I need help for the Ness vs Sheik matchup topic.

[PKNintendo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116

I'm redoing this week, so I need reevaluation. GO.

 

[East]

who's sheik?

<,< We main F-tilt...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

eh... I normally use Zelda for ness actually. Sheik for Lucas though.

but when I DO chose to stay sheik the whole time, hello to EASY fair gimps vs. PK Thunder.

 

[Blad01]

Hello to 50% combo

Grab > Pummel > Ftilt > Jab > Grab > Repeat > ... > Throw / Grab-release to Fair / FTilt to Nair

But i play a good Ness every week, and the match-up is not AS easy as Sheik's main would think initially.

 

[Ref]

Grab > Pummel > Ftilt > Jab > Grab > Repeat

This does not work... Ness can avoid it by just holding away, though the forward tilt lock out of a grab release is still pain.

On top of that Sheik's pummel isn't fast enough to get someone to ground break every time it's more like 50% if they aren't trying to make sure they jump break.

 

[Blad01]

Grab > Pummel > Ftilt > Jab > Grab > Repeat

This does not work... Ness can avoid it by just holding away, though the forward tilt lock out of a grab release is still pain.

Hum, i was not sure if this was possible for Ness... Apparently yes ^^

Anyways, i personnally do a FTilt lock out of grab realease most of the time, and as you said, the result is the same (potentially 50% combo)

On top of that Sheik's pummel isn't fast enough to get someone to ground break every time it's more like 50% if they aren't trying to make sure they jump break.

Actually i was talking about a 0% to 50% combo. At early percents, Sheik's pummel guanranties a sliding break.

But you're right, at mid/high percents, a Fair on Jump Break is preferable.

 

[Ref]

Umm f air on jump break does not work, and Sheiks pummel does not guarantee a ground break (or as you call it sliding break). Meaning Ness can jump break whenever he wants if he times breaking right. With grab breaks Percents don't matter also.

You can't DI jump breaks, I don't know I get this feeling you think that.

F air on jump break was proven to be false by the guy who made this topic.

Sigh. Doesn't anyone here have a brother? Okay I just tested this out. Unlike wario, Lucas or Mario, Ness actually has a kick-*** jumpbreak. Sheik can't reach him with any aerial/attack.


On the negative side, she can grab you, and grab release ftilt you.


But she can't CG grab you.

Forward tilt is painful.

 

[Blad01]

Umm f air on jump break does not work, and Sheiks pummel does not guarantee a ground break (or as you call it sliding break). Meaning Ness can jump break whenever he wants if he times breaking right. With grab breaks Percents don't matter also.

Usually, at early percents, you just have the time to pummel once before the break... But i guess Ness could just wait the pummel, then break, if that's what you mean. Actually, i haven't thought to this, since usually my opponents break as fast as possible.

Oh, and Sheik's pummels are faster if you don't mash the button, but wait for the end of the previous... (It's the same thing for everyone, but a lot of people seem to ignore it. I don't mean that you ignore it, btw, since Ness still has room to Jump break, but a reduced room)

You can't DI jump breaks, I don't know I get this feeling you think that.

ôO No, i don't think that. But i didn't know that holding away with could escape then FTilt > Grab > FTilt > Grab (with a ground break).

F air on jump break was proven to be false by the guy who made this topic.

... Bad news... I had this feeling, but i thought that was my timing that wasn't perfect :/

 

[Ref]

Ah I see. Okay, thanks. Anyway sheik does have the advantage right now it stands: 60-40 Sheik with the advantage, anyone feel different?

 

[popsofctown]

I do grab->pummel pummel-> dash grab-> pummel pummel-> ......
Should it work? I don't think so. Does it? Yes, somehow. Sometimes i'm more practical.

I don't know the matchup number for Ness v. Sheik, but don't anyone shout it to be 70-30 one way or another. It's within 10 points of 50-50.

 

[Wildfire393]

Here's my thoughts:

Sheik's Tilt-range gives Ness a lot of trouble. It pretty much makes it so he has to use Fairs all over the place, because nothing else will get through the tilt wall. Of course, Fairs are an effective strategy, just watch for potential punishment due to its predictability.
Sheik's projectile game beats Ness's due to its speed and longer range. Needles keep the Psi Kid from being able to effectively use his PK attacks most of the time, and even when he gets the opportunity to, Sheik is usually agile enough to avoid them.
Tilt Lock savages Ness, especially from a grab break. Ness lacks any combo with quite this damage-racking potential, though does have some alright combos.
Ness is one of the most vulnerable characters to off-stage guarding. Sheik is one of the best perpetraters of Off-stage guarding. This equation does not add up well for Ness.
Ness's best kill option is his backthrow. Sheik's Jab, tilt, and grab all outrange this and stop it cold.

