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"I need a weapon" - Master Chief

SuperNintendoKid

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If he makes it in, i will lowkey be happy and i will scream in pure joy of how unexpected it seems! i support!
 

Xevious 1

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Master chief is not a third party. He’s owned by Microsoft.

There has never been a “halo ds” or any halo game in development for Nintendo systems.

That video of a “halo ds game “, was just a video of a modded version of Golden eye rogue agent. Look at the video closely and you’ll notice it is the same interface, same game areas, all with just different skins.

So what I’m getting at is master chief has zero chance of being in smash, right up there with goku, shrek, and popeye.


Seriously what is it with people wanting some ridiculous characters in smash? Stop trying to turn smash into mugen. We’ve had more than enough guest characters over the years, (all of which are third parties, not characters owned by another console maker.) , it’s time to cut back on them and focus on Nintendo characters again.
I know this is on the first page, but this comment bugged me. Master Chief is not a ridiculous character in the slightest,

1. Phil Spencer, the head of Xbox, said he was okay with Banjo in Smash and I'd imagine he'd be just as okay with Master Chief as it is free advertising and it would be seen as a badge of honor for Xbox's mascot to be in the biggest gaming crossover franchise.
2. With the exception of Bayonetta, all of the third party characters are in because they are the most iconic of iconic in terms of video game characters, it didn't start out that way, but it is the direction they have been going as evident by Cloud being in because he is the most popular character in the most popular RPG franchise. Master Chief is easily the most iconic video game character not in Smash Bros, his franchise is the Star Wars of video games, it has been a critically praised franchise (except 5), it revolutionized console shooters, online on consoles, and has great story/lore.
3. I agree that they shouldn't just put any third party character in Smash. I think they should either be extremely close to Nintendo (Bayonetta, Banjo, Shantae, Simon), be among the most popular characters in gaming (Snake, Sonic, Cloud, Ryu, Pac Man), or both (Mega Man). Master Chief is not just any ridiculous character though as said in point 2, he easily stands alongside video game greats like Mario, DK, Link, Samus, Pikachu, Solid Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac Man, Ryu, and Cloud.
4. He is the mascot of a rival console. Sakurai loves holy **** reveals, and Master Chief would be the climax.
5. Halo music and Halo stage would be ****ing amazing to have in Smash
6. Unlike Goku,, Shrek, and Popeye. Chief started out and is know for being a video game character.

The only issues I see facing him are is if Nintendo would approve of Xbox characters on their console and Halo's lack of popularity in Japan

Also there is only 7 third party characters out of 65 currently, we are hardly drowning in third partys
 
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Juliusaurus

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If we get Banjo-Kazooie and Minecraft in the base game, Master Chief would be perfect for DLC, just about on the same level or greater as Cloud was for 4.

I'm all for it. Sure, unlike everyone else on the roster, Master Chief has never appeared on a Nintendo machine (unless you count the Minecraft skin), but he's at least still a video game originating character, and a massive icon at that. I feel that's all one needs for qualification.
 
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Smasherfan88

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I know this is on the first page, but this comment bugged me. Master Chief is not a ridiculous character in the slightest,

1. Phil Spencer, the head of Xbox, said he was okay with Banjo in Smash and I'd imagine he'd be just as okay with Master Chief as it is free advertising and it would be seen as a badge of honor for Xbox's mascot to be in the biggest gaming crossover franchise.
2. With the exception of Bayonetta, all of the third party characters are in because they are the most iconic of iconic in terms of video game characters, it didn't start out that way, but it is the direction they have been going as evident by Cloud being in because he is the most popular character in the most popular RPG franchise. Master Chief is easily the most iconic video game character not in Smash Bros, his franchise is the Star Wars of video games, it has been a critically praised franchise (except 5), it revolutionized console shooters, online on consoles, and has great story/lore.
3. I agree that they shouldn't just put any third party character in Smash. I think they should either be extremely close to Nintendo (Bayonetta, Banjo, Shantae, Simon), be among the most popular characters in gaming (Snake, Sonic, Cloud, Ryu, Pac Man), or both (Mega Man). Master Chief is not just any ridiculous character though as said in point 2, he easily stands alongside video game greats like Mario, DK, Link, Samus, Pikachu, Solid Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac Man, Ryu, and Cloud.
4. He is the mascot of a rival console. Sakurai loves holy **** reveals, and Master Chief would be the climax.
5. Halo music and Halo stage would be ****ing amazing to have in Smash
6. Unlike Goku,, Shrek, and Popeye. Chief started out and is know for being a video game character.

The only issues I see facing him are is if Nintendo would approve of Xbox characters on their console and Halo's lack of popularity in Japan

Also there is only 7 third party characters out of 65 currently, we are hardly drowning in third partys
Well, about the issue I don't think they'd really mind since Minecraft is on what, 3 of their systems? Crossplay is a thing between all Xbox and Switch shared games, and the fact the halo skin-pack was released for the Switch version of Minecraft, somewhat already giving and having Chief on a Nintendo platform, even if it is just a skin. That and apparently there was a canceled DS version of Halo at one point, as Microsoft didn't and still doesn't have a handheld system of their own.
 

nuclearneo577

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If Chief gets in, it would have to be as DLC (possibly alongside Banjo, imagine them both sharing a trailer), the roster for SSBU was finalized back in 2015, far before Nintendo and Microsoft got buddy buddy with Minecraft. Unlike Banjo who has a somewhat slim chance of being in the base roster due to his history, Chief has no prior connections to Nintendo on account of him having nothing to do with Rare.
 

AustarusIV

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I loved playing the Halo trilogy together with my brother when I was growing up. It’s still one of my all-time favorite shooter games, and while I don’t think he’ll probably make it into SSBU (though I could be wrong of course), I would be hyped as heck to see Master Chief playable, especially considering he would more or less be the Cloud of this game in terms of shock reveals.
 

ZealousGamer

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If I were to work on Master Chief's move set; I'd say the Energy Sword makes more sense. The Gravity Hammer could work for him as it is easily recognizable. Along with the Halo 1 Magnum, Assault Rifle, Plasma Grenades (because "bet you can't stick it" ;):p), and Spartan Laser would make a great move set for him.
 

