I have a very serious question about Sheik's gender!

[MookieRah]

@Desruprot
Not true. She transforms in front of Link. OoT is my reference, and this youtube link proves it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIaokM--Pk
@Ageman
I appreciate your efforts to go into the realm of psychology, but that isn't really the point. Also, you are confusing sex with gender. Gender is what the person identifies themselves as, while sex is their actual biological distinction. Here is a wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
Also, I'll point out that Sheik's gender is female, because Zelda's gender is female. Sheik is Zelda, however, that doesn't mean that she didn't magically assume the form of a man to conceal her identity.

Also, you really need to brush up on your psychology. Transvestites are very rarely homosexual. You specifically claimed they were "gays who dressed up as women" but usually it is composed of either males who identify themselves as women or men who have a sexual fetish of getting aroused by being viewed as a woman.

@Gilgamesh
Yeah, I do believe they intend for Sheik to be a woman now, regardless of their intentions in OoT. I'm wouldn't be surprised if this change was due in large part because of some cultures (primarily the US) would get up in arms over a character transforming into another sex. Nintendo has already treaded down the role of transexuals with Birdo, but later declared him a "her".

The cultural differences between how Japan views gender, the sexes, and just sexual things in general is vastly different. For starters homosexuality isn't something that is shunned upon or carries anywhere near the stigma it does in the US. This holds too for trans-sexuals in their culture as well.

The US is really really reserved and I dare say "repressed to all get out" due to our religious background. The US is also a huuuuuge market for games, so negative press for Nintendo that would sully it's reputation (ESPECIALLY when they are seen as kid friendly) concerning trans-gendered or female to male transformations would be bad.

So all in all, Sheik is referred to as a woman now by Nintendo, but that doesn't mean that was their original concept.

 

[Nilok]

I noticed something about Sheik's OoT concept art, "she" has the boob binding. Why would Sheik, if Zelda turned into a "male", wear boob bindings?

It is true that Sheik looks really manly, however it seems that they originally intended for her to be a female "ninja".

Edit: I was looking over the OoT Concept art, and noticed that Ganondorf, Link and other male human characters have a "Package", and Sheik dose not (Non-Human Character are the exception).

Edit 2: Why is Smashboards going into the sh*ter right now? I have not been able to connect to Smashboards for sometimes up to an hour.

 

[MookieRah]

Why would Sheik, if Zelda turned into a "male", wear boob bindings?

Why would Sheik, wearing "boob binders," have well defined pectoral muscles? How come she no longer has a feminine waist? How come she has more muscles around the arms? How come she has wide shoulders?

As for the no bulge in the crotch, that's why I stand by the fact that Shiek is genderless.

 

[Nilok]

Why would Sheik, wearing "boob binders," have well defined pectoral muscles? How come she no longer has a feminine waist? How come she has more muscles around the arms? How come she has wide shoulders?

As for the no bulge in the crotch, that's why I stand by the fact that Shiek is genderless.

Simply being more buff doesn't change or remove a gender, if you look at many women body builders they look very manly. All Zelda's transformation could have done is change eye color, skin color, and muscle mass.

 

[Aminar]

The reason there is a debate is because some people, such as my best friend find SHiek attractive, and in the case of my best friend she cannot rationalize being attracted to a female so obviously Shiek is male. True story.

 

[Linkeatspie]

I used to be in the "Shiek's a guy" camp, but now all evidence points to her being female. The reason many people thought/think that Sheik is a guy is because, from what I can take:

a. Sheik does not exactly 'scream' feminine; even after Zelda revealing her to be Sheik, people deduced that Zelda could have used magic to change her gender. I.e, Sheik's lack of cleavage, male figure, etc.

b. The Official American OoT guide called Sheik a 'he'. However, it can be pointed out that NoA is not exactly canon.

c. People were unable to accept how awesomely cool a girl could be in video games.

