I feel guilty for using my Mario in For Glory

[BSP]

Isn't he generally considered worse than Mario? Or have people found something? Given that I main him I'm kinda curious if this could be something interesting.

In the competitive expectations thread, I don't think I've seen anyone say Doc is better. Of course, not everyone mains Mario/Doc so you have to take it with a grain of salt. I might bring it up in the thread.

I know that for me, I value Mario's mobility more than Doc's power, and, believe it or not, I miss FLUDD any time I go Doc.

 

[SmokeOut]

In the competitive expectations thread, I don't think I've seen anyone say Doc is better. Of course, not everyone mains Mario/Doc so you have to take it with a grain of salt. I might bring it up in the thread.

I know that for me, I value Mario's mobility more than Doc's power, and, believe it or not, I miss FLUDD any time I go Doc.

I agree, every time I go Doc then switch back to Mario, he just feels so mobile and fluid in comparison. Doc's increase in power just isn't enough to make a difference compared to Mario's mobility IMO.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Adversely I'm the opposite, but I play chars like Ganondorf who aren't mobile to begin with. I just like Doc's smaller but more mixup oriented string game, I like his solid defensive position, and I like his odds on a stage like Battlefield as opposed to FD.

It's a matter of preference and I like how it really highlights that these characters are very different.

 

[SmokeOut]

Adversely I'm the opposite, but I play chars like Ganondorf who aren't mobile to begin with. I just like Doc's smaller but more mixup oriented string game, I like his solid defensive position, and I like his odds on a stage like Battlefield as opposed to FD.

It's a matter of preference and I like how it really highlights that these characters are very different.

Agreed, not like Melee where Doc was basically just a superior Mario. They actually feel less like clones and more like their own characters in this game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Agreed, not like Melee where Doc was basically just a superior Mario. They actually feel less like clones and more like their own characters in this game.

"Superior" in this case being mostly "having a couple of traits that space
animals hate".

 

[SmokeOut]

"Superior" in this case being mostly "having a couple of traits that space
animals hate".

True, but that's what mattered in Melee. Even if it didn't there were very few things Mario had over Doc. His recovery was better because of his cape. What else? He sure wasn't faster and if he was it was no where near to the extent that he is in this game. They just didn't feel that different and Doc had more KO options and more tools all around.

 

[A2ZOMG]

True, but that's what mattered in Melee. Even if it didn't there were very few things Mario had over Doc. His recovery was better because of his cape. What else? He sure wasn't faster and if he was it was no where near to the extent that he is in this game. They just didn't feel that different and Doc had more KO options and more tools all around.

Melee Mario did noticeably better against Marth, Peach, and Sheik, and did a much better job of invalidating bad characters with superior chaingrabs. But yeah, when the meta is space animals, that kinda doesn't matter quite as much.

Like, Mario has a bunch of things that are noticeably safer than Doc's. For one, his Jab combo is safe on crouch cancels letting you pressure things favorably in more situations. Two, his chaingrabs are better and last longer which gives Mario legitimate 0 deaths on more characters on FD. Three, Mario's F-smash is MAD LEGIT and actually lets Mario compete in spacing wars and actually is somewhat realistic to combo into, while Doc's is kinda pointless and you'll virtually never combo it on anyone that DIs well (but he gets D-throw D-smash on space animals...so that hardly matters). Finally Mario's D-throw/U-throw N-air combo is not dependent on DI for getting people offstage or KOs, and while Doc can get D-throw F-air on some matchups, in various others it's not reliable depending on DI or it only works well at specific percent ranges.

If the best characters in the game weren't Falco and Fox, Mario would easily be superior to Doc overall because he actually has more matchups he CLEARLY does well in because of both superior control options and better character specific 0-deaths, while Doc in contrast doesn't outright win as many matchups hard and only is relevant by being better (but still not winning) against space animals.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Do note that Doc also had better air speed than Mario and more reliable finishers to boot, along with a better cape for gimping (greater vertical hitbox) and the semi-spike Bair that was incredibly scary. Pills were amazing and beefy with good control potential, 8% damage and hitstun that led to combos, and moved at a more favorable velocity and angle than fireballs. Plus the better MUs against space animals and higher tiers in general, led to Mario falling lower than him.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Melee Mario did noticeably better against Marth, Peach, and Sheik, and did a much better job of invalidating bad characters with superior chaingrabs. But yeah, when the meta is space animals, that kinda doesn't matter quite as much.

Like, Mario has a bunch of things that are noticeably safer than Doc's. For one, his Jab combo is safe on crouch cancels letting you pressure things favorably in more situations. Two, his chaingrabs are better and last longer which gives Mario legitimate 0 deaths on more characters on FD. Three, Mario's F-smash is MAD LEGIT and actually lets Mario compete in spacing wars and actually is somewhat realistic to combo into, while Doc's is kinda pointless and you'll virtually never combo it on anyone that DIs well (but he gets D-throw D-smash on space animals...so that hardly matters). Finally Mario's D-throw/U-throw N-air combo is not dependent on DI for getting people offstage or KOs, and while Doc can get D-throw F-air on some matchups, in various others it's not reliable depending on DI or it only works well at specific percent ranges.

