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I finally found a character I want to main...but he's not competitively viable?

shadowrohas

Smash Rookie
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Jan 15, 2015
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I finally decided that I really like Dr. Mario. He's really fun to me, and he's the first character that I really like and I want to play 24/7 to improve.

Thing is, I also want to (eventually) play in tournaments and stuff like that, and I believe it's clear that he isn't competitively viable...So what should I do? Should I just move on to a character that is viable in tournaments and stuff like that? Or keep playing Dr. Mario?
 

Teh Sandwich

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 9, 2010
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I wouldn't say that any character is not viable in this game yet. It's still so fresh, and it's pretty well balanced.
Just play who you have the most fun with.
Although, it can be really helpful in tournament to be comfortable with 2 characters.
 

Pazx

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When I saw this thread's title I was looking forward to telling you your character is definitely viable at this point in time. Upon seeing your character is Dr. Mario I'm a little disheartened.

In my opinion, Doc is one of the only characters (along with Lucina) who has a direct upgrade in most situations. There are probably a significant number of characters that aren't viable at the highest level, but at lower levels for someone just entering the tournament scene I think any character is fine. I wouldn't say Doc is the worst character in the game but everything he can do can be done better by another character. Experiment with the heavies, with Mario/Luigi, CQC characters, because they are likely all more viable than him.

In a customs-off meta: You are better off playing another character (Mario is likely a straight upgrade). I play Doc quite a bit because he's a fun character, but if you want to compete you will likely need to play a different character.

In a customs-on meta: More than viable. Mario is probably still better than him, but to a lesser extent. Get to know Doc's custom moves, because they're good.
 

shadowrohas

Smash Rookie
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Jan 15, 2015
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I dunno, I've been bouncing between characters a lot. I've bounced between Marth, R.O.B, Shulk, Mega Man, and Doc.

I kind of want a character who'd be able to react to most situations, even if he/she isn't the best at it. It sounds like it'd be Mario, but...something about him I don't like. Maybe I should just give him another chance considering I like Doc so much.
 
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Kwam$tack$

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switching to mario will be the best thing you ever did. learn to combo. and not just dthrow utilt cause every mario does that and calls it a "combo" . I mean real combos. Mario can combo most characters quite well. especially the heavies
 
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Raijinken

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Encourage custom moves, which greatly improve his viability.

Or just get good enough that it doesn't matter. Who knows, you may discover some great anti-Diddy/Sheik techniques that change the metagame significantly.
 

digiholic

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If he's not viable, make him viable. It's way too early to discount anyone, and we need all the data we can get to make a matchup chart, so be the good Dr. Mario that grows the competitive scene for everyone.
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

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Oct 20, 2013
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If You're competitively viable, as in your work hard to improve your game and understand your opponents you will do well. You will do even better if you pick a character you like to play. Your personal comfort is going to always be more important than what a tier list says.

But then, if we're a year or 2 down the road. And you feel like your character is holding back your ability and people around you are telling you that you're good but doc is a booty character. Then you might consider switching him for someone else. But for now playing with who you like and who you're most comfortable with is key to success. And hey you'll be having the most fun possible too.
 

Wintropy

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If you're already discouraged because he isn't competitively viable, you have two options:

1. Drop him right now and try somebody else

2. Do your best anyway and stick with it regardless

Personally, I would favour the latter option. I feel that any character can be useful in the right situations, and while there are characters that perform in certain respects objectively better than Doc, he still has his uses. Keep practicing. The worst you can do is quit before even giving it a chance, and he may well end up being the best character you've ever played.
 

TotallyNotMikey

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Tiers are always subjective. They may be mathematically correct in a way, but if you can make a character work, stick with it. If you do think you could do well with another, higher tier character, try practising with said character. You may end up doing better in the long run.
 

HeroMystic

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The answer to your question often depends on what your goal is when going to tournaments.

1. Is your goal to become the next top-tier player, along leagues of Ally, M2K, ZeRo, and NAKAT?
2. Is your goal to be the best player with a certain character?
3. Is your goal to just win tournaments?

