TANORI
Smash Journeyman
Hi people well as the title says i need some help against him, any good advice will be great.
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I need some advise VS MK
- Thread starter TANORI
- Start date
My advice: Stay the **** away from him. His attacks over power and outrange most of toon links attacks, so you're going to want to keep Meta Knight at a range with projectiles. Despite the fact that Toon Link tend to **** things in the air, Meta Knight is actually dominant in the air when it comes to Toon Link so you have to be very careful to avoid trying to launch an aerial assault on the MK.
One thing that you should be using a lot in this match up is you're zair, as it's one of few moves that can out distance MK. You're nair is also useful as an aerial with more range than your fair or dair which you shouldn't expect to hit MK unless you get a good opportunity to punish him.
I believe all of TLs projectiles will knock MK out of his tornado so keep that in mind. Also, get used to using you're projectiles to edge gaurd, because if you try to chase him out to knock him away, he's just as likely to retaliate in kind and again, his attacks have a greater reach.
This match up is one of Toon links most difficult, the biggest thing will be keeping the big bad MK at a range, which will be difficult given that most MKs will be gunning to shove their sword down you're throat and MK isn't exactly a slow character.
One thing that you should be using a lot in this match up is you're zair, as it's one of few moves that can out distance MK. You're nair is also useful as an aerial with more range than your fair or dair which you shouldn't expect to hit MK unless you get a good opportunity to punish him.
I believe all of TLs projectiles will knock MK out of his tornado so keep that in mind. Also, get used to using you're projectiles to edge gaurd, because if you try to chase him out to knock him away, he's just as likely to retaliate in kind and again, his attacks have a greater reach.
This match up is one of Toon links most difficult, the biggest thing will be keeping the big bad MK at a range, which will be difficult given that most MKs will be gunning to shove their sword down you're throat and MK isn't exactly a slow character.
Do not go in and charge at MK because it will result in you getting *****. With that being said, here are a couple of tips.
> Always have a bomb handy just in case he decides to get tornado spammy in which you have something you can punish him with.
> You can also stop the tornado with your rang' and arrow. But it has to be at the very beginning of the animation, or else he will tear through it. So again, bombs will be your best friends.
> Your Nair and Zair are key to this fight. Use Zair to space him out, if he blocks your Nair, immediately do an arrow cancel. This often catches them off guard.
> MK will try to get very close to you, if you are ballsy like me you can get VERY close to him when he is at low percentages. Wait for him to attack (usually will be a dsmash) then utilt him until you know its enough for you to try and pull off a string of bair's.
> Abuse your projectiles when he gives you space.
> Always have a bomb handy just in case he decides to get tornado spammy in which you have something you can punish him with.
> You can also stop the tornado with your rang' and arrow. But it has to be at the very beginning of the animation, or else he will tear through it. So again, bombs will be your best friends.
> Your Nair and Zair are key to this fight. Use Zair to space him out, if he blocks your Nair, immediately do an arrow cancel. This often catches them off guard.
> MK will try to get very close to you, if you are ballsy like me you can get VERY close to him when he is at low percentages. Wait for him to attack (usually will be a dsmash) then utilt him until you know its enough for you to try and pull off a string of bair's.
> Abuse your projectiles when he gives you space.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
FROM JESIAH TEG'S MATCHUP THREAD:
Meta Knight- This can be a very difficult matchup for Toon Link...He doesn't **** Meta Knight nearly as hard as people say. For every advantage Toon Link has on Meta Knight, Meta Knight has just as many on him. Even more. To begin with, you will never approach Meta Knight. This does not mean that you will be camping him though. You will be trying, but you'll quickly find that Meta Knight is much too fast to be camped. He can get through your projectiles easily due to his speed. You're going to find yourself close range most of the time, but you're going to want to aim for mid range. If you can't keep mid range spacing, then basically just try and stay as far away from Meta Knight as you can. For me, I normally find that although the best position vs Meta Knight is mid range, I am satisfied with just outside of Meta Knight's range...In between close and mid range. It is at this range, that you want to alternate between racking up damage with projectiles, and keeping Meta Knight away with your attacks. You'll soon realize that this is not easy.