DNeon

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I always pictured gravity hammer somewhere in the moveset. I always though it made sense as an aerial (probably fair) that has a spike like Mario and Yoshi's, plus that give it the potential to have momentum shifting properties on MC depending on how it connects like how it launches you in game. Also obviously acts as a reflector.

I personally see the energy sword functioning to cover melee ranged moves that don't make sense to be a pistol whip or gun butt attack, like a down tilt.
 
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smashingDoug

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Thinking I could see a lot being worked In to the move set

The hammer would be his Down A, while the Sword Forward A.

But I think being able to Ninja should be worked in the the move set

Maybe BXR as well lol
 
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Amestris Square

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Master Chief is incredibly mainstream already, the issue is his Japanese popularity and of course getting him in with Nintendo.
he could be the little mac or ridley of non-nintendo characters, these arent popular in japan but they accept that we wanted them

also halo peaked at japan at halo 3(well everywhere) it even boost the 360 for just a little bit, nothing like other franchises sure, but hey at least it made it so japan was aware of it

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/halo-3-big-in-japan/1100-6180460/
 

BirthNote

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Honestly a variant of the Gravity Hammer would make a really fun item too. Like the Donkey Kong and Golden Hammer...

Just thought i’d post this here:
https://youtu.be/ooJGVBygzuQ

Two of my favorite game series collide...if only it would happen in Smash.
Yo! That vid was dope! I saw their other vids and now I'm subbed, thanks for sharing!
 

Swop

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Dropped by from the Banjo Thread, if Banjo got in then the chief would be an excellent choice, he's Iconic, comes from a genre of Video games not yet represented in smash, and has a wide movepool of different weapons to use.

You know how many Jaws would drop if they saw the one character Everyone-EVERYONE fully believes to be impossible- joining the roster of smash?

Super smash bros. would never be the same after it.
 

Xevious 1

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I don't understand the people who don't like third party's not associated with Nintendo in Smash. I don't want just any third party character thrown in, I believe they should have to be among the most iconic video game characters who represent an aspect of gaming (Snake, Ryu, Pac Man, Sonic, Cloud, Chief) or be so close to Nintendo that they are pratically Nintendo (Bayonetta, Banjo, Shantae, Simon) or both (Mega Man).

Sonic: mascot of the Sega consoles. Mario's rival
Pac Man: the most popular arcade character.
Cloud: most popular character in the most notable RPG franchise. He sold the PS1 and made jrpgs more popular
Ryu: main character in the most popular fighting game
Snake: represents the stealth genre and his series is known for being revolutionary in gaming cinematics
Master Chief: mascot of Xbox. Paved the way for online console gaming. Has one of the most expansive lores in gaming. Represents the FPS genre

The fact that we have the potential for all these iconic characters fighting each other in one game is more interesting than then having all third partys be in purely because they are close to Nintendo.
:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultpikachu::ultsonic::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultsnake::ultryu::ultcloud:

 

BirthNote

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I don't understand the people who don't like third party's not associated with Nintendo in Smash. I don't want just any third party character thrown in, I believe they should have to be among the most iconic video game characters who represent an aspect of gaming (Snake, Ryu, Pac Man, Sonic, Cloud, Chief) or be so close to Nintendo that they are pratically Nintendo (Bayonetta, Banjo, Shantae, Simon) or both (Mega Man).

Sonic: mascot of the Sega consoles. Mario's rival
Pac Man: the most popular arcade character.
Cloud: most popular character in the most notable RPG franchise. He sold the PS1 and made jrpgs more popular
Ryu: main character in the most popular fighting game
Snake: represents the stealth genre and his series is known for being revolutionary in gaming cinematics
Master Chief: mascot of Xbox. Paved the way for online console gaming. Has one of the most expansive lores in gaming. Represents the FPS genre

The fact that we have the potential for all these iconic characters fighting each other in one game is more interesting than then having all third partys be in purely because they are close to Nintendo.
:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultpikachu::ultsonic::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultsnake::ultryu::ultcloud:

I agree with you, just wanna point out that MC would standout even more because he isn't 3rd Party. He's 1st Party Microsoft, so if he or Banjo or Steve make it in they'd set a new paradigm, and Smash would once again shatter our understanding of roster choices. Either of them would be the first of a new trend and open up yet another door we didn't know was there, which would be ****ING AMAZING!!! After that the most mindblowing thing they could pull off would be a 1st Party Sony character...which I'ma play it safe and say there's no way THAT would happen..
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I agree with you, just wanna point out that MC would standout even more because he isn't 3rd Party. He's 1st Party Microsoft, so if he or Banjo or Steve make it in they'd set a new paradigm, and Smash would once again shatter our understanding of roster choices. Either of them would be the first of a new trend and open up yet another door we didn't know was there, which would be ****ING AMAZING!!! After that the most mindblowing thing they could pull off would be a 1st Party Sony character...which I'ma play it safe and say there's no way THAT would happen..
Well, when it comes to 3rd parties, Sakurai doesn't really care about the "Nintendo" part all that much. He notes it, but really, it does nothing other than make a character easier to license for a Nintendo appearance again. For an obscure 3rd party, being on Nintendo could somewhat help(possibly why Geno has been given way more consideration than you'd think, and not just because of known popularity before the ballot was ever created) too.

That said, I wouldn't say this opens up anything. We already knew that "the character being important to Nintendo" was a dead argument when Cloud exists. He is clearly not meant to be a tie to the Nintendo part of Final Fantasy. He's literally the representation of the split itself. That's what his game is. Coupled with the fact his entire character is based upon FFVII(and its own spin-offs) specifically, and you realize that just cause his games had a history with Nintendo, doesn't mean it really ever meant anything. FF being a huge franchise in gaming was the more key point that Sakurai cared about. It's an iconic franchise. If it didn't start on Nintendo and was still iconic, it still would've been something he'd want a character for. The biggest thing is that he talks about Cloud's small Nintendo cameos as if they weren't a big factor. He might've hesitated, but that's nothing more than a maybe. Whereas he considered him being the most popular FF character a key point in choosing him. Even Square-Enix were surprised and thought he'd go with a Nintendo-related option. Guess what he didn't go with?