My personal goal is #2 with Mario, so even if I feel he doesn't match up well in the tournament scene, I'll try my hardest to make it work. Similarly, I also hope I can achieve #1 as well, but that's not something you can "aim" for without sacrificing a lot of your time.

If your goal is to just win tournaments, I'll be very frank and say you should drop Doc and pick a character that has clearly shown results (Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, etc.). But if you want to win tournaments with Doc, then you should play Doc.
 

Squid Squad

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If you do end up playing as Dr.Mario I would atleast consider picking up a secondary to cover bad matchups. Who knows maybe there will be one last balance patch from Nintendo and Doc will be buffed.
 
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Kraetyz

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Keep playing Doc, man. The amount of respect you'll gain just from winning a single game will be worth it. That being said, as someone else mentioned you should probably have more than one character to be comfortable with.

I, too, love Doctor Mario. To me he's way more fun and cool to play than both Mario and Luigi. Don't think I'll ever get good with him, though. :(
 

Emblem Lord

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Depends entirely on your goal. If you just want respect and to be amazing with the character, then play Doc.

If you want to win tournies with strong competition, then no Doc is not going to cut it in the long haul.

Think about what you want and go from there.
 

Slugginz

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I personally think that viability relies on how the player handles the character. Of course it could be argued some characters are just flat out better than others but I believe having a good grasp on the game as a whole will make you better with lower tier characters.
If you find Dr. Mario to be your favourite character and you want to push him into competitive play then practice with him. Take into account his weaknesses and strengths, find ways to counter common methods of beating him (combos, spacing etc.). Just have fun with him because he's a great character.
 

Jedisupersonic

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Keep going with Doc if you like him the best, I like Mario better in this game myself, but I do enjoy Doc's dair and down B much more then Mario.

Personally just stay on stage, Doc's main weakness imo is his offstage capabilities. He's fun to play like everyone is in this game.
 

⑨ball

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Play him anyway. Maybe pick up a secondary to cover bad MUs. Since you're bouncing around anyway try other characters as they've been suggested.

At this point in the metagame, competitively unviable pretty much translates to "we have no idea what this character can do or any reason to believe they could do well given what we know about others". It'll take a lot of work an exploration on your part to find a path that makes him so if that's what you really want. You might not find it, but if it's what you want you know where to start already.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I'm going to say what's unpopular to say but honestly true. Play someone good enough to win. Dr. Mario is not as bad as most people say but honestly just not worth it over the ordinary Mario; it's just obvious he's the worse version of the same basic moveset. Every time you lose a set you'll always wonder if you lost because of the limitations of your character or because of your own lack of skill. You'll always have to work harder to move ahead of others than you would with a stronger character. Right now we still don't know the tier list (especially when you start getting into how the ruleset can have a big effect on character viability, especially customs on/off) so it's easy to end up investing a lot into an ultimately bad character thinking they're good. That's a shame, and some of us won't be able to avoid it. Those players will have to learn a new character later in the game's lifespan or accept a permanent disadvantage which will just make their road harder. That's just the risk of playing a new game. If you know your character isn't worth it in the first place though, you can avoid this now. Don't intentionally invest into a sub-optimal choice.

The short version is that you should really just drop Doc, probably for the ordinary Mario who is by current accounts seeming like a pretty good character. You can be more of a "hero" with a bad character, but you'll have more fun and win more with a good one. The game starts on the character select screen, and the more willing you are to accept that reality, the better off you are as a player.
 

