I know about less landing lag, but having a manual L-Canceling mode would be sweet

Quillion

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#81
It all depends on how the "entry hill" presents itself. If it manifests itself as a difficulty spike, then it's not a good one. One of the key aspects of game design is to not lose the "flow" of a player's skill. A difficulty spike is created when a player has an insurmountable task given to them in a very short amount of time, and since it is a danger to flow, it causes players to want to quit your game. L-Cancelling manifests with this difficulty spike, as I've shown and explained, and thus it is a danger to flow and therefore should try to be fixed or removed. I already said why L-Cancelling can't be fixed without turning it into something it's not.

And I'm not sure where you get this whole "everyone is a competitive player" spiel from. How does that even work?
L-Canceling is nowhere near this idea of providing a "difficulty spike". It's just one button press every time you hit the ground in the middle of an attack. It's no pretzel motion, nor is it your slippery slope idea of tapping the control stick for every step in a dash.

There needs to be a balance between providing a means to practice and the means to execute certain moves without complex motions. This can be done by providing a large variety of options, yes. But even if tech doesn't provide "choice", that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. It helps encourage people to get better.

If the highest level of play is too high, people will get turned away.

And if everyone's already at the super high level to begin with... well I'll let Syndrome complete my statement:


If you want a challenge, just play a bottom tier.
I actually would if they provided tech that encourages getting better.

A lot of the time, low tiers aren't low tiers because they have the worst moves; it's because they have the least developmental potential for players.
 

Necro'lic

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#82
And how successful are those games? Not very much, honestly. This is coming from someone who loves Pokémon Tournament, practices it, and even played against some of the best players like Bolimar.

And to address what you said about Dragon Ball FighterZ, there are half circle inputs for aerial tags and combo extensions. Half Circle forward + assist for a super tag, Half Circle back for a level 3. There are also special vanish inputs for sparking that allow you to hold down the buttons briefly to vanish and not do an attack, which is easier said than done, and costs sparking.

Cross Tag feels awkward since all of the attacking buttons are a mixed mess, and I personally feel like it suffers from over simplification.

I don’t understand why everyone is so up in arms about a player beating another player because they are mechanically superior. Even if I puts are simplified players with amazing reaction time like Zero are gonna handle you regardless. He ****ed me up in Mario Tennis lol. Even if you see someone do something basic like SH Bair into pivot grab read on an opponent teching in its still going to be impressive because having the ability to be technically precise in that moment is still going to be difficult without L-Canceling, and arguably more difficult without it assuming the aerial doesn’t have low landing lag.

Like 6WX plays with Sonic and you see him auto cancel his SH Bairs, it looks easy, but it requires you to know when to do the aerial and the exact frame when to fast fall so you have auto cancel frames, which is arguably more difficult than lightly tapping L or R. I mean, it works, but what if you could just L-Cancel it? You would still have the benefit of auto canceling moves since having no Lag is better than having the massive landing lag of Sonic’s Bair, but you can still benefit from using it to pressure the opponent by cutting that Lag in half, even if it’s not enough for a true follow up.

Auto cancels reward you for playing a character

L-cancels reward you for playing the game.

I don’t know man, I’ve played a lot of games with a lot of what many reluctant gamers would call “unecessary tech”, but they’ve honestly been the most fun and rewarding. And while there is a limit to it, and you don’t want to go down the path of KOF and the like, having L-Cancel isn’t anything close to doing a Power Gaiser with Terry Boggard, or doing a Deadly Rave with Geese.

I welcome lower landing lag and l-cancels obviously. I don’t feel like there’s no reason why it can’t be the game, especially if it will help characters like Bowser, who will definitely not have low landing lag on most of his aerials.
Didn't think you'd be back lol. Thought you were done with this discussion. I honestly was for a while... it brings you back whether you want to or not lol. But I'm replying here because of a few points, and yes, I am going to quote pieces, because I only have a problem with a few things.

I don’t understand why everyone is so up in arms about a player beating another player because they are mechanically superior. Even if I puts are simplified players with amazing reaction time like Zero are gonna handle you regardless.
I haven't seen anyone saying they aren't fine with people beating them because of superior mechanics. That's not the reason people are against L-Cancels. It certainly isn't why I am, and I haven't seen this sentiment throughout this thread.

L-cancels reward you for playing the game.
Literally everything in a game other than just losing rewards you for playing the game. Landing an aerial at all is a reward for playing the game. I feel this line of reasoning goes nowhere. And as for autocancels, while I would rather they not be in the game, they are far easier to pull off than L-Cancelling in my experience, plus they aren't something you have to do literally every time you jump. Sometimes it's better to just land without the attack.