If the best characters in the game weren't Falco and Fox, Mario would easily be superior to Doc overall because he actually has more matchups he CLEARLY does well in because of both superior control options and better character specific 0-deaths, while Doc in contrast doesn't outright win as many matchups hard and only is relevant by being better (but still not winning) against space animals.

Mario has above average combo abilities, edgeguarding, recovery, had bad range in nearly every attack, a weak projectile, and had a ton of KOing problems. The only great things I can think that Mario has are his chain grabbing abilities.

Doc has nearly the same combo game, a far better edgeguard game, worse recovery and range, a far better projectile, far more KOing options and a decrnt chain grab game.

I don't know, Doctor Mario IMO would still be better than Mario even without spacies.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario has above average combo abilities, edgeguarding, recovery, had bad range in nearly every attack, a weak projectile, and had a ton of KOing problems. The only great things I can think that Mario has are his chain grabbing abilities.

Doc has nearly the same combo game, a far better edgeguard game, worse recovery and range, a far better projectile, far more KOing options and a decrnt chain grab game.

I don't know, Doctor Mario IMO would still be better than Mario even without spacies.

Doc realistically doesn't do better in any matchups than Mario except like...Ganondorf, Samus, Fox, and Falco. Those are like the only matchups where either his better B-air or stronger F-air/D-smash actually do anything useful. Nobody cares about Pills or Fireballs if you have any idea how to powershield. Unless your name is Luigi, in which case Mario's Fireballs actually make that matchup favorable for him, while Doc outright loses it.

Basically everyone else gets gimped just as easily by Mario's B-air, and then they also have to get past Mario's MUCH superior F-smash and chaingrabbing. As a result:

Mario does better against Marth, Peach, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Luigi, and the bottom half of the cast in Melee. And Mario also beats Doc for that matter because Doc literally doesn't have an answer to F-smash and U-tilt.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Doc realistically doesn't do better in any matchups than Mario except like...Ganondorf, Samus, Fox, and Falco. Those are like the only matchups where either his better B-air or stronger F-air/D-smash actually do anything useful. Nobody cares about Pills or Fireballs if you have any idea how to powershield. Unless your name is Luigi, in which case Mario's Fireballs actually make that matchup favorable for him, while Doc outright loses it.

Basically everyone else gets gimped just as easily by Mario's B-air, and then they also have to get past Mario's MUCH superior F-smash and chaingrabbing. As a result:

Mario does better against Marth, Peach, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Luigi, and the bottom half of the cast in Melee. And Mario also beats Doc for that matter because Doc literally doesn't have an answer to F-smash and U-tilt.

If all of that is true, then why is Doc 5 spaces above Mario in the tier list? Are Doc's spacies matchups that much better than Mario's, or are Mario's matchups against Marth, Peach, Ice Climber's, Sheiks not even much better to begin with?

 

[A2ZOMG]

If all of that is true, then why is Doc 5 spaces above Mario in the tier list? Are Doc's spacies matchups that much better than Mario's, or are Mario's matchups against Marth, Peach, Ice Climber's, Sheiks not even much better to begin with?

Because the meta is dominated by spacies, and Mario's advantages against Marth, Peach, and Sheik over Doc are pretty minor. Both Doc and Mario get trolled by those characters, just Mario has a better chance of not getting screwed completely.

Both of them technically get bodied by space animals too, just Doc is better at instakilling them with D-smash and Super Sheet while Mario actually has to make extra reads to either gimp them or get them to D-smash/U-smash KO percents. And as I said, this is a space animal meta.

Mario however destroys the Ice Climbers like 65/35. Doc either goes even or loses to them slightly.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Because the meta is dominated by spacies, and Mario's advantages against Marth, Peach, and Sheik over Doc are pretty minor. Both Doc and Mario get trolled by those characters, just Mario has a better chance of not getting screwed completely.

Both of them technically get bodied by space animals too, just Doc is better at instakilling them with D-smash and Super Sheet while Mario actually has to make extra reads to either gimp them or get them to D-smash/U-smash KO percents. And as I said, this is a space animal meta.

Mario however destroys the Ice Climbers like 65/35. Doc either goes even or loses to them slightly.

Ah, I see.

What makes Mario 65/35 and Doc nearly losing the IC's MU?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ah, I see.

What makes Mario 65/35 and Doc nearly losing the IC's MU?

Better Jab combo and F-smash. Simple. The ICs can't CC punish Mario, and Mario can constantly space F-smash on them and virtually never get hit while easily killing Nana. Doc does not have nearly the same level of safety in this matchup.

Both can separate the ICs with B-throw, but the ICs do not have to give Doc nearly the same amount of respect in neutral.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Better Jab combo and F-smash. Simple. The ICs can't CC punish Mario, and Mario can constantly space F-smash on them and virtually never get hit while easily killing Nana. Doc does not have nearly the same level of safety in this matchup.

Both can separate the ICs with B-throw, but the ICs do not have to give Doc nearly the same amount of respect in neutral.

Is it good to have Doctor Mario mains to have Mario as a secondary for all of Mario's advantageous MUs if Doc mains don't want to have a high tier for a secondary?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is it good to have Doctor Mario mains to have Mario as a secondary for all of Mario's advantageous MUs if Doc mains don't want to have a high tier for a secondary?

Yes.