Let me make this simple for you: Meta Knight ***** Toon Link up close. There is nothing he can do once Meta Knight gets in his face, provided the Meta Knight player is halfway decent. All of his attacks are faster than yours, so if he just walks up to you and attacks, you are at an immediate disadvantage. Don't bother trying to punish him out of shield either, because none of your attacks are fast enough to do...You'll find that you'll drop your shield to punish, only to get hit by Meta Knight again due to his quick sword and minimal lag. You don't outrange him, so don't bother trying. If you hit his shield, you will likely meet a Dsmash to the face. You do not want to hit Meta Knight's shield, unless you DI away with an aerial, which is difficult since Meta Knight's attacks are so quick, and your aerials simply do not come out fast enough. If you try and roll behind him, you will get hit by any of Meta Knight's moves, since they all hit in front and behind him, which I think is absolutely ******** but whatever, that's how it is. If Meta Knight gets up close, you have very few options. I find myself grabbing a lot, since it's the only attack Toon Link has that outranges Meta Knight, and it covers the option of MK shielding. If he spotdodges however, you're dead. This is just common sense though, and a good player will wait for his opponent to spotdodge before grabbing, if he knows his opponent will spotdodge. Also, while it isn't the best option for punishing an attack normally, Jab Series out of shield works very well to get Meta Knight off your back. Toon Link's Jab series is quick enough to punish Meta Knight's barely noticeable lag, and while it doesn't do much damage, it helps to regain optimal spacing. Your 2 best options when Meta Knight gets up close is either Jab Series out of shield, or grab him and throw him away. You're also going to want to be careful of his Tornado. If you manage to see the Tornado coming, throw a Bomb at it or Dair it to knock MK out of it. If you find yourself caught in it, mash Up and Airdodge to avoid the last hit, which is the strongest.
As far as killing goes, Meta Knight can be a pain to kill...Not because he lives long, but for the fact that, as stated above, he completely dominates Toon Link up close. Your main killing moves are Usmash, Uair, and Fsmash. At higher percents, Meta Knight can easily DI and jump out of the second hit of the Fsmash, so count that out vs a good Meta Knight. Usmash as always works as a killing move, but you're going to have to find your way inside Meta Knight to hit with it...Wait for him to approach in the air, then run under him and use Usmash is probably you're safest bet. If you have a good hand on your opponent and you know he/she will spotdodge, bait it and punish with Usmash. Basically, it's not so much a specific character strategy getting the Usmash off, it's being a good player. Uair works well, because it outranges Meta Knight's Dair and it has insane priority. If you can get under Meta Knight in the air, and then follow his airdodge DI with your Uair, at higher percents you should kill. Try setting this up with a Uthrow, as that is probably the only way you will get Meta Knight above you. Now, here comes the bad part. Meta Knight has a much easier time KO'ing you than you do him. If you hit his shield at higher percents, you'll likely meet your end to a Dsmash. Once he throws you off the edge, it's very difficult to get back on due to Meta Knight's amazing edgeguarding. His Up B, as always, is a pain to get around, but I'd be more worried about his edgeguarding. He can even grab the ledge, and as you are recovering below him, drop down and Dair you to your death...Through your Up B. Yeah, it's homo. Be very very careful at higher percents, and try to rack up as much damage as you can before he kills you...Because he will kill you lol. A nice edgeguarding trick I found, is to pull out a bomb, jump just over the ledge, and drop the bomb using Z when Meta Knight uses his Up B. I haven't found a way to follow up after this yet, but so far it works to rack up damage.
So, this matchup is in Meta Knight's favor. His up close game is devastating to Toon Link...It easily outweighs anything Toon Link has vs Meta Knight. The only reason I didn't give this match a 7:3 is because Meta Knight can have a tough time at mid range getting past Toon Link's wall of projectiles/sword/hookshot. 6:4 Meta Knight
Unless you already read it...
Meta Knight- This can be a very difficult matchup for Toon Link...He doesn't **** Meta Knight nearly as hard as people say. For every advantage Toon Link has on Meta Knight, Meta Knight has just as many on him. Even more. To begin with, you will never approach Meta Knight. This does not mean that you will be camping him though. You will be trying, but you'll quickly find that Meta Knight is much too fast to be camped. He can get through your projectiles easily due to his speed. You're going to find yourself close range most of the time, but you're going to want to aim for mid range. If you can't keep mid range spacing, then basically just try and stay as far away from Meta Knight as you can. For me, I normally find that although the best position vs Meta Knight is mid range, I am satisfied with just outside of Meta Knight's range...In between close and mid range. It is at this range, that you want to alternate between racking up damage with projectiles, and keeping Meta Knight away with your attacks. You'll soon realize that this is not easy.