I don’t feel like there’s no reason why it can’t be the game, especially if it will help characters like Bowser, who will definitely not have low landing lag on most of his aerials.
If you do L-Cancelling for one, you have to do it for all, and at that point, the fast characters will be even faster and Bowser gets almost nowhere comparably. Why can't we just leave manipulating designed downsides of moves alone and figure out another less ridiculous path to more execution? I'm not sure why L-Cancelling is even supported above just manipulating or removing other natural downsides of moves, like startup lag, or shieldstun, or knockback growth other than the fact it's been done before. I'm still not sure why we are still banking on this removal of downsides rather than ANY other one other than "it was in another Smash game".

I guess this is to Quillion Quillion because I don't want to do two posts in a row.

L-Cancelling causes a difficulty spike because of a few reasons:

1: It is not told to the player so they won't know it exists until they see it or are told about it (easily solved).

2: It is not an option or choice, and therefore must be performed regardless of situation or character (not easily solved).

3: Because its merit is based only on execution, and it's hard to execute consistently, all players who wish to be competitive are required to meticulously practice these timings of button presses for literally zero strategic benefit.

I'm really not sure why you would want to harm the strategic depth and integrity of the game at lower-competitive and developer levels just to make high-level competitors better when they were already going to be good in the first place.

Also, a much higher majority of players don't find repetitively practicing something for no strategic gain whatsoever a bright prospect. THey practice it because they HAVE to, or else they are objectively worse than their equally strategically skilled competition. You are not encouraging practice, you are forcing it. This is why people hate top tier characters, because there is a sense that they HAVE to play them. This is untrue, sure, but with L-Cancelling, it is there fears made flesh, because it actually is an obligation, and forcing it on the player doesn't encourage them, it gets them annoyed. You might be different, but you are a small minority.

And if everyone's already at the super high level to begin with...
This still makes no sense. How would you make everyone super high level to begin with? It's an impossibility. Who is saying this? How would this happen?

A lot of the time, low tiers aren't low tiers because they have the worst moves; it's because they have the least developmental potential for players.
This is hilariously false. Simple characters are at the higher echelons just as complicated characters are at the bottom. Correlating technical level of a character with their tier placement is fallacious because it is based on overall tournament results. No competitive game with classes/heroes/characters I seen has ever had their tier placement based on anything but tournament results.
 
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#83
Didn't think you'd be back lol. Thought you were done with this discussion. I honestly was for a while... it brings you back whether you want to or not lol. But I'm replying here because of a few points, and yes, I am going to quote pieces, because I only have a problem with a few things.



I haven't seen anyone saying they aren't fine with people beating them because of superior mechanics. That's not the reason people are against L-Cancels. It certainly isn't why I am, and I haven't seen this sentiment throughout this thread.



Literally everything in a game other than just losing rewards you for playing the game. Landing an aerial at all is a reward for playing the game. I feel this line of reasoning goes nowhere. And as for autocancels, while I would rather they not be in the game, they are far easier to pull off than L-Cancelling in my experience, plus they aren't something you have to do literally every time you jump. Sometimes it's better to just land without the attack.



If you do L-Cancelling for one, you have to do it for all, and at that point, the fast characters will be even faster and Bowser gets almost nowhere comparably. Why can't we just leave manipulating designed downsides of moves alone and figure out another less ridiculous path to more execution? I'm not sure why L-Cancelling is even supported above just manipulating or removing other natural downsides of moves, like startup lag, or shieldstun, or knockback growth other than the fact it's been done before. I'm still not sure why we are still banking on this removal of downsides rather than ANY other one other than "it was in another Smash game".
Yeah I kind of just got dragged back in lol. I should be using my time more wisely but it’s still interesting.

Yeah you do get rewarded for landing a hit, obviously. Naturally you gain better positioning, but most people want to be rewarded with a follow up hit, or a combo. Like in Street Fighter 5 when you land a crush counter, most people would like to capitalize off that hit to get as much damage as possible or freestyle into a combo. Getting a hit for it’s reward is sufficient, but it’s not always entertaining. If that’s the case then most games will just be like ARMS. No offense.

But yeah I do agree that there are things that should be adjusted in game to account for a move having low landing lag, like enhancing shield stun on certain moves, which would work very well with the way perfect shields function in the game, as well as giving the characters other advantages, but working a heavy weight in smash vs a traditional fighter always falls short because of the design of the games. Heavy weights have always been bad, or delegated as counter picks in smash because they can be out maneuvered and edge guarded easily. If characters had the ability to maintain ground on stage and zone with aerials properly they would definitely stand a chance I feel. In addition to system enhancements, L-canceling I feel would actually make these characters viable. Like if I can SHFFL Fair with Dedede and grab you and follow up I may be able to stand a chance against characters like Fox.

Also randomly I want Dedede’s Brawl D-tilt. Just feels so good.
 