Sakurai and SSBM are not Zelda canon; they may be published by Nintendo but the Smash games are developed by HAL Laboratory and not the Zelda developers. Thus if those games or Sakurai called Sheik a girl it would mean nothing for the Zelda franchise.

But all evidence points to her being female, as I said. So the above points are now null.

 

[error_alt_delete]

I am confued as well as to how this started, shiek was never refered to as a he in OoT. in fact, shiek was never refered too(since she only talked to link the entire time, and we know how link is a mute) and no-one else ever spoke to or referenced her. so how you got he out of it I'll never know. if you use common sense a female character, who changes her clothes with magic, is still female, very basic logic people.

I cant believe it took till sakurai's confirmation on her to figure it out.

EDIT: oopps, I didnt see that part on the post above, still, I never read the guide, and still considered shiek a female since it seemed link had a interest in her (well, as much as I can tell about someone who doesnt speak)

 

[Linkeatspie]

I am confued as well as to how this started, shiek was never refered to as a he in OoT. in fact, shiek was never refered too(since she only talked to link the entire time, and we know how link is a mute) and no-one else ever spoke to or referenced her. so how you got he out of it I'll never know. if you use common sense a female character, who changes her clothes with magic, is still female, very basic logic people.

I cant believe it took till sakurai's confirmation on her to figure it out.

EDIT: oopps, I didnt see that part on the post above, still, I never read the guide, and still considered shiek a female since it seemed link had a interest in her (well, as much as I can tell about someone who doesnt speak)

What I failed to mention about the guide is that it is not canon; it was made by Nintendo of America and they seem to make up all sorts of stuff as it relates to the Zelda series. (See the A Link to the Past instruction manual for an example of that).

 

[Spellman]

Wow, what is with the male genitalia argument? That is never an issue on the subject of anything Nintendo.

 

[DarkSpidey13]

Sheik is Zelda disguised as a man.

in OoT, Ruto refers to Sheik as "him," which proves that the disguise is SUPPOSED to be male. however, clearly Zelda is female, so of course underneath the disguise the character is female.

but, again, the Sheik persona that Zelda created is SUPPOSED to be male, to those who DO NOT KNOW that it is Zelda.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Whether or not the character Sheik is suppose to be Zelda playing the part of a man, her biology reveals that she's female...

...I think the Biology matters more

 

[iLink]

The way I see it is this.

Yes Zelda is a female. When she turns into shiek, she is disguised as a male, but is still a female. There is only one shiek so why say its a guy when the only person to ever be shiek is a female?

And novus your logic doesn't really work because Zelda is the one turning into shiek, which would make shiek a female. If I wore a zelda costume, it wouldn't make me female.

 

[MetalLink99]

This is getting stupid.

Face it, Shiek is a girl, nuff said. Btw she needs those breast restrictors (or whatever there are called) for aerodynamics for her Ninja like moves! Also to fool idiots like Gannondorf.

 

[silver777]

she used magic to change her eye, hair and skin color.

she also used it to change her gender.

 

[Deleted member]

she used magic to change her eye, hair and skin color.

she also used it to change her gender.

No she didn't. It's just a game. You could say she just put in contacts, sprayed on a skin color change and wore a wig. There is no proof either way and Nintendo is not one to include gender changing.

 

[silver777]

No she didn't. It's just a game. You could say she just put in contacts, sprayed on a skin color change and wore a wig. .

Or.....she used magic. The game shows us that she transformed using magic.

There is no proof either way and Nintendo is not one to include gender changing

 

[GameAngel64]

Sakurai and SSBM are not Zelda canon; they may be published by Nintendo but the Smash games are developed by HAL Laboratory and not the Zelda developers. Thus if those games or Sakurai called Sheik a girl it would mean nothing for the Zelda franchise.

GI: Have you been consulted at all for the usage of Link or Sheik or Ganondorf for Smash Bros. Brawl?