Let me make this simple for you: Meta Knight ***** Toon Link up close. There is nothing he can do once Meta Knight gets in his face, provided the Meta Knight player is halfway decent. All of his attacks are faster than yours, so if he just walks up to you and attacks, you are at an immediate disadvantage. Don't bother trying to punish him out of shield either, because none of your attacks are fast enough to do...You'll find that you'll drop your shield to punish, only to get hit by Meta Knight again due to his quick sword and minimal lag. You don't outrange him, so don't bother trying. If you hit his shield, you will likely meet a Dsmash to the face. You do not want to hit Meta Knight's shield, unless you DI away with an aerial, which is difficult since Meta Knight's attacks are so quick, and your aerials simply do not come out fast enough. If you try and roll behind him, you will get hit by any of Meta Knight's moves, since they all hit in front and behind him, which I think is absolutely ******** but whatever, that's how it is. If Meta Knight gets up close, you have very few options. I find myself grabbing a lot, since it's the only attack Toon Link has that outranges Meta Knight, and it covers the option of MK shielding. If he spotdodges however, you're dead. This is just common sense though, and a good player will wait for his opponent to spotdodge before grabbing, if he knows his opponent will spotdodge. Also, while it isn't the best option for punishing an attack normally, Jab Series out of shield works very well to get Meta Knight off your back. Toon Link's Jab series is quick enough to punish Meta Knight's barely noticeable lag, and while it doesn't do much damage, it helps to regain optimal spacing. Your 2 best options when Meta Knight gets up close is either Jab Series out of shield, or grab him and throw him away. You're also going to want to be careful of his Tornado. If you manage to see the Tornado coming, throw a Bomb at it or Dair it to knock MK out of it. If you find yourself caught in it, mash Up and Airdodge to avoid the last hit, which is the strongest.
As far as killing goes, Meta Knight can be a pain to kill...Not because he lives long, but for the fact that, as stated above, he completely dominates Toon Link up close. Your main killing moves are Usmash, Uair, and Fsmash. At higher percents, Meta Knight can easily DI and jump out of the second hit of the Fsmash, so count that out vs a good Meta Knight. Usmash as always works as a killing move, but you're going to have to find your way inside Meta Knight to hit with it...Wait for him to approach in the air, then run under him and use Usmash is probably you're safest bet. If you have a good hand on your opponent and you know he/she will spotdodge, bait it and punish with Usmash. Basically, it's not so much a specific character strategy getting the Usmash off, it's being a good player. Uair works well, because it outranges Meta Knight's Dair and it has insane priority. If you can get under Meta Knight in the air, and then follow his airdodge DI with your Uair, at higher percents you should kill. Try setting this up with a Uthrow, as that is probably the only way you will get Meta Knight above you. Now, here comes the bad part. Meta Knight has a much easier time KO'ing you than you do him. If you hit his shield at higher percents, you'll likely meet your end to a Dsmash. Once he throws you off the edge, it's very difficult to get back on due to Meta Knight's amazing edgeguarding. His Up B, as always, is a pain to get around, but I'd be more worried about his edgeguarding. He can even grab the ledge, and as you are recovering below him, drop down and Dair you to your death...Through your Up B. Yeah, it's homo. Be very very careful at higher percents, and try to rack up as much damage as you can before he kills you...Because he will kill you lol. A nice edgeguarding trick I found, is to pull out a bomb, jump just over the ledge, and drop the bomb using Z when Meta Knight uses his Up B. I haven't found a way to follow up after this yet, but so far it works to rack up damage.
So, this matchup is in Meta Knight's favor. His up close game is devastating to Toon Link...It easily outweighs anything Toon Link has vs Meta Knight. The only reason I didn't give this match a 7:3 is because Meta Knight can have a tough time at mid range getting past Toon Link's wall of projectiles/sword/hookshot. 6:4 Meta Knight
Unless you already read it...
MrPhox
Tamed Beast
the mach tornado can be stopped at the begining of the animation.
but, if he's already in the tornado here are a few ways to stop it.
-throw a boomerang angled down from the air so that you hit the top of the tornado
-fully charge your bow (not realistic to setup but if you happen to have started charging when he began tornado you might have a shot if you keep your cool and continue to charge all the way)
-bomb works
-dair directly on him
-poke the very top of MK himself with Zair
usually i shield the entire thing
then shield grab, dash grab or pivot grab him when he's vulnerable after
also i shield and if he lands behind me i sometimes jump cancel my shield into my upb on the ground. it does a decent job
but, if he's already in the tornado here are a few ways to stop it.
