawler
#49
I dunno what it is about K. Rool's appearances that's supposed to lead one to believe he'd be very strong competitively. He uses exploitable, gimmicky tactics in his boss fights, and in spin-off appearances he's slower and stronger than DK. You certainly can't play the "unfaithful" card like people tend to do with characters like Ganondorf. The only character whose poor performance has been even remotely intentional is :pichumelee:. However, big heavy characters have always been better in free-for alls than 1-on-1s, and K. Rool is certainly good at taking potshots while being sturdy enough to withstand retaliation.
 
Last edited:

OnyanRings

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2019
Messages
126
Location
THE HYPER ZONE
#50
I dunno what it is about K. Rool's appearances that's supposed to lead one to believe he'd be very strong competitively. He uses exploitable, gimmicky tactics in his boss fights, and in spin-off appearances he's slower and stronger than DK. You certainly can't play the "unfaithful" card like people tend to do with characters like Ganondorf. The only character whose poor performance has been even remotely intentional is :pichumelee:. However, big heavy characters have always been better in free-for alls than 1-on-1s, and K. Rool is certainly good at taking potshots while being sturdy enough to withstand retaliation.
Yeah, K rool is the most "faithful to the original" character in smash. (Along with Simon and Richter.)
 

Porygon2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
188
#51
Have definitely felt similar things. I think the speculation taps into that playground gossip part of the brain that gets you being a child again. My heart races for a good elite battle, but it's over in five minutes. Speculation about Ridley kept the fanboy synapses firing for years.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
6,292
Location
Miami, NYC
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
NNID
NapoleonPlays
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
#52
The problem is that while people finally got King K. Rool, finding out that he's flat out bad is like a huge insult to them. It's not too different from a video game release that ends up being worse than what people were expecting.
As a member of the "them" of which you speak, I have to fully disagree.
The love put into the design of K Rool is what matters to the people I surrounded myself in his many dark days. As a fan of the character- I was excited to see him treasured in his execution, not to mention the possibility that this could help his overall resurrection.

You know what can change with a simple update? The entirety of what makes a character 'bad.' It legitimately doesnt even matter if you arent on a professional level.

Maybe in my late old twenties I am a stickler for Sakurai's information- but he made a great argument, statistically, as to why forums are incompetent when it comes to opinion of a 'bad' character. If anyone is too low, they will get buffed. It's a nonsensical reason to be frustrated.
 

Xelrog

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
516
Location
Battle Ground, WA
Switch FC
SW 2367 4933 3404
#53
I liked that Ganondorf was in Smash even when he was bottom tier, personally. His viability really didn't affect my enjoyment of the character or the fact that he was represented.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
23,448
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
#54
Really, I just don't want the game to try to be a beat-em-up. Fighting the same mooks over and over again is just insufferable to me, and it's not the game I want when I buy Smash Bros. Subspace was incredibly obnoxious trying to navigate when you're just pelted with stupid annoying enemies at every turn. They're not fun to fight. They're fodder. Tedium.

Even if I say it's conceivable that there could be a platforming singleplayer campaign, given that each level was tailored to a specific character (or pool of characters with very similar mobility)... what's the challenge, then? If there are enemies, how do you make them more interesting than beat-em-up fodder? Spend the budget to design fifty thousand unique enemies with unique abilities and behavior? If there are no enemies and you're just navigating obstacles like spikes and pits, why am I playing that in Smash Bros. and not just playing a game that was designed to be a pure platformer?

I just don't see any end that results in a fun, in-depth singleplayer experience, much less one that does so on a reasonable budget.
It could be fixed by having certain RPG-elements into this? Making fights more difficult because the enemies become stronger as you progress? And you can upgrade certain attacks as you go? That's how I would approach this I think.
 

Xelrog

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
516
Location
Battle Ground, WA
Switch FC
SW 2367 4933 3404
#55
It could be fixed by having certain RPG-elements into this? Making fights more difficult because the enemies become stronger as you progress? And you can upgrade certain attacks as you go? That's how I would approach this I think.
What do you mean by "more difficult," though? New enemies, new AI behavior? Adding HP and damage to mooks just increases tedium, not difficulty, in my opinion. The enemy has to be fun and dynamic to fight before anything else.

I suppose if they were somehow able to take playable character opponent AI and apply it to every enemy in the game, that would be a start.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,137
#56
Really, I just don't want the game to try to be a beat-em-up. Fighting the same mooks over and over again is just insufferable to me, and it's not the game I want when I buy Smash Bros. Subspace was incredibly obnoxious trying to navigate when you're just pelted with stupid annoying enemies at every turn. They're not fun to fight. They're fodder. Tedium.

Even if I say it's conceivable that there could be a platforming singleplayer campaign, given that each level was tailored to a specific character (or pool of characters with very similar mobility)... what's the challenge, then? If there are enemies, how do you make them more interesting than beat-em-up fodder? Spend the budget to design fifty thousand unique enemies with unique abilities and behavior? If there are no enemies and you're just navigating obstacles like spikes and pits, why am I playing that in Smash Bros. and not just playing a game that was designed to be a pure platformer?

I just don't see any end that results in a fun, in-depth singleplayer experience, much less one that does so on a reasonable budget.
So we have a good solution then: decrease enemy density, and instead balance difficulty more around a balance of enemy terrain and enemy placement.

Also, I'd personally want Melee Adventure x Subspace for the promise of fighting a collection of all Nintendo enemies in a trek through various Nintendo-inspired platforming stages. It doesn't have to be the most polished thing ever to work; hell Kirby games have never had the best level design, and I still love it for playing with the various abilities alone.

And no, Smash Run isn't good enough.
 
Top