Necro'lic

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#84
Yeah I kind of just got dragged back in lol. I should be using my time more wisely but it’s still interesting.

Yeah you do get rewarded for landing a hit, obviously. Naturally you gain better positioning, but most people want to be rewarded with a follow up hit, or a combo. Like in Street Fighter 5 when you land a crush counter, most people would like to capitalize off that hit to get as much damage as possible or freestyle into a combo. Getting a hit for it’s reward is sufficient, but it’s not always entertaining. If that’s the case then most games will just be like ARMS. No offense.

But yeah I do agree that there are things that should be adjusted in game to account for a move having low landing lag, like enhancing shield stun on certain moves, which would work very well with the way perfect shields function in the game, as well as giving the characters other advantages, but working a heavy weight in smash vs a traditional fighter always falls short because of the design of the games. Heavy weights have always been bad, or delegated as counter picks in smash because they can be out maneuvered and edge guarded easily. If characters had the ability to maintain ground on stage and zone with aerials properly they would definitely stand a chance I feel. In addition to system enhancements, L-canceling I feel would actually make these characters viable. Like if I can SHFFL Fair with Dedede and grab you and follow up I may be able to stand a chance against characters like Fox.

Also randomly I want Dedede’s Brawl D-tilt. Just feels so good.
Another ARMS blow... it hurts. :c

I know its spectator value is bad, but it's a really challenging game, trust me.

And yes. Just because Smash did it in the past doesn't mean it's good. There are definitely ways of having more punishment on low landing lag moves as well as not punishing high landing lag moves as much. And on your note of the heavies being bad: they aren't bad because there's no L-Cancelling, they're bad because they are poorly balanced, simple as that. You don't need to create a band aid fix on the arm of your patient that ends with them bleeding out later down the week just to say you "fixed" that arm.

And Dedede's current D-Tilt is perfect, fight me! :p
 

Quillion

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#85
Ugh... you know what, Necro'lic Necro'lic ? All we're doing is arguing in circles at this point.

I think adding an additional button press to get a result, even if there's "no reason to not do it", adds enjoyment value to the game. You think that the only way an additional input adds enjoyment value is if it "provides choice" or if there is "reason to not do it." I'm not changing my view, and you're not changing your view. And that's just fine; enjoyment value is entirely subjective.

I'm just agreeing to disagree now. I'm unwatching this thread because discussion has completely stagnated. Until next time...
 
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#86
Another ARMS blow... it hurts. :c

I know its spectator value is bad, but it's a really challenging game, trust me.

And yes. Just because Smash did it in the past doesn't mean it's good. There are definitely ways of having more punishment on low landing lag moves as well as not punishing high landing lag moves as much. And on your note of the heavies being bad: they aren't bad because there's no L-Cancelling, they're bad because they are poorly balanced, simple as that. You don't need to create a band aid fix on the arm of your patient that ends with them bleeding out later down the week just to say you "fixed" that arm.

And Dedede's current D-Tilt is perfect, fight me! :p
Lol but the sweep on d-tilt is so good. I guess I just like it for practicality since it’s a good spacing tool in Brawl, that and I like how it’s animated. Style vs Substance I guess.

I’m just glad that Wolf is getting a good Nair.
 

Necro'lic

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#87
Ugh... you know what, Necro'lic Necro'lic ? All we're doing is arguing in circles at this point.

I think adding an additional button press to get a result, even if there's "no reason to not do it", adds enjoyment value to the game. You think that the only way an additional input adds enjoyment value is if it "provides choice" or if there is "reason to not do it." I'm not changing my view, and you're not changing your view. And that's just fine; enjoyment value is entirely subjective.

I'm just agreeing to disagree now. I'm unwatching this thread because discussion has completely stagnated. Until next time...
Touche. I guess agree to disagree we must lol.

At least we can all agree that hitstun cancelling is stupid. :p
 

Red Ryu

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#89
L-Canceling is nowhere near this idea of providing a "difficulty spike". It's just one button press every time you hit the ground in the middle of an attack. It's no pretzel motion, nor is it your slippery slope idea of tapping the control stick for every step in a dash.

There needs to be a balance between providing a means to practice and the means to execute certain moves without complex motions. This can be done by providing a large variety of options, yes. But even if tech doesn't provide "choice", that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. It helps encourage people to get better.

If the highest level of play is too high, people will get turned away.

And if everyone's already at the super high level to begin with... well I'll let Syndrome complete my statement:




I actually would if they provided tech that encourages getting better.