Keeping in mind both characters suck. Just Mario gets to be more braindead than Doc once you learn his few cheap exploits that prevent him from having to worry about random low tiers, as well as his superior F-smash and Jab combo actually giving him control options that Doc just simply can't replicate period. Doc has to work at least moderately hard in virtually ALL his matchups, while Mario in contrast has some matchups that are just simply drop dead easy for him.

 

[Judo777]

Mario is really bad, and For Glory so I've heard is pretty much a joke at this instant while rankings aren't well established and worldwide there aren't that many people who have strong fighting game fundamentals.

To repeat, Mario is one of the worst characters in the game, and you shouldn't feel bad using him. Most of his nonsense is easily escaped unless you play like...Ganon or Ike. He doesn't do much damage per hit, he doesn't kill early, and his recovery is bad. And most characters are stronger than him in midrange.

Easily a bottom 5 character in this game. Mario was more nerfed than buffed. Lost Jab cancels, recovery got worse, damage per hit was nerfed without making his combo game significantly more reliable. The only thing redeeming him is that most characters in this game were nerfed too. Just Mario in particular actually lost options that were important to his game without gaining much in return.

Nah Mario received several buffs. I'm pretty sure his air speed and even ground speed got increased (at least with respect to the rest of the cast if not just base line). His crap actually combos unlike brawl where he had utilts from like 0-30 and that was it.
Fludd is about 5 times better at doing its job. His fair has a much nicer hitbox that is more lenient on the sweet spot, and most importantly phantom lag (or RCO lag) is gone. Like literally Marios primary weaknesses in Brawl were all addressed in some manner in this game. His main weaknesses were low range and priority (compensated by a movement speed increase, that's how Wario dealt with the same weakness), low reward from punishes (helped a little by more combo-ability, although still probably his weakest point), short range recovery (helped some by ledge hogging being non-existent), and most importantly was by FAR the most susceptible to RCO lag (removed).

I seriously don't think he is bottom 5. He may not be spectacular, but hes not the way you portray him, and he was almost completely buffed from Brawl. The only thing he lost were jab cancels (which everyone lost) and slightly more lag on fire balls (btw most brawl characters got increased lag on projectiles that were used in that manner ie Pika and Falco)

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Yes.

Keeping in mind both characters suck. Just Mario gets to be more braindead than Doc once you learn his few cheap exploits that prevent him from having to worry about random low tiers, as well as his superior F-smash and Jab combo actually giving him control options that Doc just simply can't replicate period. Doc has to work at least moderately hard in virtually ALL his matchups, while Mario in contrast has some matchups that are just simply drop dead easy for him.

Okay. Thanks for taking the time to answer some of my questions. I only started playing competitive and I'm still quite the scrub, but I'm getting better.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah Mario received several buffs. I'm pretty sure his air speed and even ground speed got increased (at least with respect to the rest of the cast if not just base line). His crap actually combos unlike brawl where he had utilts from like 0-30 and that was it.
Fludd is about 5 times better at doing its job. His fair has a much nicer hitbox that is more lenient on the sweet spot, and most importantly phantom lag (or RCO lag) is gone. Like literally Marios primary weaknesses in Brawl were all addressed in some manner in this game. His main weaknesses were low range and priority (compensated by a movement speed increase, that's how Wario dealt with the same weakness), low reward from punishes (helped a little by more combo-ability, although still probably his weakest point), short range recovery (helped some by ledge hogging being non-existent), and most importantly was by FAR the most susceptible to RCO lag (removed).

I seriously don't think he is bottom 5. He may not be spectacular, but hes not the way you portray him, and he was almost completely buffed from Brawl. The only thing he lost were jab cancels (which everyone lost) and slightly more lag on fire balls (btw most brawl characters got increased lag on projectiles that were used in that manner ie Pika and Falco)

And...someone else did no research on the character.

Mario's stuff combos? Mario only did 11% there before being interrupted. Keep in mind U-air only does 7% in this game, as opposed to 11%. Brawl Mario in one read, yeah. He could do about 30% or so. Smash 4 Mario struggles to break 20% with a single read.

By the way, Brawl Mario's combos were good. They required reads, but you could put people at around 64% easily if you got two reads from D-throw (D-throw -> U-airx2 -> D-throw -> turnaround U-air -> B-air -> D-smash does ~68 damage if my math is right). Smash 4 Mario needs no less than three reads just to barely reach 50% in this game.

Priority? Virtually everyone still outranges Mario. And Mario's recovery got NERFED because Cape Stalling is nowhere nearly as good in Smash 4 as it was previously.

So like, Smash 4 Mario. He's crap at winning trades. His combo game is still unreliable and requires hard reads. He still sucks at getting KOs because none of his aerials KO meaning he needs to land Smashes or get lucky FLUDD/Cape gimps. ESPECIALLY since Mario does not have Jab canceling to set up his ground game anymore...yeah.

Character is weaker than he's ever been in the Smash series. The only thing that saves him is that the top tier is not nearly as ludicriously broken as it was in previous games, and Mario can viably fight Rosalina, who is arguably the best character in the game.

also smh, Rosalina and Yoshi both get Jab cancel U-smash in this game....like...seriously.

Okay. Thanks for taking the time to answer some of my questions. I only started playing competitive and I'm still quite the scrub, but I'm getting better.