-throw a boomerang angled down from the air so that you hit the top of the tornado
-fully charge your bow (not realistic to setup but if you happen to have started charging when he began tornado you might have a shot if you keep your cool and continue to charge all the way)
-bomb works
-dair directly on him
-poke the very top of MK himself with Zair
usually i shield the entire thing
then shield grab, dash grab or pivot grab him when he's vulnerable after
also i shield and if he lands behind me i sometimes jump cancel my shield into my upb on the ground. it does a decent job
Santi
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,931
Alright I think I can help a little with this Matchup. I play a sick nasty MK everyday Haha 
Watch these videos first. They are the most recent and were recorded this morning before I went to work.
I know I'm still a little rusty from vacation and play like crap in them but the matches are still close because of some things I do against MK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wxAsoU2kSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myOFfp7FrTQ
Here are some general pointers.
1. First things First... Be afraid but not too afraid
We know MK looks scary haha and I'll admit I get scared when I play him. But don't be too intimidated and just shake in your shield. That's when a good Mk will just **** and be able to read you a lot easier. Stand your ground with Toon but don't be stupid and just charge into his ****.
2. DONT GET OFF STAGE!!!
See how I get stage spiked and almost gimped when I get off stage?? No no don't do that. If you lose an early stock say goodbye to the match It sucks. Do your best not to get off stage. A good MK like Dojo will pressure you to the edges when your running away shooting projectiles. Its tough. You will get hit off stage but just minimize how many times it happens because eventually you will get caught by MK... which leads me to tip numer 3
3. MIX UP YOUR RECOVERY
Ha. It's important not to get predictable when going back on stage. When your hit offstage do your best to survive and make it back so you can pile on some more damage before going out. Don't try to fight MK offstage like I stupidly do. I sometimes try to fair MK and Dojo will easily avoid it and then just Dair Dair or Nair me. ( 14 second mark on match one.) Dont fair so much eaither like I did ha I was just testing it out cause I Fair more against players like Falco and Rob and wanted to see how it did against MK... not soo good.
4. DONT GET TOO PREDICTABLE
Mix it up a bit. With both projectiles and smashes. Thats how you will put more damage on MK when he's not knowing what he's defending and how he's going to defend it. Some will charge after you Nair expecting you to quickdraw, the MK will perfectshield the arrow and punish the little lag after the arrow. Mix stuff like that up. Next time Nair like you would but instead of doing a quickdraw... throw a jab combo into that batballs face. Dont get too pattern-like as I was in those videos. Also sometimes charging an upsmash or dsmash a little longer will throw them off and get you the kill like it did in the FD match. Just mix it up and dont get too robotic and predictable like I get.
5. SPACING AND SPAM AND PUNISH
Learn your spacing with everything. Aerials and just everything. Learn the distance that you can hit MK and can get away without getting punished. This just naturally will come after playing the matchup so much and you learn from getting *****. SPAM SPAM and spam. Way more than I did in the videos. I should of used a little more arrows. Spam smart though. MOst of the time when you spam smart you put more damage on Mk than just throwing out this and that without even thinking. Punish MK when he hits your shield in the air. He should almost always eat a Nair or Bair when he attacks your sheild in the air. Its just hard because his aerials come out fast. Just be ready... and right when that move ends... jump out and show him what that butterknife can do.
AND YOU HAVE A WAND!!!!!!!
:D
USE IT!!!
When Mk is dead ofcourse
Then say Avada Kadavra
Also here's a little trick I use on mostly MK because of his height.
I think I've posted this in another thread. I dont remember. Anyways....
When your retreating with your projectiles the MK will chase.
Retreat bomb pull.... then when they chase...footstool and throw that bomb down. its usually a free hit when done correctly, and if you read right it can lead to another hit after the bomb hits them. Bair Uair etc.
etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zzO5GRbATE
Look at that match. Its around the 52 second mark. Not perfectly executed but whatever.
Hope this helped
It's my goal that TL's will start owning MK's and be holding that pig high at the end of the match :D
Watch these videos first. They are the most recent and were recorded this morning before I went to work.
I know I'm still a little rusty from vacation and play like crap in them but the matches are still close because of some things I do against MK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wxAsoU2kSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myOFfp7FrTQ
Here are some general pointers.
1. First things First... Be afraid but not too afraid
We know MK looks scary haha and I'll admit I get scared when I play him. But don't be too intimidated and just shake in your shield. That's when a good Mk will just **** and be able to read you a lot easier. Stand your ground with Toon but don't be stupid and just charge into his ****.