A lot of the time, low tiers aren't low tiers because they have the worst moves; it's because they have the least developmental potential for players.
Umm, doing it consistently in a tournament adds a lot of track skill grinding you have to do in tournament. It’s not encouraging you to learn by playing the game at all you learn by sitting in training for what will likely be over a month, which you are expected to do while having a job/going to college. If it was grinding out a combo or a setup that’s fine and easy to do and learn. But that’s asking players to consistently hit a button over and over but it just making the game harder to make it harder and it’s not fun to grind out tech like this. Where as learning how to do a Yamcha combo on DBFZ is satisfying, rewarding and adds a lot to gameplay.

There is a good reason other games and newer smash title hate this mechanic. Because a mass amount of people hate it and find it to not add to gameplay.
 

DaDavid

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#90
I know you've stopped watching the thread now (which like, come on... why have a discussion about something?) but...

As others have pointed out, I feel like it's arbitrary. It's not testing how good you are at the game, just adding a step. I get that you're proposing it as an option, so, in theory nobody should have a problem with it, but, it's ultimately just a source of complication in my opinion. I don't see why anybody should have a conversation about this feature at a tournament for a game whose average tournaments already take longer than average for a fighting game.

Hyperbolic example for sure, but, what if you tripped every time you dashed UNLESS you tapped the stick twice? And not only that, but you actually tripped for longer if you attempted the double tap but didn't do it quickly enough? Does that add depth to the game? It forces you to engage with the controller more, sure, and it promotes precision, but does it actually test anybody's skill? Or does it just mean, like L-canceling, that everybody who chooses to play the game competitively will spend entire training sessions just making the quick double tap second nature?

I'm sure people could argue that it would in fact add depth to the game play, but, a huge percentage of fighting game fans are on board with the idea that the real competition should be in the decision making phases of the fight, not in the execution.
 

Flowen231

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#91
When will you people realize that these "entry hills" (they're not barriers because they can be overcome with practice) are what encourage people to get to the highest level in the first place?

Besides, when everyone is a competitive player, no one is.
I just quoted sakurai and showed his reasoning, and that reasoning is why L canceling is not coming back period. I myself don't care since I've been playing since 64 and L canceling is something I'm already used to, but I'd still side against it for the simple fact that it's unnecessary.

Also, err, I'm more-so pointing this out because of the way you say it, I know what you actually mean, but your words are self contradicting. You're saying that L canceling isn't a big deal yet you're alluding to a stance where it adds depth. Again, I know what you mean just pointing it out for clarification before others call you out on it.

But something that you yourself don't seem to get is that not everyone is super, not even in the slightest. Even in a game with little to no advanced tech there will always be a huge difference between super players and players of low skill. I know this sounds super elitist, and I know it's not a very positive stance, but no matter how simple a game is there will always be top players and there will always be the other 99%. Brawl is a good example of this, it arguably had the lowest skill ceiling yet the number of people playing it compared to those who played it very well was abysmal, and even if you want to say smash 4 had the lowest skill ceiling, you still had that huge gap present. For glory scrub isn't a meme for no reason. Even with L canceling not being present combined with all of smashU's QOL changes bad players are still going to be bad players.

The fact is that L canceling wouldn't make a lick of difference in the long run. It's not going to make a difference in high level play because everyone there would use it nonstop, and it's not going to make a difference in low level play where it will likely never be used just like 64 and melee's low level play. The reason why it got axed is because it added no depth and served no purpose other than just having another input for the sake of it. You can say that you like it and it feels good to you, nobody can argue that subjectivity, but the fact is that it adds little, it matters little, it has little depth, and it's completely unnecessary in the grand scheme of things because we've had it built into the games for so long now.

I mean I think you were spot on with the whole wavedash button on the other topic, but the argument there is that wavedashing adds something to the game where as l canceling doesn't.
 
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dav3yb

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#92
I'd sooner turn on a toggle to enable random tripping than L-canceling.

It's an absolutely stupid idea, but no one is stopping you from hitting a button every time you land from doing an attack if you find additional inputs for no reason "fun"
 

Quillion

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#93
Funny how it's the exact moment that I drop out of a stagnating discussion when others start popping up.

Even if you "always have to do something", it doesn't mean that it's not "deep". It still adds a greater sense of control over your character. Even if the game could, by all means, "do the work for you", having an input that you "always have to do" is still fun.

Yes, there is such a thing as too many unnecessary inputs. But L-Canceling doesn't even approach that line.

If you want to change my view, don't play the slippery slope card or argue that having just one input that you "always do" isn't deep nor fun. Otherwise I'll just drop out again.
 

dav3yb

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#94
Funny how it's the exact moment that I drop out of a stagnating discussion when others start popping up.

Even if you "always have to do something", it doesn't mean that it's not "deep". It still adds a greater sense of control over your character. Even if the game could, by all means, "do the work for you", having an input that you "always have to do" is still fun.

Yes, there is such a thing as too many unnecessary inputs. But L-Canceling doesn't even approach that line.