Aonuma: I’ve been working with Sakurai for a very long time with this new Smash Bros., because the Wii came out and when discussion for a new Smash Bros. took place nobody could think of anyone other than Sakurai working on it. He was kind of the default, and I was very happy to hear that he would be working on it. Actually, my designers did work on the designs for Sheik and Link and Ganondorf. So they submitted the initial designs, and so it would fit in the Smash Bros. Brawl environment, they’ve had to tweak some of the designs. But Sakurai has brought those altered designs to NCL. We’re working very closely with the team of Smash Bros. Brawl to make sure the characters look their best.

Eiji Aonuma (?? ??, Aonuma Eiji?, born 1963) is a Japanese designer and director of video games. He currently works for Nintendo, and the latest game he oversaw was The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, the latest installment in the popular The Legend of Zelda series.

Aonuma and his crew submitted designs for Sheik. They are Nintendo. Now, real adamant lovers of a male Sheik may contend that Sakurai slapped a pair of boobs where there were none on Aonuma's model, but I would guess that Aonuma and his Nintendo crew designed her in a more feminine way, demonstrating support from the Nintendo side of things that Sheik is female. I would guess that she looked the most masculine she'd ever looked in OoT just so the player wouldn't catch on that it was Zelda prematurely. Once that mystery was gone, progressive character models have been more blatant about her femininity.

 

[Espy Rose]

^ That made me laugh. Pure Win. (I meant the Birdo image btw) ^

So all in all, Sheik is referred to as a woman now by Nintendo, but that doesn't mean that was their original concept.

Regardless of what their original intent was, their intention right now is the absolute.

However, I'm going to ignore what I just said and conclude this:

In OoT:
Zelda = Female
Sheik (Sheikah prior to OoT Storyline) = Male
Zelda disguised as Sheik = Female in "spirit", but disguised with the anatomy of a Male. Physically male, mentally female. Can be disputed, and can sex/gender can be deemed ambiguous.

In Smash Bros:
Zelda = Female
Zelda disguised as Sheik = Female

Nintendo as of recent:
Zelda & Zelda disguised as Sheik = Female


At least, that's my take on the subject.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Somehow I doubt that Zelda would use magic to grow a pair.
A flat, chested curveless girl is still a girl.
And I don't think you can mistake Sheik's gender now...

 

[Fonz]

Just because some of you were somehow fooled when playing melee or OoT and assumed Sheik was male because of appearances doesn't make it true. Sure, you may have had that idea in your head for years, but fact is you were wrong and still are. Sheik has always been and will always be female.

 

[WarMachine]

I hate to break this to some of you... but Zelda is a video game character, and as such doesn't actually have genitals... male OR female...

People think Sheik is a man because Sheik looks like a man. It's that simple.


Personally, I always just assumed that some serious cross-dressing was occurring.

 

[MookieRah]

Simply being more buff doesn't change or remove a gender, if you look at many women body builders they look very manly. All Zelda's transformation could have done is change eye color, skin color, and muscle mass.

For starters, women body builders still have noticeable breasts and Sheik isn't muscular enough to be classified as a body builder. Given her muscle mass, her breasts would make more of an indent on her chest and wouldn't allow for the pectoral muscles to be so defined. I might even draw and illustration showing what I'm talking about later, but at the moment I'm not gonna bother.

Secondly, there are more changes than muscles mass, hair, eyes, and whatnot. You still haven't brought up anything about her shoulders being wider and her hips not being as wide.

The reason there is a debate is because some people, such as my best friend find SHiek attractive, and in the case of my best friend she cannot rationalize being attracted to a female so obviously Shiek is male. True story.

Way to generalize everyone who disagrees with you based on one idiot. Good job!

I used to be in the "Shiek's a guy" camp, but now all evidence points to her being female.

What evidence?

a. Sheik does not exactly 'scream' feminine; even after Zelda revealing her to be Sheik, people deduced that Zelda could have used magic to change her gender. I.e, Sheik's lack of cleavage, male figure, etc.