Eh, I know not everyone agrees with me. But then again, not many people play Mario in Melee these days, and most people try to play him rushdown in every matchup when there's other matchups like Luigi and Ice Climbers which Mario dominates by camping.

 

[BSP]

Mario got two buffs: Dtilt and FLUDD.

RCO being gone is nice too, but everyone got that. I don't think Mario will be able to hang with the good characters consistently in the future unless he gets some tweaks.

 

[Judo777]

And...someone else did no research on the character.

Mario's stuff combos? Mario only did 11% there before being interrupted. Keep in mind U-air only does 7% in this game, as opposed to 11%. Brawl Mario in one read, yeah. He could do about 30% or so. Smash 4 Mario struggles to break 20% with a single read.

By the way, Brawl Mario's combos were good. They required reads, but you could put people at around 64% easily if you got two reads from D-throw (D-throw -> U-airx2 -> D-throw -> turnaround U-air -> B-air -> D-smash does ~68 damage if my math is right). Smash 4 Mario needs no less than three reads just to barely reach 50% in this game.

Priority? Virtually everyone still outranges Mario. And Mario's recovery got NERFED because Cape Stalling is nowhere nearly as good in Smash 4 as it was previously.

So like, Smash 4 Mario. He's crap at winning trades. His combo game is still unreliable and requires hard reads. He still sucks at getting KOs because none of his aerials KO meaning he needs to land Smashes or get lucky FLUDD/Cape gimps. ESPECIALLY since Mario does not have Jab canceling to set up his ground game anymore...yeah.

Character is weaker than he's ever been in the Smash series. The only thing that saves him is that the top tier is not nearly as ludicriously broken as it was in previous games, and Mario can viably fight Rosalina, who is arguably the best character in the game.

also smh, Rosalina and Yoshi both get Jab cancel U-smash in this game....like...seriously.

Eh, I know not everyone agrees with me. But then again, not many people play Mario in Melee these days, and most people try to play him rushdown in every matchup when there's other matchups like Luigi and Ice Climbers which Mario dominates by camping.

Did you even read my post? His priority did NOT get buffed but his speed DID. And speed compensates for range and priority. Wario in brawl has garbage range and priority (way worse than Marios) but he is able to deal with these short comings by having strong mobility. You know who else had garbage priority? Melee Falcon, same scenario. SO he is compensated there.

YES his recovery is worse baseline, BUT due to the absence of ledge hogging, Marios short recovery DOESN'T MATTER as much. In brawl being able to just barely reach the ledge, completely kills you, you had to be able to make it decently past the ledge. In this game it seems much more valuable to be difficult to challenge while going for the ledge (which is why Sheiks recovery is outstanding now), which Marios up b is pretty hard to challenge (please do not retort by saying its beatable, I know it is, but its not EASY to beat, a frame 3 b move is hard to deal with). And the primary function of cape stalling in brawl was to wait out invincibility at the ledge so that he couldn't be ledge hogged (again non-existent now).

A combo, that requires reads.... is not a combo, so no Mario's comboability is NOT better in Brawl than it is now.. Because you had to read people after you started, which means players will not take that damage. Mariohad almost NO combos in Brawl..... at all. Like literally he had like utilts and that was it. I don't even think he could combo anything off of his grab guaranteed.

And yes you have illustrated that his damage per hit is less. I don't think that is a very big deal when you factor in the buffs he has received to compensate. Losing guarenteed damage at due to doing less damage ( at higher percents when his stuff stops comboing) is way less important than being able to get a hit in the neutral game. Smash is riddled with bad characters that get huge pay out for getting a hit in the neutral game, that simply can't get a hit in the neutral game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Did you even read my post? His priority did NOT get buffed but his speed DID. And speed compensates for range and priority. Wario in brawl has garbage range and priority (way worse than Marios) but he is able to deal with these short comings by having strong mobility. You know who else had garbage priority? Melee Falcon, same scenario. SO he is compensated there.

YES his recovery is worse baseline, BUT due to the absence of ledge hogging, Marios short recovery DOESN'T MATTER as much. In brawl being able to just barely reach the ledge, completely kills you, you had to be able to make it decently past the ledge. In this game it seems much more valuable to be difficult to challenge while going for the ledge (which is why Sheiks recovery is outstanding now), which Marios up b is pretty hard to challenge (please do not retort by saying its beatable, I know it is, but its not EASY to beat, a frame 3 b move is hard to deal with). And the primary function of cape stalling in brawl was to wait out invincibility at the ledge so that he couldn't be ledge hogged (again non-existent now).

A combo, that requires reads.... is not a combo, so no Mario's comboability is NOT better in Brawl than it is now.. Because you had to read people after you started, which means players will not take that damage. Mariohad almost NO combos in Brawl..... at all. Like literally he had like utilts and that was it. I don't even think he could combo anything off of his grab guaranteed.

And yes you have illustrated that his damage per hit is less. I don't think that is a very big deal when you factor in the buffs he has received to compensate. Losing guarenteed damage at due to doing less damage ( at higher percents when his stuff stops comboing) is way less important than being able to get a hit in the neutral game. Smash is riddled with bad characters that get huge pay out for getting a hit in the neutral game, that simply can't get a hit in the neutral game.