If you want to change my view, don't play the slippery slope card or argue that having just one input that you "always do" isn't deep nor fun. Otherwise I'll just drop out again.
So what about the mechanic makes it good, design wise?
 

SSBBDaisy

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#95
all L canceling is another way to test the skill of individual people.

there is no point in having a manual mode for L canceling unless Sakurai wants to take a more aggressive approach and lower the landing lag even more
 

Skyblade12

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#96
How would you feel if the Mario RPGs didn't have the Action Commands mechanic and you just selected an attack from a menu and called it a turn?

Sometimes adding that "arbitrary button press" goes a long way in engaging the player.
The "single player vs multi player" aspect of this comparison has been addressed multiple times, but I'll highlight several other problems with the comparison.

First, as someone who considers traditional JRPGs my favorite genre of all time, I would have absolutely no problem ditching Action Commands. Octopath Traveler doesn't have reaction commands. It's still great. Same with Chrono Trigger, Persona, Pokémon, Bravely Default, Golden Sun... It's actually quite easy to ditch the reaction commands and still have a fantastic and beloved game. Only two other traditional JRPGs that I know of have a similar action system at all, one of which is Shadow Hearts, and the other I'll address a bit later. But the idea that one of those games needs arbitrary action tests to appeal to people is just wrong at a basic level.

Second, your comparison is not a good one. The Mario RPGs don't have many, if any, other "engagement" mechanics, to use your term. Movement, spacing, reaction time, move timing, etcetera... None of this exists in Mario RPGs. So, maybe your problem is that you and those you play against need to discover the analog sticks in Smash, instead of just standing right next to each other and hitting attack buttons at set intervals. There are already a lot more options for depth and engagement, and arbitrarily adding more does not improve the game.

Finally, you seem to miss some elements of game design. The Action commands are communicated to the player, outlined, given prompts, etcetera. They're a core part of the game design. L-Canceling is not. However, there is an RPG which had a similar mechanic. Final Fantasy VIII. The main character, Squall, has the ability to trigger a critical hit with his weapon by pressing the left trigger with timing during his basic attacks. And...it's not really well received. It's too easy, too basic, does nothing to add depth, is incredibly repetitious, and actively harms the game's design and balance. Manual control of a traditional random element means that Squall is doing more damage than he should, or than the other characters do. What's more, since you have to be able to hit your opponent to critically hit them, Squall is the only character in the game with a 255 accuracy score. He can't miss. Even when afflicted with the blind status, he doesn't miss. Because removing your critical hit after you pressed the input would be wrong, so his hits have to be guaranteed. Even fans of the game say that, after the brief novelty of it, this mechanic gets tiresome and old very quickly.

Which is another point of differentiation between it and Action Commands. There are, at least, a variety of Action Commands (all communicated clearly and the are consistent with which attacks they work with) that actually help keep you engaged. With FFVIII, there isn't. You press the same one button. Every attack. And it gets boring and pointless.

How would you feel if in God of War, Devil May Cry, or Bayonetta, the cinematic QTE attacks were simple seconds-long cutscenes? How would you feel if in Street Fighter 3, you parry every attack just by walking forward?
Do you have ANY idea how much criticism has been directed at QTEs over the years? How much they've been mocked or derided as bad game mechanics? If you cut QTEs, most gamers would actually think the games were improved.
 

Flowen231

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#97
If you want to change my view, don't play the slippery slope card or argue that having just one input that you "always do" isn't deep nor fun. Otherwise I'll just drop out again.
But L canceling is one input, and if you don't do it every time you aren't playing the game right. L canceling fits the description of "one input that you always do" and coincidentally it isn't very deep and adds no real value to the game (last bit subjective I guess). The reason that is an argument is because it's the truth (last part subjective)
 
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Quillion

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#98
The "single player vs multi player" aspect of this comparison has been addressed multiple times, but I'll highlight several other problems with the comparison.

First, as someone who considers traditional JRPGs my favorite genre of all time, I would have absolutely no problem ditching Action Commands. Octopath Traveler doesn't have reaction commands. It's still great. Same with Chrono Trigger, Persona, Pokémon, Bravely Default, Golden Sun... It's actually quite easy to ditch the reaction commands and still have a fantastic and beloved game. Only two other traditional JRPGs that I know of have a similar action system at all, one of which is Shadow Hearts, and the other I'll address a bit later. But the idea that one of those games needs arbitrary action tests to appeal to people is just wrong at a basic level.

Second, your comparison is not a good one. The Mario RPGs don't have many, if any, other "engagement" mechanics, to use your term. Movement, spacing, reaction time, move timing, etcetera... None of this exists in Mario RPGs. So, maybe your problem is that you and those you play against need to discover the analog sticks in Smash, instead of just standing right next to each other and hitting attack buttons at set intervals. There are already a lot more options for depth and engagement, and arbitrarily adding more does not improve the game.