That is what I've been debating, so yeah, I agree on that.

b. The Official American OoT guide called Sheik a 'he'. However, it can be pointed out that NoA is not exactly canon.

OK, so we can agree that NoA isn't canon, I'm down with that.

c. People were unable to accept how awesomely cool a girl could be in video games.

OK, now THAT is BS. Samus is a badass. I don't know of many people that think that she is too awesome to be a girl. What a very dumb statement to make. It's like reverse sexism. You assume everyone else is some kind of a sexist XD.

Sakurai and SSBM are not Zelda canon; they may be published by Nintendo but the Smash games are developed by HAL Laboratory and not the Zelda developers. Thus if those games or Sakurai called Sheik a girl it would mean nothing for the Zelda franchise.

Also agree on this.

But all evidence points to her being female, as I said. So the above points are now null.

Again... what evidence? Where does Nintendo of Japan come out and say "Hey guys, Shiek is a girl." They didn't and they won't at this point.

Somehow I doubt that Zelda would use magic to grow a pair.
A flat, chested curveless girl is still a girl.

This is true, that is a possibility, but it also isn't outside the realm of possibility that the spell indeed make her male or even something that transcends genders entirely.

The thing is, I don't mind people believing Sheik is a woman, that's not what bugs me. What bugs me is how many people refer to the other camp as being idiotic and claiming they don't have any grounds to stand on. Nintendo has not fully came out and said which way or the other, and by imagery alone it definitely points out that Sheik is EXCEEDINGLY more masculine with more male biological traits than female traits.

Why is it so hard to be "a little" open minded about this? I'm not trying to get you people to believe my theory or the "sheik is a dude theory", but geez at least kinda "get" why other people believe differently.

 

[Fearthesmash]

The correct term is potatoe.

 

[platnum]

Those who think Sheik is a guy have never played Ocarina of Time. It's just that simple, and we should truly pity them.

those poor misguided souls...

@people who have not played oot:you sicken me, play it!



on topic:I think the whole shiek=guy thing came from shieks lack of brests in melee, almost fooled me.

 

[KernelColonel]

The main debate (at least, in the first few pages) was pretty much arguing the difference between physically and mentally. Physically, "Sheik" is a ****ing chick, there is no god****ed way around it. But mentally, the persona of Sheik is inarguably male.

If you want to argue which speaks for Sheik's gender as a whole, go for it.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The main debate (at least, in the first few pages) was pretty much arguing the difference between physically and mentally. Physically, "Sheik" is a ****ing chick, there is no god****ed way around it. But mentally, the persona of Sheik is inarguably male.

If you want to argue which speaks for Sheik's gender as a whole, go for it.

If your physically female, that's what makes you female...

Saying your male is only "Playing pretend"

 

[LightLink17]

This is true, that is a possibility, but it also isn't outside the realm of possibility that the spell indeed make her male or even something that transcends genders entirely.

In the OoT manga (which admittedly is not necessarily canon) Shiek was male, and seemed to be unaware that he was actually not really a person. He seemed to have his own identity and have no idea that he was Zelda.




Anyway, I'm totally in the "Shiek's a guy" camp. I don't care how much wrapping and stuff you do, the amount of masculine features that Shiek displays is enough to say that Zelda flat out changed her gender.

 

[Dabble]

It seems to me that the only reason people are having this debate is because we have sexually confused teenagers with a fetish for sheik, but don't know what to perceive her as, so when they masticate to her (keeping it kid friendly by not saying the actual word) they have no real idea of what they are getting off to.

See what society does to our youth?

As for the debate; it is a frickin' male, why are people having problems with this? Do I smell segregation of cross gendered people?

I always thought Smashboards allowed everybody equal rights; I didn't realize it was such an issue that we have to debate a gender of a person who is both genders.

Pathetic really. I won't lie; I am actually offended by this.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I think in the Ocarina of Time instruction booklet, it described Shiek as a "he" to keep Zelda's identity slightly more mysterious. People that have played the game, or can spot boobies, know this to be false.