Wario also was countered by Marth and Captain Falcon in Brawl due to his short range. HE LOST TO CAPTAIN FALCON LEGITIMATELY.

Also Melee Falcon's priority isn't completely terrible. He has moves like N-air and B-air and U-air which all have very good hitboxes.

Mario might run slightly faster than he did before, but his mobility is definitely not amazing enough to force people to respect him. Mario has to be extremely respectful of shieldgrabs when pressuring his opponent due to his short range because he does not have the mobility to always safely crossover his opponent and force them to guess his positioning.

I don't think you understand how Mario's recovery worked in the first place. Cape Stalling in previous games was the reason you had a chance of recovering at all, because it allowed you to fake out edge guard attempts. Mario's recovery is onetracked, and it is not hard to put either a disjointed or lingering hibox in front of Mario to intercept him, and once you intercept Mario out of his midair jump, he's not making it back. You can't avoid this type of edgeguard UNLESS you have Cape stalling to fake out edgeguard attempts, which requires you to run Gust Cape.

Mario actually had about the same number of combos in Brawl that he did in Smash 4, just most of them did significantly more damage in Brawl because all of Mario's attacks, especially U-air did more damage. You need reads to connect the necessary hits to start Mario's combos in both games, just in Brawl, you actually get good reward for it, while your reward in Smash 4 is pathetic. Mario in Brawl also has Jab cancel combos on most of the cast, a huge advantage in confirming grabs and D-smashes for potential KOs.

And Mario is terrible at getting hits in neutral safely. And not only is he terrible at doing this, he can't afford to trade hits because his damage per hit is terrible.

 

[Judo777]

Wario also was countered by Marth and Captain Falcon in Brawl due to his short range. HE LOST TO CAPTAIN FALCON LEGITIMATELY.

Also Melee Falcon's priority isn't completely terrible. He has moves like N-air and B-air and U-air which all have very good hitboxes.

Mario might run slightly faster than he did before, but his mobility is definitely not amazing enough to force people to respect him. Mario has to be extremely respectful of shieldgrabs when pressuring his opponent due to his short range because he does not have the mobility to always safely crossover his opponent and force them to guess his positioning.

I don't think you understand how Mario's recovery worked in the first place. Cape Stalling in previous games was the reason you had a chance of recovering at all, because it allowed you to fake out edge guard attempts. Mario's recovery is onetracked, and it is not hard to put either a disjointed or lingering hibox in front of Mario to intercept him, and once you intercept Mario out of his midair jump, he's not making it back. You can't avoid this type of edgeguard UNLESS you have Cape stalling to fake out edgeguard attempts, which requires you to run Gust Cape.

Mario actually had about the same number of combos in Brawl that he did in Smash 4, just most of them did significantly more damage in Brawl because all of Mario's attacks, especially U-air did more damage. You need reads to connect the necessary hits to start Mario's combos in both games, just in Brawl, you actually get good reward for it, while your reward in Smash 4 is pathetic.

And Mario is terrible at getting hits in neutral safely. And not only is he terrible at doing this, he can't afford to trade hits because his damage per hit is terrible.

You named bad MU's but every high tier character had them (except MK). Btw Wario didn't actually lose to Falcon, Warios just lost to Ally who was at the time the best player in the world. Don't get me wrong the MU was pretty close, but none of that matters Wario was still an amazing character that was completely tournament viable (I would say top tier as i never counts MKs tier).

Mario is not easily shield grabbed compared to most of the cast in this game. Excluding retreating bair, and cross up nair being completely safe due to geometry of where he is. Mario has landing lag frame data that rivals Zss and Sheik (3 aerials with 12 frames of landing lag is awesome, sheik is 10 10 12 and zss is 9 11 12 so thats pretty impressive).

I don't think the loss of cape stalling will be as detrimental as you think. Mario wasn't allowed to do the extreme edge guard attempt avoidance measures thats some could simply due to not being able to make it back from getting ledge hogged. IN this game it is perfectly OK to FF airdodge while recovering if they go out to aerial you because recovering low doesn't get you ledge hogged and instantly killed. Also not every character has a disjointed aerial they can just throw at the ledge, and even if they do, even less have disjoints that straight up kill you for taking. So if you have to eat a super obvious lingering disjoint, and DI it to recover, so be it, that situation only occurs if you are forced to recover at max range anyway (situation that was auto stock in previous games for most characters).

What combos did Mario have in brawl? I only know of utilts, im pretty sure uairs were escapable with proper DI , and dthrow didn't combo in to crap. I am aware of the damage reduction tho.

Also as mentioned before I think Mario is not bad at getting hits in neutral, the mobility does help as I said, and the solid landing frame data helps alot as well. Also Mario cna afford to trade hits more than you might think, its not always aboutthe damage you do but also about the kill power. Mario actually has some decent kill power in this game. Killing at 120 is pretty good in this game and he has 3 decent frame data smashes. Killng people at 110 with a solid fsmash read is pretty great.(my average kill percentage with sheik right now is about 180)

 

[A2ZOMG]

You named bad MU's but every high tier character had them (except MK). Btw Wario didn't actually lose to Falcon, Warios just lost to Ally who was at the time the best player in the world. Don't get me wrong the MU was pretty close, but none of that matters Wario was still an amazing character that was completely tournament viable (I would say top tier as i never counts MKs tier).