PokÉmblem

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Do whatever you feel like doing especially since every character is somewhat viable because of the good balance in game. I main Dedede and I love meta knight and I make it work. When people say meta knight sucks in smash 4 I beat them to prove them wrong. It's all about the skill and the skill with the character not just this character is good or bad. Play whoever you want even if it's a low tier character.
 

etecoon

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Similarly, I also hope I can achieve #1 as well, but that's not something you can "aim" for without sacrificing a lot of your time.
And sacrificing a lot of your time doesn't mean it can happen either, there are people that have grinded the hell out of these games and have little to show for it. Just have fun with it for now, if you have the talent level of an Ally or Zero this will become evident even with a mediocre character, when you know you're really good -then- consider picking up Diddy or Sheik or someone. For now if you pick the best characters only to win more and it turns out you aren't that good, then you really don't accomplish much
 

Fancy

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Go for it. Dr.Mario really isn't as bad as people think. Remember when Jigglypuff was considered non-viable in melee? It wasn't until recently that Jiggly was considered top tier, many years after the game released. There is a small chance the same could happen in Sm4sh, but have at least one other main to cover your tracks.
 

Sideslick

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MAKE him competitively-viable then!

  • @T1MMY and @T0MMY main Kirby and Pichu in Melee (I think respectively? They might have switched identities at some point).
  • @Wobbles is essentially single-handedly responsible for the Icees' climb from bottom tier (climbing-pun totally-intended.)
  • I've seen a Canadian-smasher going by "Big-D" (He's tall, his name is Dawson, and he mains D3) wreck people in Smash 4 using Dedede, and play a pretty great grand-finals vs. Mew2King at the last Northwest Majors.

Letting tier-lists get to you is never good. Yeah, some other characters might be easier for the majority of people, but you are you, not Mango playing Fox, or HBox playing Jiggs.

In fact, Mango and HungryBox are pretty much the entire reason Jiggs is seen as high-tier in Melee. Try to emulate that with Dr. Mario. Give the tier-list a taste of it's own medicine (I'm on a roll with these puns...)

I can speak from experience against abiding by tier-lists from when I switched to Diddy for game-3 and swiftly got knocked out of my last tournament, after doing fairly-well the rest of that match as Toon Link.

If you have fun and do well, why change that?

(Plus, isn't it just great when you wreck people in new and interesting ways?)
 

Stormfury12

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Play the characters you enjoy. I main Young Link/Ganondorf in Melee and they're by no means top tier, but I enjoy using them over Fox/Falco and I win with them. In Brawl I used Ganondorf and won a lot of stuff, sure I may have been limiting myself but I didn't care, because I had fun using Ganon. In 4 its the same thing. I'm sticking with Ganondorf and I picked up Lucina. If you put enough work and dedication into a character you'll find great things to get out of it! Represent the characters you love! Plus this game is still early so the meta hasn't developed a ton.
 

DunnoBro

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Go for it. Dr.Mario really isn't as bad as people think. Remember when Jigglypuff was considered non-viable in melee? It wasn't until recently that Jiggly was considered top tier, many years after the game released. There is a small chance the same could happen in Sm4sh, but have at least one other main to cover your tracks.
Jiggly was never considered non-viable, she was always upper-mid tier. And she also had some gimmicks that needed time before they were understood. Dr. Mario doesn't really have any such gimmicks, what you see is what you get. A worse Mario. If you like Dr. Mario, you should like Mario.

I honestly recommend switching.

Edit: Unless customs become legal, then he probably becomes viable.
 
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MezzoMe

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For most tournaments, you can do pretty well with him, especially considering that most smashers encounter so rarely low tier that eventually they don't know what to do, making your work easier.
If you plan on using him in big tournaments where people don't fall for such things, then either have a secondary or play the low/middle-tier bracket if you aren't confident that you can't overcome the better characters.
 

Fancy

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Jiggly was never considered non-viable, she was always upper-mid tier. And she also had some gimmicks that needed time before they were understood. Dr. Mario doesn't really have any such gimmicks, what you see is what you get. A worse Mario. If you like Dr. Mario, you should like Mario.

I honestly recommend switching.

Edit: Unless customs become legal, then he probably becomes viable.
Oh I definitely know that Jigglypuff's situation was completely different, I was just pointing out that early tier lists are never right. And I don't think Dr.Mario and Mario is as interchangeable in SSB4 as say, Marth and Lucina. I've used both intensely, but that's what I think, and this is all opinion based. It really depends on how Shadowrohas plays as Doc, and if he uses Dr.Mario's unique properties in his play style..
 