Finally, you seem to miss some elements of game design. The Action commands are communicated to the player, outlined, given prompts, etcetera. They're a core part of the game design. L-Canceling is not. However, there is an RPG which had a similar mechanic. Final Fantasy VIII. The main character, Squall, has the ability to trigger a critical hit with his weapon by pressing the left trigger with timing during his basic attacks. And...it's not really well received. It's too easy, too basic, does nothing to add depth, is incredibly repetitious, and actively harms the game's design and balance. Manual control of a traditional random element means that Squall is doing more damage than he should, or than the other characters do. What's more, since you have to be able to hit your opponent to critically hit them, Squall is the only character in the game with a 255 accuracy score. He can't miss. Even when afflicted with the blind status, he doesn't miss. Because removing your critical hit after you pressed the input would be wrong, so his hits have to be guaranteed. Even fans of the game say that, after the brief novelty of it, this mechanic gets tiresome and old very quickly.

Which is another point of differentiation between it and Action Commands. There are, at least, a variety of Action Commands (all communicated clearly and the are consistent with which attacks they work with) that actually help keep you engaged. With FFVIII, there isn't. You press the same one button. Every attack. And it gets boring and pointless.

Do you have ANY idea how much criticism has been directed at QTEs over the years? How much they've been mocked or derided as bad game mechanics? If you cut QTEs, most gamers would actually think the games were improved.

I appreciate how you were able to directly attack my point about having an "always have to do" input no matter the context. My problem with everyone else was that they were applying a double standard.

But it seems that having an "always have to" input doesn't always increase enjoyment. Especially with this:

With FFVIII, there isn't. You press the same one button. Every attack. And it gets boring and pointless.
Even in non-fighting games, hitting a trigger on every attack with no reason not to gets boring.

In the tradition of r/changemyview, I'll give you a Δ.
 

Necro'lic

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#99

I appreciate how you were able to directly attack my point about having an "always have to do" input no matter the context. My problem with everyone else was that they were applying a double standard.

But it seems that having an "always have to" input doesn't always increase enjoyment. Especially with this:



Even in non-fighting games, hitting a trigger on every attack with no reason not to gets boring.

In the tradition of r/changemyview, I'll give you a Δ.
Wow. If it took one post from someone else to change your mind then I must be really bad at convincing people. :c

I'm not sure where I was applying a double standard though.
 

L9999

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Ugh... you know what, Necro'lic Necro'lic ? All we're doing is arguing in circles at this point.

I think adding an additional button press to get a result, even if there's "no reason to not do it", adds enjoyment value to the game. You think that the only way an additional input adds enjoyment value is if it "provides choice" or if there is "reason to not do it." I'm not changing my view, and you're not changing your view. And that's just fine; enjoyment value is entirely subjective.

I'm just agreeing to disagree now. I'm unwatching this thread because discussion has completely stagnated. Until next time...
If by enjoyment value you mean breaking your fingers and busting your arm then surely L Cancel brings enjoyment.
 

Flowen231

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That is kinda true tbh. It's not that L canceling is hard, it's just pointless. It achieves the same result as what we have now but just adds another step in the process that you must do because in a system where it exists not doing it is always objectively worse. As long as there's no reason not to do it it won't really add anything to the game. Since we're on the subject though, are there any inputs similar to L canceling in other smash games? I feel like I'm forgetting something.
 
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JohnOmaha

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There were so many bad analogies ITT that I had to register to comment.

FADCs and Roman Cancels involve a tactical choice of spending super meter to extend a combo or make an unsafe move safer. Their input is as easy as it gets without overlapping with other commands.

Links arise naturally from the frame data of certain moves. For the most part, links are not put into the game for their own sake.

Character specific tech like charge partitioning in 3S and TK cancels in SFIV are exactly that - character specific. Some characters are designed for players that feel rewarded by learning difficult, high execution techniques. However, if that's not your cup of tea, there are dozens of easier but still very competitive characters to choose from. In Smash, you're pretty much forced to learn L-canceling regardless of the character you play (with a few exceptions).

One very important thing to remember is that Smash can't be compared directly to most 2D fighters because of the more open-ended nature of its gameplay. In general, the more movement options there are in a 2D fighting game, the less demanding its combo system. Street Fighter movement mostly consists of walking, jumping and dashing, so there is a bigger emphasis on well-timed/spaced normals, projectile zoning and reversals. Links and cancels have strict timing and complex super motions are commonplace. King of Fighters (aside from XIII) adds universal running, short hops, hyper hops and rolls - to compensate, normals can easily be chained into other normals, leading to easier hit-confirms into big damage. Marvel movement is crazy, so the game's chain combo system is even more lenient than KOF's, with much easier commands for specials and supers. DBFZ is also similar to Marvel.