Mario is not easily shield grabbed compared to most of the cast in this game. Excluding retreating bair, and cross up nair being completely safe due to geometry of where he is. Mario has landing lag frame data that rivals Zss and Sheik (3 aerials with 12 frames of landing lag is awesome, sheik is 10 10 12 and zss is 9 11 12 so thats pretty impressive).

I don't think the loss of cape stalling will be as detrimental as you think. Mario wasn't allowed to do the extreme edge guard attempt avoidance measures thats some could simply due to not being able to make it back from getting ledge hogged. IN this game it is perfectly OK to FF airdodge while recovering if they go out to aerial you because recovering low doesn't get you ledge hogged and instantly killed. Also not every character has a disjointed aerial they can just throw at the ledge, and even if they do, even less have disjoints that straight up kill you for taking. So if you have to eat a super obvious lingering disjoint, and DI it to recover, so be it, that situation only occurs if you are forced to recover at max range anyway (situation that was auto stock in previous games for most characters).

What combos did Mario have in brawl? I only know of utilts, im pretty sure uairs were escapable with proper DI , and dthrow didn't combo in to crap. I am aware of the damage reduction tho.

Also as mentioned before I think Mario is not bad at getting hits in neutral, the mobility does help as I said, and the solid landing frame data helps alot as well. Also Mario cna afford to trade hits more than you might think, its not always aboutthe damage you do but also about the kill power. Mario actually has some decent kill power in this game. Killing at 120 is pretty good in this game and he has 3 decent frame data smashes. Killng people at 110 with a solid fsmash read is pretty great.(my average kill percentage with sheik right now is about 180)

So your argument that Falcon doesn't beat Wario is just because you think Ally is somehow not relevant to the argument. He did get to play top level Wario players like Gluttony, and he only lost this match simply because he didn't ever autojab to punish spotdodge, which would have saved him numerous times while giving him control in neutral. Having poor range is a legitimate problem in neutral. Wario to a large extent got by mostly because of having better reward than most characters. But Falcon has slight advantage against Wario in Brawl, by getting about equal reward but having superior tools for controlling neutral.

Mario has low landing lag, but that doesn't matter much when your opponent has little reason to respect your attacks. That is why Captain Falcon was bad in Brawl, except when playing against characters like Wario who he actually outspaces.

You really are trying to say Cape Stalling isn't hugely detrimental still. Okay, let's put it this way. How the hell does Mario get out of juggles against GOOD PLAYERS?

How the hell are you going to get past Marth's or Ganondorf's edgeguarding as you're descending when their aerials still are able to frame trap your airdodge?

The answer to these questions is rhetorical and the same. You don't. And this is not arguable. Mario NEEDS Cape stalling to properly outplay and outposition people in trap scenarios. Otherwise he's just an immobile character that has no aerials that need to be respected.

Mario's combos? I can give you a very comprehensive list of those. And you probably will not have guessed several of them.

U-tilt chains (you need to get fastfalling characters to about 9% before they combo)
U-air/N-air/B-air -> U-tilt/D-smash/Up-B/U-smash
D-throw -> U-air/U-smash (can be avoided by airdodging or attacking, cannot be jumped out of. Use U-throw on Marth and Falco instead at 0)
(after D-throw) U-air -> U-air/N-air/B-air -> D-smash/F-smash/U-smash
F-throw -> F-smash on Fox. If F-throw is completely stale, you technically can chaingrab him.
Jab2 -> F-tilt/D-tilt/U-tilt/D-smash on over half the cast (avoidable by jumping sometimes)
Jab1+2 -> reverse U-smash on Lucario, Peach, and Jigglypuff
Landing hit D-air -> D-smash/Jab/F-tilt/Up-B
Fireball -> F-smash (requires VERY precise spacing)
Late DA -> U-smash/N-air/U-air

In Smash 4, I don't have the game on hand to test things, but Mario's combo game didn't change much from Brawl from what I've seen, except it's just a lot less rewarding. And he also lost things like Late DA -> move and Jab canceling and he probably also lost legitimate Fireball combos.

And the thing you're missing isn't about whether or not Mario can get hits in neutral. The point is the RISK of him doing so almost never justifies the reward.

Mario has to hard read you to barely surpass 20% in a string. Ganondorf gets one read with F-smash in footsies and does 25%. You know something is very wrong when Mario has to work harder than other characters for less damage.

 

[smashbroskilla]

It's on page 3 and OP still hasn't posted a screen of his overpowered mario win/loss ratio yet

 

[Judo777]

So your argument that Falcon doesn't beat Wario is just because you think Ally is somehow not relevant to the argument. He did get to play top level Wario players like Gluttony, and he only lost this match simply because he didn't ever autojab to punish spotdodge, which would have saved him numerous times while giving him control in neutral. Having poor range is a legitimate problem in neutral. Wario to a large extent got by mostly because of having better reward than most characters. But Falcon has slight advantage against Wario in Brawl, by getting about equal reward but having superior tools for controlling neutral.

Mario has low landing lag, but that doesn't matter much when your opponent has little reason to respect your attacks. That is why Captain Falcon was bad in Brawl, except when playing against characters like Wario who he actually outspaces.