 

[tshahi10]

I do believe sheik is a girl and I have played all the zelda games and Oot, but it never crossed my mind that she was a guy. i also read the manga, but.....

all of us may say that the guide book is not canon

However, not only does ssbm say she is a girl in context, but ssbb does as well

Sheik doesn’t appear in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but we based her model on a design that was drafted up during the development of that game.

What was really interesting to me was that they said this sheik was based on a drafted version during the development of TP. Was sheik supposed to be in it? or were they just having fun?

Don't mid me being stereotypical, but I think the physical characteristics of sheik, especially this one lean towards sheik being a girl


1 she has a women's frame so to speak
2 she probably does have a bigger chest, but with all the wrapping she uses like in her fingers, isn't it possible she uses it to squish her chest, to make it appear flat? it does look like that in the first pic
3 her hair is long, but tied. guys have long hair, but......
4 besides he chest, the other 2 sizes look perfectly like a girl's.
5 her hands are stereotypically a women's. very small and thin fingers when compared to a male
6 she is extremely flexible. not that guys can't be that flexible, but it is very unlikely
7the streamlined figure.....doesn;t go well with a guy. remember link in the white tights. imagine them switching costumes.
8 if you switched sheik's costume with link, it would be baggy and non-porportionate, just like when a girl wears a guys clothes
9 u can compare her to other female ninjas not from naruto.
10 i'm not gay lol

 

[Nilok]

@MookieRa

Aonuma and his crew submitted designs for Sheik. They are Nintendo. Now, real adamant lovers of a male Sheik may contend that Sakurai slapped a pair of boobs where there were none on Aonuma's model, but I would guess that Aonuma and his Nintendo crew designed her in a more feminine way, demonstrating support from the Nintendo side of things that Sheik is female. I would guess that she looked the most masculine she'd ever looked in OoT just so the player wouldn't catch on that it was Zelda prematurely. Once that mystery was gone, progressive character models have been more blatant about her femininity.

I think this is something you glanced over you should look at MookieRa.

 

[PilotEvan]

I believe MookieRah is nailing it so far.

First of all, as stated before, the Smash universe does not correlate with the Zelda universe, so let's get beyond what's posted on the Dojo when discussing this (both through the text and her model).

Second, I have played Ocarina of Time MANY, MANY times, and I distinctly remember Princess Ruto saying "him" when referencing to Shiek twice. Once inside the Water Temple before activating the first water-level control, and the second time when exiting the Chamber of the Sages (after beating the Water Temple) as a goodbye, "Thank him for me" kind of message. However, this could mean that she was completely unaware that it was Zelda in disguise, as we are at the time. On the other hand, she IS a Sage, and thus almost all-knowing when it comes to these things. After all, Impa tells you in the Chamber of the Sages in a subtle, suggesting manner that you'll meet Zelda soon, so she obviously knew of the disguise. This could be because she was a Sage, or simply because she's a servant of the Royal Family (and thus, a servant of Zelda). Even then, Ruto could have STILL known, but kept it a secret to you, as Impa does. All in all, there's really no straightforward way of knowing Sheik's sex by how Sheik is mentioned through text, unless there's something I blatantly overlooked in the conversations.

Thirdly, by looking at the both the model in Ocarina of Time and in the concept art, Sheik clearly has a male figure. The triangle-shaped torso that is associated with male body types is present. The waist is almost non-existant, which is not characteristic for a woman. And obviously, the breasts are nonexistant (they are clearly Pectoralis Major muscles). Once again, both the concept art AND the in-game model have these features.

Lastly, Zelda has the Triforce of freaking Wisdom. If Ganondorf can transform himself into the huge, pig-like monster we know as Ganon using the Triforce of Power, why the heck can't Zelda transform herself into the opposite sex with the Triforce of Wisdom? There's absolutely no "rulebook" to what the Triforce pieces can and can't do, so this should be the ultimate debunker. She could have transformed herself into a rock if she wanted to, for all we know. It's magic.