The reason for this is simple - the harder it is to land a hit on your opponent, the easier it should be to deal damage once you do manage to catch them. Note that regardless of how flexible their movement system is, 2D fighters consist of two characters fighting in a box. Unlike Smash, there are no platforms, no ledges, no off-stage play and all combos work the same regardless of damage percentage or opponent's DI. All of these elements add a lot of depth that a traditional fighter will never have. As such, there is no need for mechanics like L-canceling to make things even more complicated.

The only valid argument I've seen for L-canceling is to have an execution barrier to make it harder for Fox and Falco to lock you down, but guess what? That's a character design problem that is specific to the spaceys. Remove their ability to jump cancel the shine (which is already a very strong move on its own) and the problem goes away completely, allowing several characters to move up the tier list in the process due to a better matchup.

As for your optional toggle idea OP, no one (except you) is going to turn on an option that makes competing more difficult for its own sake in a serious setting. It's like greasing the bar when lifting at the gym - sure, it may make things significantly more difficult (and dangerous) and give you a thrill, but good luck having other people follow along for anything more than a fun gimmick or distraction.
 
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Talk about assuming things.
Usually I would say that I could be making an assumption about someone’s skill or lack there of it, but someone who has the ability to do something, in my eyes, can at least reasonably summise why he/she does not like something in a game in spite of them being able to do it, and their disposition should be clear and reasonable. The fact that you said L-Canceling “breaks your fingers” and “hurts your arms” in such a malicious way, leads me to believe you can’t, or you have not put in the effort to learn, or basing your opinions around the majority of those who oppose the mechanic.

Super Smash Bros. Melee uses analog controller programming, and with the spring-triggered controllers, you are able to execute commands based on the pressure you put on the triggers. An example would be in Super Mario Sunshine, where the pressure in which you spray FLUDD increases the more pressure you put on the trigger, and goes full blast when you click the trigger in. I’m Super Smash Bros Melee, you could manipulate the translucency of your shield by varying the pressure on your L or R buttons, or press Z. This is called light shielding, and gave different shielding methods a purpose in the game, but this is besides my point. Now, since an L-Cancel required you to merely input a shield command before hitting the ground, it means that any amount of pressure necessary to pull up a shield is adequate. You can click it all the way in, or gently tap it. Easy.

Now assuming you have played any other major Nintendo game that requires you to use triggers, you may already be heavily “injured” at this point. Super Mario Sunshine required you to fully press down the trigger to hover or do various platforming tricks all through out the game. Games like Mario Kart DS, which had the Snaking moving mechanic, a series of boost drifts going from left to right, which had to be executed through out the track which involved far more repeated inputs, which was R, left, right, left, right, R, right, left, right, left. This had to be done over and over through out the track, causing you to repeatedly drift while going straight (and people though L-canceling was unnatural). There’s also Mario Tennis, which allows you to cancel the charge of your swing by pressing L. There’s also F-Zero X and GX which requires you to drift and double tap to drift attack your opponents. I think you get the picture.

Now I can understand if you had a complaint about wavedashing, because the requirement for inputting the air dodge is to completely press in the L or R button, so I can see that if you didn’t have the hand strength to do that, but if you couldn’t, you shouldn’t probably be playing games or at least making sure your health takes precedent over them. The same thing in Brawl, since the game didn’t support the analogue function and switched to digital inputs, you had to press the L or R trigger down all the way to Shield, in what I might add is a defense heavy game with strong shielding being necessary, but where are the complaints about that?

Even if this ends up being an assumption, I know for a fact that you are making an attack on others who support the idea, and to say that you aren’t is bull****. The famous case for the hand issue arguments stems from the issues of Jason “Mew2King” Zimmerman, who’ve I got to know on a personal level due to me playing smash through out the years. And while he did have these issues, the man didn’t take much care of himself. Constantly traveling, sleeping in any given crevice he can find, not focusing on his nutrition , in combination with putting all his energy forth on playing the game caused these health issues; it would happen to anyone if they did what he did. I imagine now that since he’s sponsored and has grown wiser to the issue he has maintained a sense of balance in his gaming regiment and diet, hence no more complaints.

I personally have played a lot of Melee, and I still do. I can play a 99 stock match on Yoshi’s with Falco and tech out and not feel any pain, because the reality of the matter is that L-Canceling doesn’t require you to do any unnatural auxiliary movements, just timing. There is no need to reposition your hand or do anything you haven’t been doing in any other game, so I can’t take your claims seriously. And if you want me to next time, maybe don’t come across the issue as someone who’s trying to start an argument?
 