You really are trying to say Cape Stalling isn't hugely detrimental still. Okay, let's put it this way. How the hell does Mario get out of juggles against GOOD PLAYERS?

How the hell are you going to get past Marth's or Ganondorf's edgeguarding as you're descending when their aerials still are able to frame trap your airdodge?

The answer to these questions is rhetorical and the same. You don't. And this is not arguable. Mario NEEDS Cape stalling to properly outplay and outposition people in trap scenarios. Otherwise he's just an immobile character that has no aerials that need to be respected.

Mario's combos? I can give you a very comprehensive list of those. And you probably will not have guessed several of them.



In Smash 4, I don't have the game on hand to test things, but Mario's combo game didn't change much from Brawl from what I've seen, except it's just a lot less rewarding. And he also lost things like Late DA -> move and Jab canceling and he probably also lost legitimate Fireball combos.

And the thing you're missing isn't about whether or not Mario can get hits in neutral. The point is the RISK of him doing so almost never justifies the reward.

Mario has to hard read you to barely surpass 20% in a string. Ganondorf gets one read with F-smash in footsies and does 25%. You know something is very wrong when Mario has to work harder than other characters for less damage.

The Falcon Wario MU doesn't matter. But regardless Ally is not relevant (in my example) because Ally was outplaying the piss out of EVERYONE. Except Gluttony...... who he lost to. He was probably still outplaying him, just not enough. I dont think its even at all (maybe Wario has to play a little differently but I think its not too hard). But again not really important.

And no it was NOT just that he yielded higher reward from punishes, it was thatmobility allows you to get hits on people that outrange you because you can weave around hitboxes. The Wario Luigi MU is a perfect example, Luigis moves beat basically ALL of Warios AND they yield the same reward (Luigi is the Zangief of Brawl he didn't mind trading with Snake Luigi has arguably the most kill power in the game overall). But the MU was still even... because overtime Wario could get around Luigis superior range and priority with his mobility (most peoiple think it was actually in Warios favor not sure if I agree). Mobility IS strength in the neutral game.

Falcons problem in brawl was that he had great mobility, but not if he used any of his remotely useable moves. He had uair, nair, jab and bair. And none of those moves could be used on grounded opponents in manners that weren't ridiculously easy to stuff. Uair and Bair all hand punishable landing lag, jab cant be used out of a run or in the air and nair (his main option) had to be hit with the first hit which game him a super linear approach. His only good moves were aerials and he couldn't use them on grounded opponents well.

Marios moves have hitboxes...... so you have to respect them if he does them when you are aleady in his range for instance, if he already moved there. You can't wall with him, thats not what he does, approach get in range do moves then they have to respect you.

Mario gets out of juggles the same way characters in other games did. Save your jump, mix up your airdodge and attacks, use b reverses, this is old stuff. Lots and Lots of characters get juggled, it doesn't completely destroy them. Use your mobility, its acutally not that bad. He has like 1.5 the airspeed of sheik.

How to avoid ganondorfs uair frame trapping your airdodge, retreat when throws it to avoid it, then whiff punish it with double jump uair. There is not going to be a cookie cutter response for every situation, everything depends. Sometimes the only way to deal with a trap is to avoid it as best you can.and if you can't avoid it, minimize the damage they get off of it.

You didn't try to get on the stage correctly and are going to eat a smash land trap? screw that, up b super early and let them have an uair instead.

Concerning recovery, I have yet to be hit so far offstage that I cannot deviate my recovery at all or i die. Any deviation at all at least makes them guess a little as to how to hit you. If it really becomes an issue do what Olimar players did last game and vector up and toward the whole game.

I don't know what else to tell you. Hes a decent character, he still will have struggles (like every character) and even if he doesn't have brainless options like some top tiers, whatever that's not something any character needs. Just because Mario needed something in brawl doesn't necessarily mean he needs it in this game (Sheik lost her tether from brawl which she NEEDED but he recovery is one of the best in the game even WITHOUT bouncing fish).

Also the combos you listed, all of them that are escapable with airdodge........ dont count because they aren't combos. Most of them were jab cancels (we already knew about and addresses). There was only like 4 on that list that wasn't either of those (or only worked on like 3 people).

 

[GeZ]

Just to kick in some experience with the character, Mario needs the cape for recovery in Melee, Brawl, P:M, and Smash 4. You ask Mario mains from these games "what do I do to recover better?" and the response is "use cape better".

Having it be worse just means that he really doesn't have anything to keep him from getting slapped out of his recovery every time. Just putting a lingering hitbox, or a strong hitbox in his way will guarantee that stock.

Also, Mario's having hitboxes doesn't help him when there's no reason to respect them. I've played a fair amount of Charizard vs Mario, and it's legitimately really, really easy to walk all over Mario once your past his fireball game. You don't have to respect really anything he does because Ftilt will beat most of his approach options, Nair will beat most of his aerials, Dtilt will outspace all of his moves, and so on.

Mario doesn't have a lot that he can do there. The only game he's been really solid in is P:M and that's because they gave him really stupidly good fireballs. Without that tool, or his Melee movement, or at least some Brawl brunt on his hits, he really doesn't have much at all.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario was solid in 64 actually. Good combo game, easy shield breaks, a drill, good fireball (well, for 64 anyways). Throws were all mad strong. Mario's far from mid in 64, he's like...high.