Basically, for 3rd parties, he's going for gaming history first. Exceptions to this can apply, and so far those exceptions also have had more significant Nintendo appearances than Cloud too, who was clearly a gaming history specific choice. So if he chooses Master Chief? Nothing changes because we already knew that a character with gaming history was viable. Now, there is fair reason to believe Microsoft might say no, or Nintendo would, due to it being an IP that's in direct competition and all. That would make sense.
 

Xevious 1

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I agree with you, just wanna point out that MC would standout even more because he isn't 3rd Party. He's 1st Party Microsoft, so if he or Banjo or Steve make it in they'd set a new paradigm, and Smash would once again shatter our understanding of roster choices. Either of them would be the first of a new trend and open up yet another door we didn't know was there, which would be ****ING AMAZING!!! After that the most mindblowing thing they could pull off would be a 1st Party Sony character...which I'ma play it safe and say there's no way THAT would happen..
It isn't like Nintendo would need to get a Sony first party character as the most notable Playstation characters are not even owned by them. The fact that Snake and Cloud (who arguably built their brand) are in Smash Bros and not Playstation All Stars is hilarious.
 

BirthNote

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Well, when it comes to 3rd parties, Sakurai doesn't really care about the "Nintendo" part all that much. He notes it, but really, it does nothing other than make a character easier to license for a Nintendo appearance again. For an obscure 3rd party, being on Nintendo could somewhat help(possibly why Geno has been given way more consideration than you'd think, and not just because of known popularity before the ballot was ever created) too.
True, but I'm talking about 1st Party competitors in this post, so I'm not sure why this info is necessary here.

That said, I wouldn't say this opens up anything. We already knew that "the character being important to Nintendo" was a dead argument when Cloud exists. He is clearly not meant to be a tie to the Nintendo part of Final Fantasy. He's literally the representation of the split itself. That's what his game is. Coupled with the fact his entire character is based upon FFVII(and its own spin-offs) specifically, and you realize that just cause his games had a history with Nintendo, doesn't mean it really ever meant anything. FF being a huge franchise in gaming was the more key point that Sakurai cared about. It's an iconic franchise. If it didn't start on Nintendo and was still iconic, it still would've been something he'd want a character for. The biggest thing is that he talks about Cloud's small Nintendo cameos as if they weren't a big factor. He might've hesitated, but that's nothing more than a maybe. Whereas he considered him being the most popular FF character a key point in choosing him. Even Square-Enix were surprised and thought he'd go with a Nintendo-related option. Guess what he didn't go with?
This is where I disagree; something would change, because as of right now, all the non-Nintendo guests are from 3rd Party companies, ie characters that aren't locked to a competitor's system and owned by that competitor. Chief, Banjo, and Steve are not in the 3rd Party category, they're in a 1st Party category, and including them as guests would be a first for Smash history. As monumental as the current guests are they're in a separate boat from the 3 I mentioned, and if either one of them make it we will in fact have a new door of possibilities. Not only will we have virtually any 3rd Party be possible, we could also speculate with any Microsoft IP, which is not a 3rd Party.

Basically, for 3rd parties, he's going for gaming history first. Exceptions to this can apply, and so far those exceptions also have had more significant Nintendo appearances than Cloud too, who was clearly a gaming history specific choice. So if he chooses Master Chief? Nothing changes because we already knew that a character with gaming history was viable. Now, there is fair reason to believe Microsoft might say no, or Nintendo would, due to it being an IP that's in direct competition and all. That would make sense.
That's great for 3rd Parties, but from the gist of your post you seem to be thinking that Master Chief is 3rd Party. He's not, he's 1st Party Microsoft. That in and of itself would mean massive things if he, Banjo or Steve or even Ori makes it in. It shows that Smash's influence and reach is so, SO massive that even direct competitors are fair game for speculation, which is amazing. I already know Chief's history and Sakurai's opinion on guests. What I've been conveying this whole time is that Chief getting in here is more phenomenal than some realize.

It isn't like Nintendo would need to get a Sony first party character as the most notable Playstation characters are not even owned by them. The fact that Snake and Cloud (who arguably built their brand) are in Smash Bros and not Playstation All Stars is hilarious.
Agreed with the 2nd sentence, 1st one not entirely. We'd have to consider Ratchet, Kratos and Drake before we dismiss Sony. The 1st two have done amazingly well for series that have been around for 16 and 13 years respectively, and even with a garbage movie, Ratchet's standing the test of time. Kratos's current status speaks for itself, and Uncharted brought Sony to new heights that can't be ignored.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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True, but I'm talking about 1st Party competitors in this post, so I'm not sure why this info is necessary here.
It's going to confuse people because this is a Smash forum. Not a Microsoft forum. Master Chief is just a regular 3rd party like everybody else.

This is where I disagree; something would change, because as of right now, all the non-Nintendo guests are from 3rd Party companies, ie characters that aren't locked to a competitor's system and owned by that competitor. Chief, Banjo, and Steve are not in the 3rd Party category, they're in a 1st Party category, and including them as guests would be a first for Smash history. As monumental as the current guests are they're in a separate boat from the 3 I mentioned, and if either one of them make it we will in fact have a new door of possibilities. Not only will we have virtually any 3rd Party be possible, we could also speculate with any Microsoft IP, which is not a 3rd Party.
They're still 3rd parties regardless. They are not in a "1st party category" where it matters. It's that simple. For Sakurai, you're either owned by Nintendo or you're not. That's all licensing comes too. There is no doors opened up because it was opened up the second Snake came in. It's the same door. Just 3rd parties that may be somewhat harder to get. They're no harder to get than a more obscure 3rd party at best, since they're unlikely to be looked at.

That's great for 3rd Parties, but from the gist of your post you seem to be thinking that Master Chief is 3rd Party. He's not, he's 1st Party Microsoft. That in and of itself would mean massive things if he, Banjo or Steve or even Ori makes it in. It shows that Smash's influence and reach is so, SO massive that even direct competitors are fair game for speculation, which is amazing. I already know Chief's history and Sakurai's opinion on guests. What I've been conveying this whole time is that Chief getting in here is more phenomenal than some realize.
Let's see, he wants a 3rd party with gaming history(generally, he makes exceptions like Bayonetta). Master Chief is not owned by Nintendo and has gaming history. Sounds like 3rd party completely to me. Again, no doors are opened because it's purely 3rd party for the purpose of what Sakurai needs. There is a fair reason to believe it may be slightly harder to get because it's an active IP in competition, but that's literally the same thing as any 3rd party who is currently an exclusive on a system and not "1st party to a specific console". Which is, not really an inherent issue by itself. Also, Steve? now is a faceplate for a Minecraft 3DS version you can buy. It's not as big of a deal entirely as you think it is. Nintendo and Microsoft gladly are working together. Them having a character in Smash doesn't sound hard to believe when they put crossplay into Minecraft, something Sony won't do. They're bigger issues than Microsoft ever was.