2. DONT GET OFF STAGE!!!
See how I get stage spiked and almost gimped when I get off stage?? No no don't do that. If you lose an early stock say goodbye to the match
It sucks. Do your best not to get off stage. A good MK like Dojo will pressure you to the edges when your running away shooting projectiles. Its tough. You will get hit off stage but just minimize how many times it happens because eventually you will get caught by MK... which leads me to tip numer 33. MIX UP YOUR RECOVERY
Ha. It's important not to get predictable when going back on stage. When your hit offstage do your best to survive and make it back so you can pile on some more damage before going out. Don't try to fight MK offstage like I stupidly do. I sometimes try to fair MK and Dojo will easily avoid it and then just Dair Dair or Nair me. ( 14 second mark on match one.) Dont fair so much eaither like I did ha
I was just testing it out cause I Fair more against players like Falco and Rob and wanted to see how it did against MK... not soo good.4. DONT GET TOO PREDICTABLE
Mix it up a bit. With both projectiles and smashes. Thats how you will put more damage on MK when he's not knowing what he's defending and how he's going to defend it. Some will charge after you Nair expecting you to quickdraw, the MK will perfectshield the arrow and punish the little lag after the arrow. Mix stuff like that up. Next time Nair like you would but instead of doing a quickdraw... throw a jab combo into that batballs face. Dont get too pattern-like as I was in those videos. Also sometimes charging an upsmash or dsmash a little longer will throw them off and get you the kill like it did in the FD match. Just mix it up and dont get too robotic and predictable like I get.
5. SPACING AND SPAM AND PUNISH
Learn your spacing with everything. Aerials and just everything. Learn the distance that you can hit MK and can get away without getting punished. This just naturally will come after playing the matchup so much and you learn from getting *****. SPAM SPAM and spam. Way more than I did in the videos. I should of used a little more arrows. Spam smart though. MOst of the time when you spam smart you put more damage on Mk than just throwing out this and that without even thinking. Punish MK when he hits your shield in the air. He should almost always eat a Nair or Bair when he attacks your sheild in the air. Its just hard because his aerials come out fast. Just be ready... and right when that move ends... jump out and show him what that butterknife can do.
AND YOU HAVE A WAND!!!!!!!
:D
USE IT!!!
When Mk is dead ofcourse
Then say Avada Kadavra
Also here's a little trick I use on mostly MK because of his height.
I think I've posted this in another thread. I dont remember. Anyways....
When your retreating with your projectiles the MK will chase.
Retreat bomb pull.... then when they chase...footstool and throw that bomb down. its usually a free hit when done correctly, and if you read right it can lead to another hit after the bomb hits them. Bair Uair etc.
etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zzO5GRbATE
Look at that match. Its around the 52 second mark. Not perfectly executed but whatever.
Hope this helped
It's my goal that TL's will start owning MK's and be holding that pig high at the end of the match :D
So...Falco has bread and we have pork? o_O
Not to hi-jack this topic, but remember when someone knocked Falco's Reflector back at him with Fair?
Yeah, it's actually seems to be frame dependent. When he's about to kick it out (initial frames), you can send it back. I've tried it with my Marth and with Toon Link's other aerials and it works now and then if you get it right (since Falco should not get predictable with the Reflector anyway).
Wow, Santi, I wished my friends mained good MKs so I would learn how to not get *****. =O Good advice, you'll be a leading contributor in the a future match-up thread against MK, eh?
Not to hi-jack this topic, but remember when someone knocked Falco's Reflector back at him with Fair?
Yeah, it's actually seems to be frame dependent. When he's about to kick it out (initial frames), you can send it back. I've tried it with my Marth and with Toon Link's other aerials and it works now and then if you get it right (since Falco should not get predictable with the Reflector anyway).
Wow, Santi, I wished my friends mained good MKs so I would learn how to not get *****. =O Good advice, you'll be a leading contributor in the a future match-up thread against MK, eh?
Santi
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,931
Hands off my pig
Yea def.
If this advice really helps some people out I'll for sure continue to try to contribute more knowledge.
ZeroXMachine
Smash Apprentice
That's great stuff, Santi. I learned a little more about Toon Link and a lot more about MK from your stuff. MK's scary :/
AvantGarde
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2008
- Messages
- 42
One thing I do with MK and heavy approaching characters in general is keep my DI facing them when on the defensive, because you have more options. Your Zair will get them off you pretty quickly, and I love holding a bomb, SHing backwards, and then when they start flailing at me dropping the bomb, they never see it coming and run right into it, leaving you close enough to nair.