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Jugoken

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Dr.Mario is viable, we just don't know it yet. I've seen some players do some crazy reads with him on Glory. Maybe your the chosen one that will figure out how to body everyone on as well. Lucina is more viable than we think too!!
 

Stormfury12

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I agree. I feel like to many people harp on certain characters too early. I feel like Dr.Mario, DK, Ganon, and Lucina are all pretty underestimated...
 

Xavix

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Nothing should bring you down about your favorite character, its YOUR favorite character. I have found a competitive viability with 99% of the roster across games (sorry pichu, I just couldn't), and I use megaman, a character I see as vastly underrated in the smash community, so just go with what you like!
 

TTTTTsd

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I WOULD advocate a switch to Mario if you truly want to win tournaments, but...

in the end, it's about you as a player. Mario and Dr. Mario are very functionally different and if you want to play either at a tournament level it's important to know this. Mario is outright better (customs make it fairly comparable however!) and if you want to play strictly on a win basis you should go with him, OR you should play Dr. Mario and carry a secondary as a panic button.

I use Doc as he's a character I feel clicks with me more than Mario in this game, and that's all personal player to game relation that I have. I play Doc and I have higher tiered secondaries that I also play regularly in case I need to step it up. That's how I want to win and that's how I work as a player. Everyone's different, after all.

It's up to YOU as a player. Honestly you can learn a lot by playing a lower tiered character first and then moving up to a higher tiered one, but if you're serious right now, until this is a customs metagame, I'd say go with Mario or play both him and Doc or something. The minute customs are on though you can probably run with Doc on his own because he becomes actually really damn good with Fast Capsule and Vanilla Nado + Breezy Sheet.

Take this as advice from a Doc main, it's not an easy life and without customs it's not a smooth ride, but it's how I want to do things.

P.S. On a cliff note you could always play Doc in doubles as he is legitimately very good there, customs or otherwise. His D-Throw is very doubles friendly as it bounces people at the legendary 80 degree angle making it really efficient for team followups, and a good partner can cover his weak spots.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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I dislike this topic for one reason: A lot of people are quick in regards to giving him their opinions on how he should reach his goal, but nobody is really giving their opinions on how he could do better with the character that he likes.


Down Throw -> Up B is great for piling on damage (12%) whenever the opponent has too much damage that you can't follow up with an Up Air. You can also mix up your options after a down throw by turning around before jumping, which would cause Dr. Mario's Up Air to send the opponent behind him, which makes it possible to follow up with a Back Air. You can also use Down B instead, which isn't a combo, but it is good for catching airdodges and the last hit has a surprising amount of knockback at the end of it which is useful for sending the opponent offstage. Down B is also surprisingly good at edgeguarding too, especially against opponents who try to recover high, but it takes practice to master as you have to be really careful off of the stage with Doc, and burning your Down B means that you are burning his recovery. So use it wisely. Otherwise Back Air is the to-go option for edgeguarding because of its speed, damage, and knockback.

Doc's Down Tilt, like Mario's, is good for frame traps at lower percentages. So you could do Down Tilt -> Grab when you feel as though the opponent won't be able to react to it. At mid percents, Down Tilt -> Up Tilt is a combo that puts your opponent into the air (for aerial followups), though there is a better combo which I feel as though is overlooked by people. Down Tilt -> Up B is a true combo at low-mid percents which, when you sweetspot the Up B, does 19-21% damage. It is also safe, because you can turn the Up B around during the hitstun of the attack and fly in the opposite direction. It does reset the match to neutral however, but free damage is free damage I say. Also, Doc (like Mario) has the 2nd fastest Down Smash in the game, which is very useful for sending the opponent offstage and/or KOing them at high percents. And his Up Smash, while only being the 5th fastest Up Smash, makes Dr. Mario's head invincible (also like Mario), making it great as an anti-air.