Besides that, Banjo isn't even remotely on the same level as the other two and is wayyyyyyyy overrated. You're better off listing a Battletoad with them, or even Fulgore/Jago, as those games actually having gaming history that actually influenced games to come. Banjo has popularity solely due to having two awesome games on the N64, which while fine, makes him rather obscure and having a very tiny chance. Though not lacking a chance at all, but he's unlikely to happen unless Sakurai explicitly wants an inactive character. As we've seen with Geno, he is willing to do that.

Agreed with the 2nd sentence, 1st one not entirely. We'd have to consider Ratchet, Kratos and Drake before we dismiss Sony. The 1st two have done amazingly well for series that have been around for 16 and 13 years respectively, and even with a garbage movie, Ratchet's standing the test of time. Kratos's current status speaks for itself, and Uncharted brought Sony to new heights that can't be ignored.
Sure. We should never dismiss other 3rd party options like them anyway. The only 3rd parties that have a low chance are obscure ones as is, but it appears being obscure isn't an issue if you've heavily been on Nintendo for your main appearances(I.E. Geno, Bayonetta). Which makes them an exception to the "gaming history" rule.
 

Xevious 1

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Besides that, Banjo isn't even remotely on the same level as the other two and is wayyyyyyyy overrated. You're better off listing a Battletoad with them, or even Fulgore/Jago, as those games actually having gaming history that actually influenced games to come. Banjo has popularity solely due to having two awesome games on the N64, which while fine, makes him rather obscure and having a very tiny chance. Though not lacking a chance at all, but he's unlikely to happen unless Sakurai explicitly wants an inactive character. As we've seen with Geno, he is willing to do that.
Banjo and Kazooie are Rareware's most popular non-DK characters and used to be owned by Nintendo at one point. Rare is heavily associated with N64 era and Banjo was considered for Melee. Banjo and Kazooie was probably in the top 10 on the smash ballot, and the head of Xbox said he was fine with Nintendo using Banjo and Kazooie in Smash Bros twice. That statement and Banjo's popularity is the whole reason why people are beginning to see Chief as a possibility. Cause we know Microsoft is okay with using at least one of their characters and if Sakurai is going to Banjo, he is probably going to pull for Xbox's mascot as well.

Also I am going to have to disagree on Banjo Kazooie not being influential, it definitely was in the genre of 3D platformers. And he isn't obscure, Banjo Kazooie sold 3.6 million copies and Tooie 1.5 million.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Banjo and Kazooie are Rareware's most popular non-DK characters and used to be owned by Nintendo at one point. Rare is heavily associated with N64 era and Banjo was considered for Melee. Banjo and Kazooie was probably in the top 10 on the smash ballot, and the head of Xbox said he was fine with Nintendo using Banjo and Kazooie in Smash Bros twice. That statement and Banjo's popularity is the whole reason why people are beginning to see Chief as a possibility. Cause we know Microsoft is okay with using at least one of their characters and if Sakurai is going to Banjo, he is probably going to pull for Xbox's mascot as well.

Also I am going to have to disagree on Banjo Kazooie not being influential, it definitely was in the genre of 3D platformers. And he isn't obscure, Banjo Kazooie sold 3.6 million copies and Tooie 1.5 million.
It hasn't been influential for games to come at all. And yes, he's definitely obscure. He's not nearly as well known as people are making him. Sales has nothing to do with being influential. Games were not created due to a formula the series created. The n64 era is not "gaming as a whole". There's no around this fact. In fact, the only reason Banjo got a costume in Minecraft is to appease the n64 fans. To the point even Microsoft outright admitted it.

When being influential, it means many games are based upon the formula. B&K did one thing, and that's be better than Donkey Kong 64. But it's still Mario 64 that influenced the collect-a-thons in the 3D era. DK64 and the B&K games didn't really help influence later ones.

Being influential means actual games reusing the formula/pieces the game created. Super Mario 64 is the first 3D collect-a-thon game. There's a reason we got similar platformers later on, and it has nothing to do with B&K or DK64. It was a SM64 factor.

Halo influenced later FPS games, namely capitalizing on how important story is for it. I'm trying to remember exactly how Battletoads influenced beat 'em ups myself. It's hard to remember. They themselves are highly iconic, it's just how they added to gaming history is kind of forgotten, not unlike Killer Instinct. Which not only defined combos, it defined announcer chatter and combo breakers. The second thing is defined is part of why Smash exists today, as it uses announcer chatter. It's a big thing to remember how important it is.

So what exactly did B&K actually influence? They're absolutely memorable... to n64 fans, but what games reused its formula and became better? Because so far, it was the Super Mario 64 formula they actually worked with. Which actually had gaming influence, after all. And this is from someone who likes the games, I just recognize that they are legit obscure(but it's no more obscure than Super Mario RPG at this point anyway. SMRPG wasn't very obscure, it just was not well known for a Mario game itself. B&K are in the same area, has a good amount of fans, but there's way too many people who haven't known about the series to remotely call it iconic. Being inactive hurts it too, as bar being say, a retro pick or Sakurai picking a character he considered in the past, they really have nothing going for them when it comes to choosing a Microsoft option. With more active and influential IP's, B&K would only really be chosen to appeal to the n64 fans, not for gaming as a whole. And there's nothing wrong with appealing to a single era of fans either, mind you. But that's its only serious chance).
 

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It's going to confuse people because this is a Smash forum. Not a Microsoft forum. Master Chief is just a regular 3rd party like everybody else..
Confuse? Are you saying that because we're on a Nintendo game-oriented site, that most people can't understand anything non-Nintendo? This is a website full of people with critical thinking skills, not a place where we have next to no idea how video game IPs work. Master Chief is not 3rd Party and you shouldn't brush off that distinction, and I'm not gonna dumb down a simple thing to understand.