Quillion

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I'm not sure where I was applying a double standard though.
It was the same "having to always press an additional button is okay in singleplayer games but not in multiplayer games" thing that everyone else was trying to convince me of, but it came off as a double standard to me.

Skyblade12 Skyblade12 convinced me that having an input that you "always have to do" is, for the most part, often criticized in most games regardless of genre. The Mario RPGs get away with it because they balance complexity and variety with simplicity and ease. Most other games don't do that, making them dull and unnecessary at best and frustrating at worst.
 
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And how successful are those games? Not very much, honestly. This is coming from someone who loves Pokémon Tournament, practices it, and even played against some of the best players like Bolimar.

And to address what you said about Dragon Ball FighterZ, there are half circle inputs for aerial tags and combo extensions. Half Circle forward + assist for a super tag, Half Circle back for a level 3. There are also special vanish inputs for sparking that allow you to hold down the buttons briefly to vanish and not do an attack, which is easier said than done, and costs sparking.

Cross Tag feels awkward since all of the attacking buttons are a mixed mess, and I personally feel like it suffers from over simplification.

I don’t understand why everyone is so up in arms about a player beating another player because they are mechanically superior. Even if I puts are simplified players with amazing reaction time like Zero are gonna handle you regardless. He ****ed me up in Mario Tennis lol. Even if you see someone do something basic like SH Bair into pivot grab read on an opponent teching in its still going to be impressive because having the ability to be technically precise in that moment is still going to be difficult without L-Canceling, and arguably more difficult without it assuming the aerial doesn’t have low landing lag.

Like 6WX plays with Sonic and you see him auto cancel his SH Bairs, it looks easy, but it requires you to know when to do the aerial and the exact frame when to fast fall so you have auto cancel frames, which is arguably more difficult than lightly tapping L or R. I mean, it works, but what if you could just L-Cancel it? You would still have the benefit of auto canceling moves since having no Lag is better than having the massive landing lag of Sonic’s Bair, but you can still benefit from using it to pressure the opponent by cutting that Lag in half, even if it’s not enough for a true follow up.

Auto cancels reward you for playing a character

L-cancels reward you for playing the game.

I don’t know man, I’ve played a lot of games with a lot of what many reluctant gamers would call “unecessary tech”, but they’ve honestly been the most fun and rewarding. And while there is a limit to it, and you don’t want to go down the path of KOF and the like, having L-Cancel isn’t anything close to doing a Power Gaiser with Terry Boggard, or doing a Deadly Rave with Geese.

I welcome lower landing lag and l-cancels obviously. I don’t feel like there’s no reason why it can’t be the game, especially if it will help characters like Bowser, who will definitely not have low landing lag on most of his aerials.
Isn’t Pokken still outperforming Street Fighter V? Being the first entry in the series and being restricted to niche-ish Nintendo consoles has limited it’s competitive potential sure but it’s still a lot bigger than many of the long runners.

Pocket Rumble just released, and initial impressions seem positive and befitting for the small scale of the game.

Blade Strangers is still months off, but initial impressions and it’s following seem strong.

Regardless, these games’ popularity doesn’t seem to be hampered by a lack of execution. On the contrary, they attract more players because of their streamlined inputs. Pokken has a lot of Smash overlap, and I suspect as Smash moves to the Switch it’ll grow even more as people get fed up with Smash’s competitive shortcomings.

Speaking of Smash... Smash 4 is one of the most successful fighting games ever by every metric. The technical difficulty is, frankly, much lower in Smash versus Pokken (and likely the other two as well). Any real, useful tech is either horribly niche or highly character specific. Yeah you have Smash’s unique combo memorization and positioning but Pokken has far more useful and relevant combo lines and it’s own unique positioning mechanic. Smash 4 is about as anti-tech as you get, and by all means Ultimate seems to be pushing even further away from any sort of tech at all.

I’m well aware of auto cancel optimization. Actually I wouldn’t be surprised if Sakurai killed off autocancels and simplified landing with aerials... So instead every move has a mechanic like Mach Tornado. Using an aerial will give you X amount of endlag, no matter when you land. I see a lot of intermediate players struggle with these mechanics and I feel like Sakurai would do it... That and it would make the SH aerial macro make sense. Even if not at release, we did get that shield change, after all.

I have never played a game with tech in that sense that felt anything more than stupid and tedious. I dip my toes in a lot of speedrunning and speed adjacent communities... People come in and often quickly leave over stupidly precise tricks and techniques far more than they stay. People want options in games, not tech spam. People didn’t like snaking in MKDD/DS, people don’t like mash heavy games... Hell, the most competitive categories in F-Zero GX ban snaking and side attacks. Meanwhile, have you ever seen an easy tech (not skip, the tech itself) get banned from any major categories? I don’t believe anybody’s ever entertained the idea of banning momentum throttling...
 
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