That's pretty much all I know though, as I don't main Doc (I main Mario). But hopefully, this helps you out @shadowrohas. Always remember to keep practicing, learning, experimenting, and most importantly adapting. There's probably a lot of things about Doc I don't even know about, that you could end up learning. Be sure to check out the Doctor Mario section on the character boards if you wish to learn more:

http://smashboards.com/forums/dr-mario.502/

Lastly, I highly recommend that you try out the entire roster of characters, and see which other characters could also suit you. What I did was that I went through all 48 characters (51 if you count Miis), and gave them a rating of 1 to 5 based upon how much I liked them. You don't have to do the same thing I did, but who knows? You may end up finding someone that you like that you might've not even considered playing before. Plus, if you plan on playing competitively, it is always a good thing to have multiple characters at your disposal instead of just one, as different characters do better or worse in certain matchups in comparison to other characters. And always be sure to check the character boards, competitive discussion board, and youtube/etc for tips and tricks at how to improve at Smash Bros:

http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-character-discussion.291/
http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-competitive-discussion.509/ (well you already found out how to get here lol)


Good luck! :)
 
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Twixist

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I agree. I feel like to many people harp on certain characters too early. I feel like Dr.Mario, DK, Ganon, and Lucina are all pretty underestimated...
I agree with you on DK, but thats about it. DK is surprisingly good and definitely not near bottom tier. Marth is my favorite character out of any smash and I really gave him (and Lucina) a chance. Marth is not great in this game. Everything about him got nerfed. Imo he got nerfed more that MK. Lucina just feels like a worse Marth.

As for Dr. Mario, someone is gonna have to show me his potential, but as of now he is just a much worse version of Mario. When I compare him to most of the roster I start to realize that he doesn't have alot going for him.

Now Ganon, I put some hours into him (mostly among friends and family, but still..) and I can't really find anything that would stop him from being bottom tier. Sure I win alot with him, but on a high competitive level, what does he have? All his moves are tremendously slow/ laggy, he is heavy and easily comboed, and his recovery is poor/ easily gimped. His least punishable moves in order are Jab, B-air, maybe D-tilt, and I think D-air can auto cancel. What does he have that makes him good, and list some characters that are much worse than Ganon.
 

PixelPerfect

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I'd recommend sticking with Doc if you prefer his D-air and his down b. If you don't I'd switch to regular Mario. Although nothing is set in stone at the time so go try him out at a tourney or online, though I would recommend a secondary to cover up for his bad match-ups.
 

Saturn_

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I say the same thing about every fighting game: If you have a character you want to play, just GRIND on that guy for a few weeks, just immerse yourself in that character and don't play anyone else. After a week, or a few weeks, pick up a different character and grind them for a day or two. You'll quickly come to the conclusion of who you like better. If you grind Dr. Mario for a month, then pick up Mario and after a day or two are saying "Wow, I think regular Mario is better" you won't have to have any doubt, because you'll be so familiar with Doc that you'll recognize the differences and be able to trust your own opinion.
 

Emuser012

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As a Meta Knight main, I had the same dilemma when I concluded that he is my favorite character to play in this game. I played pretty much only Meta for a few weeks and got top 16 out of 64 in two tournies and 3rd in a 24 man tourney. I've lost quite a number of games because of issues the character has, but I've learned my mistakes since those defeats and still press forward.

He might not be the most viable character by a long shot, but I have an irrational love and obsession for the character much like you do with Doc. If you think about playing Doc when trying other characters out, or even when you're out and about not playing Sm4sh, you may understand a desire that fuels your fire to play a character most people ignore.

It's scary not staying on characters that have proven tourney results, but the amount of respect you earn getting repeated results in tourneys with an uncommon character you love is kind of nice. A few people ask me how MK is and why I play him, it comes down to that fact that he is the most fun for me to play, regardless of how much potential people see in him or how I do in tourneys.

Winning a tournament with the little guy would be amazing, but I'm not at that level to do that yet. More respect to you if you stick with Doc, it will be a hard road to follow. Don't give up, the satisfaction you will get winning with an uncommon character is worth it.
 
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