They're still 3rd parties regardless. They are not in a "1st party category" where it matters. It's that simple. For Sakurai, you're either owned by Nintendo or you're not. That's all licensing comes too. There is no doors opened up because it was opened up the second Snake came in. It's the same door. Just 3rd parties that may be somewhat harder to get. They're no harder to get than a more obscure 3rd party at best, since they're unlikely to be looked at.
They're not "3rd parties regardless". A 3rd Party is a franchise owned by a company that doesn't manufacture consoles. You have to realize and acknowledge that Master Chief, as a flagship franchise wholly owned by Microsoft --which makes consoles--is by the simplest definition a 1st Party character. To write the nuance off as legal mumbo jumbo is misinformative and does you no favors in the long run.

Further, it's not the same door. You're throwing nuance out the window to justify Chief when any Microsoft-owned, AKA rival 1st Party IP would be a game changer that Sakurai would readily point out. You argue in favor of him--with someone who also supports him--by dismissing a crucial fact of his inclusion. Comedy.

Let's see, he wants a 3rd party with gaming history(generally, he makes exceptions like Bayonetta). Master Chief is not owned by Nintendo and has gaming history. Sounds like 3rd party completely to me. Again, no doors are opened because it's purely 3rd party for the purpose of what Sakurai needs. There is a fair reason to believe it may be slightly harder to get because it's an active IP in competition, but that's literally the same thing as any 3rd party who is currently an exclusive on a system and not "1st party to a specific console". Which is, not really an inherent issue by itself. Also, Steve? now is a faceplate for a Minecraft 3DS version you can buy. It's not as big of a deal entirely as you think it is. Nintendo and Microsoft gladly are working together. Them having a character in Smash doesn't sound hard to believe when they put crossplay into Minecraft, something Sony won't do. They're bigger issues than Microsoft ever was.
Do you realize I'm supporting MC and would like to have him in? Do you realize the logic of 'If it's not Nintendo it's clearly 3rd Party!' is flawed because it's too simple to work?

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're familiar with Console Wars. Microsoft and Nintendo, two direct 1st Party competitors collaborating on anything is a massive development, even for things as simple as in-game cosmetics. So you're telling me, that including something in Smash for the first time in it's history opens no doors and is not as important as it seems. Again, Com-Ed-Y.

Besides that, Banjo isn't even remotely on the same level as the other two and is wayyyyyyyy overrated. You're better off listing a Battletoad with them, or even Fulgore/Jago, as those games actually having gaming history that actually influenced games to come. Banjo has popularity solely due to having two awesome games on the N64, which while fine, makes him rather obscure and having a very tiny chance. Though not lacking a chance at all, but he's unlikely to happen unless Sakurai explicitly wants an inactive character. As we've seen with Geno, he is willing to do that.
So we're acknowledging nuance here but when it comes to 1st or 3rd Party it's either this or that? Come on.

I didn't bring up Banjo for likelihood or starpower. I mentioned him, Steve and even Ori to prove a point that by definition of being a 1st Party competitor on a rival system, them setting foot in Smash would set a new benchmark in Smash history whether they're icons or not.

Any Microsoft character, whether it's an OG like Rash or a new face like Ori would definitely be a new direction for Smash. Tell me exactly how many IPs of direct competitors are currently in SSB if you're gonna assert that Master Chief won't open any doors.

Sure. We should never dismiss other 3rd party options like them anyway. The only 3rd parties that have a low chance are obscure ones as is, but it appears being obscure isn't an issue if you've heavily been on Nintendo for your main appearances(I.E. Geno, Bayonetta). Which makes them an exception to the "gaming history" rule.
You're right, we should never dismiss 3rd Party characters nor should we dismiss indies. We should also learn, acknowledge and understand what makes a character 1st Party when discussing guest fighters that are, well...1st Party if we wanna be taken seriously.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Confuse? Are you saying that because we're on a Nintendo game-oriented site, that most people can't understand anything non-Nintendo? This is a website full of people with critical thinking skills, not a place where we have next to no idea how video game IPs work. Master Chief is not 3rd Party and you shouldn't brush off that distinction, and I'm not gonna dumb down a simple thing to understand.


They're not "3rd parties regardless". A 3rd Party is a franchise owned by a company that doesn't manufacture consoles. You have to realize and acknowledge that Master Chief, as a flagship franchise wholly owned by Microsoft --which makes consoles--is by the simplest definition a 1st Party character. To write the nuance off as legal mumbo jumbo is misinformative and does you no favors in the long run.
Calling a 3rd party a 3rd party is literally exactly what it is.

Further, it's not the same door. You're throwing nuance out the window to justify Chief when any Microsoft-owned, AKA rival 1st Party IP would be a game changer that Sakurai would readily point out. You argue in favor of him--with someone who also supports him--by dismissing a crucial fact of his inclusion. Comedy.
It's almost like this changes nothing of the fact it's still a regular 3rd party with gaming history. Nobody was ignoring it. It's just not some "new door" as you're making it either. Because it never was. Every 3rd party is not owned by Nintendo. Nothing changed since Cloud entered. We already knew having a Nintendo history wasn't actually a key factor anyway. Bayonetta is an exception to his guidelines, but he's otherwise only chosen 3rd parties with gaming history specifically. It's been the same thing since he said it. Master Chief would not change that.

Do you realize I'm supporting MC and would like to have him in? Do you realize the logic of 'If it's not Nintendo it's clearly 3rd Party!' is flawed because it's too simple to work?
When it comes to adding a character to Smash? Yeah, it doesn't really matter what company owns 'em if it's not Nintendo. Then it becomes 3rd party. There's no real major difference in the long run regardless. Microsoft being a direct competitor is of course a barrier. Never said otherwise. But it might not be a big barrier to overcome at this point either.

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're familiar with Console Wars. Microsoft and Nintendo, two direct 1st Party competitors collaborating on anything is a massive development, even for things as simple as in-game cosmetics. So you're telling me, that including something in Smash for the first time in it's history opens no doors and is not as important as it seems. Again, Com-Ed-Y.
Yep, and Sakurai doesn't care about Console Wars. That's why his 3rd party options aren't about Nintendo history to begin with(well, with one exception, and possibly one more. Bayonetta is an exception because gaming history has nothing to do with her being chosen, and Geno is so far the only potential other exception).