But no matter what evidence (magic, statements, or physical traits) it could be either one, or neither. For all we know, Sheik is genderless. I honestly don't think there's enough evidence to prove that it's "definately" a single answer.

 

[Puffs]

What was really interesting to me was that they said this sheik was based on a drafted version during the development of TP. Was sheik supposed to be in it? or were they just having fun?

Well, take a look at TP. Which seems more likely?

-They actually went through many ideas to perfect TP as a story
-They were screwing around during development and threw it together to satiate OoT fanboys/girls after pissing them off with decent games.

It's the latter, don't kid yourself.

And the "everybody wins" answer to this debate: Sheik is a FTM.

 

[MookieRah]

Physically, "Sheik" is a ****ing chick, there is no god****ed way around it. But mentally, the persona of Sheik is inarguably male.
If you want to argue which speaks for Sheik's gender as a whole, go for it.

Again, what is your proof that Sheik's sex is female? Can you provide evidence that can counter all of the masculine body traits and lack thereof feminine traits? If you can, we can debate it, but since you don't have any new information or even a new perspective it's simply ignorant to claim your viewpoint as fact.

I don't see why everyone is claiming that Sheik's gender is male. There is no proof of that. Sheik has very few lines, none of which seem to indicate to me that she identifies herself as male. That persona is an act, you can't claim that a role someone plays is indicative of their overall gender. I really don't think most of the people arguing gender identity in this thread really know what they are talking about...

All in all, while Sheik's SEX is up in the air, whether it be male, female, or genderless, her gender is female. UNLESS Zelda identified herself as male as a child and as a young adult her gender would be female. Changing into a man physically doesn't equate to changing into a man mentally.

People that have played the game, or can spot boobies, know this to be false.

O rly? Spot the boobies on the OoT Sheik character design for me then.

It seems to me that the only reason people are having this debate is because we have sexually confused teenagers with a fetish for sheik, but don't know what to perceive her as, so when they masticate to her (keeping it kid friendly by not saying the actual word) they have no real idea of what they are getting off to.

Although I'm assuming you are more on my side of the fence (which is open to the possibility of her biological sex changed to either male or something that isn't a gender entirely) it's wrong to accuse people that they are doing this out of some kind of fetishism. I find it hard to believe that everyone (some are definitely, but not all) on the side of her claiming she is female is doing it entirely out of the fact they want to maintain Zelda's sanctity as a female character cause they are sexually attracted to her in any way.

What was really interesting to me was that they said this sheik was based on a drafted version during the development of TP. Was sheik supposed to be in it? or were they just having fun?

Who knows what plans they had in store for it, but the thing is that TP Sheik is simply not OoT Sheik. The surprise is over so there isn't really a need to make her anything but female. It's simply a new revamped look. Ganon got a pretty crazy makeover too.

That is a valid argument, and it's definitely a good one. I kinda touched on that subject in a different perspective as well in my earlier arguments about Nintendo changing things that are somewhat controversial.

10 i'm not gay lol

Man... seriously... why even post that? Only an idiot would assume you were gay for defending your opinion that Sheik is a woman.

@PilotEvan- I love you.

 

[Spellman]

Sheik is more feminine in Brawl, and this may be for the same reasons the idea behind Birdo being a cross dresser were dropped. For weirdness purposes, I've always just considered Sheik female anyways.

 

[Nilok]

I have a question to both sides of the argument, are you willing the accept the other side's point of view, or do you need conclusive evidence? And if there is evidence, would you accept it?

 

[Mic_128]

This...I mean....honestly....just...gah.

Sheik was originally designed to appear less feminine. Why? Because in OoT Sheik turning out to be Zelda was a huge plot twist, plus Zelda was hiding from Ganon the whole time. The fact that as soon as she revealed herself she got captured shows how serious she had to make her disguise.

Now, can this PLEASE be the last thread EVER about this? Sheik is a GIRL. CASE CLOSED.