I'd say closer to 70-30 than 60-40.

 

[Brinzy]

Ah I see. Okay, thanks. Anyway sheik does have the advantage right now it stands: 60-40 Sheik with the advantage, anyone feel different?

That's perfect.

 

[PKNintendo]

Here's my thoughts:

Sheik's Tilt-range gives Ness a lot of trouble. It pretty much makes it so he has to use Fairs all over the place, because nothing else will get through the tilt wall. Of course, Fairs are an effective strategy, just watch for potential punishment due to its predictability.
Sheik's projectile game beats Ness's due to its speed and longer range. Needles keep the Psi Kid from being able to effectively use his PK attacks most of the time, and even when he gets the opportunity to, Sheik is usually agile enough to avoid them.
Tilt Lock savages Ness, especially from a grab break. Ness lacks any combo with quite this damage-racking potential, though does have some alright combos.
Ness is one of the most vulnerable characters to off-stage guarding. Sheik is one of the best perpetraters of Off-stage guarding. This equation does not add up well for Ness.
Ness's best kill option is his backthrow. Sheik's Jab, tilt, and grab all outrange this and stop it cold.

I'd say closer to 70-30 than 60-40.

Incorrect. He also has his bat, PKT2 and his bair. Landing a backthrow on Sheik is WAY to hard.
Sheik tilt lock on Ness isn't unique, it can be done on other characters too, so I don't think Sheik ***** EVERYONE.

60-40 is something I agree with too.

 

[Blad01]

I also agree on 60-40.

On a side note, Sheik's Dair is very good when you are high in the airs, in a difficult position, since it destroys Pk Thunder (That Ness usually uses when you're too high / far).

So Sheik is pretty hard to kill with a PKT2, since she is very fast, her Dair destroys PKT. Sheiks only have to be carefull on PKT Tail.

Sheik will probably die from a Bair or a FSmash (that has a great range).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Side note.... PKT2 can kill sheik at, like, >30 damage <_<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PandjXb6qjM

 

[PKNintendo]

Side note.... PKT2 can kill sheik at, like, >30 damage <_<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PandjXb6qjM

XD. I need more discussions (Im going to use this thread in my topic)

Anyone else? Ankoku?

 

[Squidster]

Um... edge guarding ness is fun.
... on lylat! =D

 

[PKNintendo]

BUMPAGA! I need moar input...

 

[Blistering Speed]

65-35

10Igivereasons

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik moves fast, edgeguards, and can ftiltlock Ness. Ness is light and his recovery can be gimped by tossing a needle to halve his recovery distance. Zelda can be used if you somehow screw up the ftilt usmash KO.

65:35?

 

[ColinJF]

Ness is exactly median weight actually, not light (unless half the characters in the game are light).

(I haven't played this match up enough to comment on it.)

 

[Zankoku]

My mistake. He's still very killable.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

My mistake. He's still very killable.

yeah... but, honestly, I kill him more by gimps than by standard means. Especially when I go sheik rather than Zelda.

Even Zelda gimp kills him often though.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Sheik has a lot of advantages in this matchup especially when u take into account that the one that is gonna have to approach is ness because of needles. Sheik is faster and can score easy KOs through gimps. I say 65-35 in sheik's favor.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sheik moves fast, edgeguards, and can ftiltlock Ness. Ness is light and his recovery can be gimped by tossing a needle to halve his recovery distance. Zelda can be used if you somehow screw up the ftilt usmash KO.

65:35?

Shiek only Im afraid.

I have a question Ankoku, I know you are very skilled with Sheik e.c.t, but is Ness really at a 65-35?

I suppose Ness major pro is Sheiks lightness. I suppose gimping his recovery is possible, but his double jump is really good. It covers 3 blocks. (most recoveries cover 4-6 full) His Up B is a last resort.

There are other characters who are Ftilt locked, and other characters who have terrible recoveries.

I don't know, maybe it's 62-38?

 

[Zankoku]

If it's Sheik solo then you can put 60-40 if you like. I could care less about using Sheik solo against Ness unless I wanted to play low tier or something.