So we're acknowledging nuance here but when it comes to 1st or 3rd Party it's either this or that? Come on.
It's simple. This is a support thread for a character getting into Smash. That means the character is 3rd party if Nintendo doesn't own them. You're acting like this isn't still the case as is. And the point is Banjo isn't a good example of 3rd parties when it comes to majorly iconic ones, that's all. It's also a character in an odd situation and may get in due to the Nintendo history in itself, which is contrary to the point of "competitor". Banjo is a dead series. That means either the character getting in won't hurt Microsoft sales or they won't agree to add him in because it wouldn't really help them get sales. Steve? and Master Chief are in a more unique position where they're an active franchise. Master Chief is a bit different, due to still being a console exclusive. Steve? on the other hand is not, making him easy to negotiate for. Well, easier, to say the least.

I didn't bring up Banjo for likelihood or starpower. I mentioned him, Steve and even Ori to prove a point that by definition of being a 1st Party competitor on a rival system, them setting foot in Smash would set a new benchmark in Smash history whether they're icons or not.
Well, they wouldn't get in if they ain't icons if they're a 3rd party anyway, unless there's a unique reason(ballot, unique circumstances like good timing or already dealing with the company). So it kind of doesn't really matter whether they get in or not.

Any Microsoft character, whether it's an OG like Rash or a new face like Ori would definitely be a new direction for Smash. Tell me exactly how many IPs of direct competitors are currently in SSB if you're gonna assert that Master Chief won't open any doors.
You're still oversaying how important this is. It doesn't matter. It's a fan perception, but has nothing to do with how the series actually works. Again, remember how Sakurai views it; he doesn't see the console bit as important. All he cares about is "having the best character game in the world". Nothing changes that. That's why it doesn't open any doors, because it was opened once Snake showed up and nothing ever changed at all. Besides the fact he's more open to other 3rd parties by default. We already knew having a Nintendo history was unimportant, people just didn't believe it. Cloud only showed that... yeah.

You're right, we should never dismiss 3rd Party characters nor should we dismiss indies. We should also learn, acknowledge and understand what makes a character 1st Party when discussing guest fighters that are, well...1st Party if we wanna be taken seriously.
You're really just ignoring the fact that Sakurai doesn't care if they're a competitor or not. He's made that absolutely clear before, explaining why he chooses 3rd parties and Cloud, who is pretty much considered a Sony-related character. Nobody is saying that getting a Microsoft character is literally easier than a character that isn't from a competitor. However, to pretend it's really a major change in what we know is ignoring what is the reality to begin with. It opens up the doors solely to fans who don't understand what it really means to choosing 3rd parties, anyway. This is just pointless fan-rules again.
 

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Calling a 3rd party a 3rd party is literally exactly what it is.
Until you can acknowledge what a 3rd Party is and the difference between what makes a character 3rd or 1st, this sentence holds no weight.

It's almost like this changes nothing of the fact it's still a regular 3rd party with gaming history. Nobody was ignoring it. It's just not some "new door" as you're making it either. Because it never was. Every 3rd party is not owned by Nintendo. Nothing changed since Cloud entered. We already knew having a Nintendo history wasn't actually a key factor anyway. Bayonetta is an exception to his guidelines, but he's otherwise only chosen 3rd parties with gaming history specifically. It's been the same thing since he said it. Master Chief would not change that.
Again, you're mistaken. You hinge your argument on insisting that 'If it's not Nintendo it's clearly 3rd Party' and the conclusions you draw from it fall apart. If you won't accept that a 1st Party character is one that's owned by a console manufacturer, which Master Chief is and Cloud is not, your replies will be toppled by anyone willing to hand out facts. You say it changes nothing having the Chief in, right? Then why haven't you named any direct competitors who are already in Smash? Name those names.


When it comes to adding a character to Smash? Yeah, it doesn't really matter what company owns 'em if it's not Nintendo. Then it becomes 3rd party. There's no real major difference in the long run regardless. Microsoft being a direct competitor is of course a barrier. Never said otherwise. But it might not be a big barrier to overcome at this point either.
Except there is a difference. One is a potential guest from a company that makes consoles--which is called 1st Party--and the rest are guests from companies that do not or no longer can make consoles--which is called 3rd Party. The difference is simple to grasp.

Yep, and Sakurai doesn't care about Console Wars. That's why his 3rd party options aren't about Nintendo history to begin with(well, with one exception, and possibly one more. Bayonetta is an exception because gaming history has nothing to do with her being chosen, and Geno is so far the only potential other exception).
Oh, so you do know. That's a relief; you refusing to acknowledge the simple difference between 1st and 3rd Party IPs had me worried.

In case it's not clear, a 1st Party franchise is owned by a console manufacturer, a 3rd Party franchise is owned by a company that doesn't make consoles. There are 3 console manufacturers: Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft; they compete with eachother and also own franchises such as Super Mario (Nintendo), Uncharted (Sony) and Halo (Microsoft). One has a crossover game that includes franchises they don't own as Guests, and of those Guests, none of them are owned by a console manufacturer. Franchises with that distinction are known as 3rd Parties. Everyone from Snake to Cloud is a 3rd Party. If a character such as Master Chief gets in, he won't be labeled a 3rd Party, because he comes from a console manufacturer's IP, making him a 1st Party competitor. Hopefully that's not confusing!

It's simple. This is a support thread for a character getting into Smash. That means the character is 3rd party if Nintendo doesn't own them. You're acting like this isn't still the case as is. And the point is Banjo isn't a good example of 3rd parties when it comes to majorly iconic ones, that's all. It's also a character in an odd situation and may get in due to the Nintendo history in itself, which is contrary to the point of "competitor". Banjo is a dead series. That means either the character getting in won't hurt Microsoft sales or they won't agree to add him in because it wouldn't really help them get sales. Steve? and Master Chief are in a more unique position where they're an active franchise. Master Chief is a bit different, due to still being a console exclusive. Steve? on the other hand is not, making him easy to negotiate for. Well, easier, to say the least.
Here's something simpler: we're on a character support thread, discussing the ins and outs of characters at length. We're combing through every nuance, but one user insists that we throw nuance off a cliff for this one specific instance. Why? Because it's 'too confusing' for the users of this site. The users who fact-check one another and constantly read/type mountains of text for the sake of accurate discussion.

And since we're on Banjo again I'll answer a question you had for Xevious. You wanna know what games were influenced by the B-K series? Mario Sunshine, Jak & Daxter (4/5 games), Ratchet & Clank (8/12 games and counting), and not in the collect-a-thon sense either. Each of those games feature a 2-in-1 character with a symbiotic moveset that covers one where the other falls short. His series is no doubt dead and so is Jak's; with Mario back to doing his own thing, the only one left with his influence is Ratchet, which thanks to the PS4 game is still going strong.

Well, they wouldn't get in if they ain't icons if they're a 3rd party anyway, unless there's a unique reason(ballot, unique circumstances like good timing or already dealing with the company). So it kind of doesn't really matter whether they get in or not.
Whew, well it's a good thing they're not 3rd Party and in reality 1st Party, amirite? Yknow, since they're owned by a rival console manufacturer.

You're still oversaying how important this is. It doesn't matter. It's a fan perception, but has nothing to do with how the series actually works. Again, remember how Sakurai views it; he doesn't see the console bit as important. All he cares about is "having the best character game in the world". Nothing changes that. That's why it doesn't open any doors, because it was opened once Snake showed up and nothing ever changed at all. Besides the fact he's more open to other 3rd parties by default. We already knew having a Nintendo history was unimportant, people just didn't believe it. Cloud only showed that... yeah.
The reality of game development IPs isn't fan perception LOL. We know that Sakurai wants to put the most iconic characters in one game, and when we got Pac-Man he made sure to point out that he's tied with G&W for oldest IP. He made sure we knew that Cloud was the most popular Square Enix character. You think he won't make it a point to highlight that Chief would be the first of his kind, aka the 1st Guest from a competitor's IP? You are understating how important this is.

You're really just ignoring the fact that Sakurai doesn't care if they're a competitor or not. He's made that absolutely clear before, explaining why he chooses 3rd parties and Cloud, who is pretty much considered a Sony-related character. Nobody is saying that getting a Microsoft character is literally easier than a character that isn't from a competitor. However, to pretend it's really a major change in what we know is ignoring what is the reality to begin with. It opens up the doors solely to fans who don't understand what it really means to choosing 3rd parties, anyway. This is just pointless fan-rules again.
You're happily pretending to not know what a 1st Party character is, building an argument on that flawed logic because 'it's too confusing' to accept the reality. You're downplaying the fact that if even one Microsoft character makes it in, we'll be free to speculate on all Microsoft characters in addition to 3rd Party characters. Even without Chief's starpower that in and of itself is outstanding, cuz all it leaves out at that point is Sony's 1st Party IPs for speculation. To pretend Master Chief is 3rd Party and trying to have a discussion with game enthusiasts is pointless oversimplification.

The user who roots their entire responses in willful ignorance to what 1st Parties are, is telling me I'm ignoring something. You really know how to make a guy laugh, huh?
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Fun fact; Sakurai already would've added 3rd parties in Melee(Sonic and Snake were both talked about) but the game was too far in development. This means the whole "Nintendo-only" wasn't even a thing he cared about in the first place. It was just an important way to sell the first game of the series.

This is why no doors were ever opened anyway(besides to fan perception/fan rules). Because they were never legit closed. In the end, adding someone from Microsoft changes actually nothing because it could've happened at really any time, as long as actual correct criteria was met and the companies said "yes". Regardless, there's a lot of fun 3rd party options from Microsoft and Sony that could be considered. Chief and Steve? are at the top of the charts as well, and that's no surprise. They have a large gaming history. A Battletoad is more questionable, but it's also been kind of dead, despite its gaming legacy. Killer Instinct has the point in its favor of being currently active while having a gaming legacy. And then we have B&K who would more appeal to a niche audience, which is something Sakurai actually would be okay with. As shown by Geno, who is still niche. I'd probably throw Battletoads out of the running at this time, but the rest are worth considering since the circumstances fit(it's more that Banjo is overrated when it comes to iconicness, not that he doesn't have a chance, as he does). To be honest, I feel Steve? is at the top now, with Chief right behind. I'd probably put B&K in 3rd place, and Fulgore/Jago(depending who is easier to promote/make a moveset out of) right in 4th, with a Battletoad in 5th.
 

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Yes, 3rd Parties. Characters who were owned by companies that don't manufacture consoles, and in Sonic's case, announced that they're now 3rd Party 10 months before SSBM was released in Japan. Announced officially after Sega said in 1999 (a year after the Dreamcast hit shelves) that they would be 3rd Party in the coming years. Your fun fact sadly doesn't counter what I've been saying this whole time about new doors, and you still haven't named any direct competitors who are already in Smash, because there are none. Chief would be the first if he makes it in, as unlike all our current guests, he's owned by a console manufacturer, thus making him a 1st Party IP, which the others are not. A 1st Party competitor getting in Smash when it's been unprecedented does in fact open new doors, because then we'll be free to speculate on direct competitors--who are 1st Party because they're owned by a rival console manufacturer --in addition to 3rd Parties.

And yes, there are tons of fun direct competitors to speculate on in addition to 3rd Parties. Looks like we're on the same page with your rundown of the Microsoft options.
 

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you can see skoopa made a moveset for him, he seems to slowly be getting more and more attention, i'll keep pushing for him on fb
 
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ZealousGamer

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While I like the effort; I disagree with the moveset. I really don't like a lot of what was chosen. For example; I really don't want Master Chief's basic attacks to be ranged. He is a soldier and they should mostly be hand to hand attacks (punching and kicking). Thruster charge is fine. The Assault Rifle should just be a special along with the Spartan Laser. I really don't like the Grenade Jump to be his recovery. It should be either the Jetpack or Portable Gravity Lift. His grabs can use the Sword or be based on Assassination animations. His Final Smash can be the Warthog but, it shouldn't be there to run over enemies. It's too much like Captain Falcon's Final Smash but with a Warthog. Have Master Chief jump on the turret and have it be a Gauss Hog or better yet have it be the Scorpion Tank.

Outside of those 2 for his Final Smash; Master Chief could call in Johnson in the Scarab from Halo 2.
 

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It hasn't been influential for games to come at all. And yes, he's definitely obscure. He's not nearly as well known as people are making him. Sales has nothing to do with being influential. Games were not created due to a formula the series created. The n64 era is not "gaming as a whole". There's no around this fact. In fact, the only reason Banjo got a costume in Minecraft is to appease the n64 fans. To the point even Microsoft outright admitted it.

When being influential, it means many games are based upon the formula. B&K did one thing, and that's be better than Donkey Kong 64. But it's still Mario 64 that influenced the collect-a-thons in the 3D era. DK64 and the B&K games didn't really help influence later ones.

Being influential means actual games reusing the formula/pieces the game created. Super Mario 64 is the first 3D collect-a-thon game. There's a reason we got similar platformers later on, and it has nothing to do with B&K or DK64. It was a SM64 factor.

Halo influenced later FPS games, namely capitalizing on how important story is for it. I'm trying to remember exactly how Battletoads influenced beat 'em ups myself. It's hard to remember. They themselves are highly iconic, it's just how they added to gaming history is kind of forgotten, not unlike Killer Instinct. Which not only defined combos, it defined announcer chatter and combo breakers. The second thing is defined is part of why Smash exists today, as it uses announcer chatter. It's a big thing to remember how important it is.

So what exactly did B&K actually influence? They're absolutely memorable... to n64 fans, but what games reused its formula and became better? Because so far, it was the Super Mario 64 formula they actually worked with. Which actually had gaming influence, after all. And this is from someone who likes the games, I just recognize that they are legit obscure(but it's no more obscure than Super Mario RPG at this point anyway. SMRPG wasn't very obscure, it just was not well known for a Mario game itself. B&K are in the same area, has a good amount of fans, but there's way too many people who haven't known about the series to remotely call it iconic. Being inactive hurts it too, as bar being say, a retro pick or Sakurai picking a character he considered in the past, they really have nothing going for them when it comes to choosing a Microsoft option. With more active and influential IP's, B&K would only really be chosen to appeal to the n64 fans, not for gaming as a whole. And there's nothing wrong with appealing to a single era of fans either, mind you. But that's its only serious chance).
I’m sorry if any game is the face of beat em ups it should be Kung-Fu Master, Renegade or Double Dragon

And remember kids James Bond was a thought for a character in the first one a book character. I doubt that no movie and anime characters is actually a rule
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I’m sorry if any game is the face of beat em ups it should be Kung-Fu Master, Renegade or Double Dragon

And remember kids James Bond was a thought for a character in the first one a book character. I doubt that no movie and anime characters is actually a rule
Sakurai has been quite adamant that characters should be from video games first(3rd party specifically too). It's a rule he created. As Smash is clearly his vision. He pretty much chooses the characters/okays them. No character is outright forced onto him as long as he's the director. It's a respect thing. Some characters don't get in because he's not interested. It's actually pretty rare for an IP owner to even suggest a character alone(Pokemon barely did it... once). Though they do prepare concept arts/artwork for Sakurai to look at, as he likes to update things to later games to "go with the times". Regardless, he's made it clear that they should be a game character first. Beforehand, we were under the impression that it was "just no manga/anime characters", but he doubled down to make it clear "being from a game first is important"(again, only in context of 3rd parties. But he has yet to make a real exception otherwise, as they still are heavily tied to games/made for games anyway. R.O.B. and Lucario did technically debut before a game, but they're still game-based regardless). It's part of why the actual Ballot was told to us as game-only(though it was communicated poorly). As for James Bond, do remember that there were 3 issues alone; using the real likeness of an actor, 3rd party licensing, not originating from a game. This made him difficult to acquire. Just cause he considers a character/looks at them doesn't mean they actually stand a chance. It's not that simple. He was from a severely popular/iconic game(one of the most iconic Goldeneye games of all time). He still knew that it wouldn't work out(and that's ignoring realistic guns and such that could bump up the rating. Of course, this is less of an issue come Brawl).

Nobody said "the face of beat 'em ups". That's nowhere near the same thing as actually influencing beat 'em ups to become better. Face is most recognized, not necessarily most influential. That said, I could be remembering Battletoads wrong and that's fair. Though it is true that the face and most influential can easily be the same(Super Mario 64 for both platforming and collectathons).
 

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you can see skoopa made a moveset for him, he seems to slowly be getting more and more attention, i'll keep pushing for him on fb
My gripes with this set is that it needs more work. It comes across as a mix and match between a bunch of characters in the game making it feel unoriginal, and the over-reliance on UNSC guns could cause a problem aesthetically, not for Chief but when used on other characters like the children (Ness, etc) or the "cute" characters.

I would personally have a mix between Forerunner, Covenant and UNSC weapons to show the Chief can master any tool, where UNSC covers the explosive guns to avoid the aesthetic problem I mentioned, Covenant for rapid fire weapons and Forerunner for close/long range weapons. Obviously there'd be exceptions like the energy sword and gravity hammer.

Also, they could do much more with the basic jab and tilts. You could look at any assassination animation for hand-to-hand material (along with that hated Chief v Locke cutscene) in both jabs, tilts and throws. He had the right idea with the Plasma Grenade back throw but everything else felt like that mix and match I mentioned so they need to go IMO. I'd honestly have that single hit melee attack for one Tilt, most likely Forward while the other two could be something else. Dash Attack's fine and that makes sense, and for Down Air, Spartan Charge should be fine. Yes Sonic, Sheik and ZS Samus have that too, but give him the ability to charge it at will, slap some Armor Frames on him and voila: he's got a groundpound like none other.

Then with Specials you can go in so many directions. I'd look at Halo 3 and 4 for some of them, since he uses unique gadgets in the former and armor abilities for the latter, and some weapons that are too OP or strategic to be a regular input. Final Smashes could be literally anything, I'm not attached to this idea, but maybe Chief lands the Covenant bomb that he returned in Halo 2's opening level. Just brainstorming here, wanna get an idea flowing.

I'm not an expert at movesets but I don't wanna see Chief with a "been there, done that" feel if they'd go through the trouble of making him playable.
 
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