Going into Smash 4 Mario, I'd like to note that UTilt does indeed combo into itself (keep in mind I only tested raw, will do some more) IF you get them into something that isn't light hitstun. So they gotta be at say, a percent like 20-30, Utilt into utilt (on some chars, will test on more) and then you have a free Uair that I doubt vectoring can really do much about due to Mario's jump height. So, to be incredibly fair, UTilt combos do exist, just at specific %s.

Also A2Z you talked about Dair having mainly hand hitboxes so I decided to check it in training mode. SH Dair can hit idling Pika with Mario's legs/torso. So if anyone whiffs Dair like that they're just not doin it right. Tested on Kirby as well, his feet can hit things so I imagine it's like old Tornado hitbox where it's his body + hands.

Also tested the hitstun on Mario's U-Throw since no one uses it and it confuses me, it's a pretty free Uair setup unless a small char vectors and even then I don't think it's anything but fairly guaranteed, even if not a true combo you can space your Uair since they're above you in a bad spot. Oddly UThrow to Uair registered as a combo against Zelda in training so perhaps it's more reliable against lights? After more testing it's registered on like, Link and Zelda and a bunch of others, but not Bowser. Weird. It seems fairly reliable either way at low %s, so I'd recommend using it at earlier percents like 0-25 as opposed to D-Throw.

 

[BSP]

You mentioned 64 Mario and didn't mention his Usmash?

That thing was...ridiculous to say the least.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You mentioned 64 Mario and didn't mention his Usmash?

That thing was...ridiculous to say the least.

LOL Yeah kind of silly of me to forget that. Oh yeah give him that in this game!

Honestly though I think Mario, while underwhelming, would not occupy my label of bottom 5, but I have my reasons and people have theirs, at this point I'm done saying where he should be, just exploring him for more options. I've stopped looking laterally and I'm starting to explore more with U-Throw and % specific tilt setups for more success.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario was solid in 64 actually. Good combo game, easy shield breaks, a drill, good fireball (well, for 64 anyways). Throws were all mad strong. Mario's far from mid in 64, he's like...high.

Going into Smash 4 Mario, I'd like to note that UTilt does indeed combo into itself (keep in mind I only tested raw, will do some more) IF you get them into something that isn't light hitstun. So they gotta be at say, a percent like 20-30, Utilt into utilt (on some chars, will test on more) and then you have a free Uair that I doubt vectoring can really do much about due to Mario's jump height. So, to be incredibly fair, UTilt combos do exist, just at specific %s.

Also A2Z you talked about Dair having mainly hand hitboxes so I decided to check it in training mode. SH Dair can hit idling Pika with Mario's legs/torso. So if anyone whiffs Dair like that they're just not doin it right. Tested on Kirby as well, his feet can hit things so I imagine it's like old Tornado hitbox where it's his body + hands.

Also tested the hitstun on Mario's U-Throw since no one uses it and it confuses me, it's a pretty free Uair setup unless a small char vectors and even then I don't think it's anything but fairly guaranteed, even if not a true combo you can space your Uair since they're above you in a bad spot. Oddly UThrow to Uair registered as a combo against Zelda in training so perhaps it's more reliable against lights? After more testing it's registered on like, Link and Zelda and a bunch of others, but not Bowser. Weird. It seems fairly reliable either way at low %s, so I'd recommend using it at earlier percents like 0-25 as opposed to D-Throw.

In 64, the only "bad" character is Samus. That game is balanced because everything dies in like three attacks and hitboxes and mobility are super homogenized.

And see, the fact Mario's combos are retardedly percent % is a reason he needs tweaks. I hate that in order for me to feel good about playing this character, I have to know all this character specific and gimmicky stuff that isn't immediately intuitive. And in the end in Smash 4, Mario's reward is still pretty bad.

I'll have to see for myself later when I get the game on Mario's D-air. Either way from what I've seen, the move definitely does not connect as reliably as I'd like it to.

U-throw juggle setups are indeed underrated as I predicted, and I appreciate you checking. The next throw we actually should be exploring is F-throw, which has the lowest ending lag of Mario's throws, which in theory gives him the biggest frame advantage out of all his throws. I saw @Fire! doing F-throw Dash Attack on Bowser, and it looked crisp. And in Brawl, I know you could F-throw reverse F-smash Fox at 0%.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well, I tried F-throw stuff but I'm ass tier execution on 3DS so I couldn't get stuff. But oh man did I discover something funny.

Fox and I imagine other fastfallers, beware. Mario can easily combo D-Throw into DSmash (according to training) at anywhere from like, 7% to like 30%. I imagine pivot USmash would work too if you were fast enough, FTilt also works, and it's incredibly smooth into DTilt. Basically Fox is hella free at low %s to Mario's throw, and I imagine he fares even worse at higher %s cause he dun bounce very high.

Actually, ****, across the board D-Throw into DSmash works at specific %s and the damage reward is pretty nice (11% on DSmash alone). If Pivot USmash can work after a good mid % D-Throw we may be in for a fun ride. I tested on Luigi and D-Throw-DSmash worked at like 22% or something. That is REAL free damage off a grab at mid % that puts your enemy a good deal away from you, but not TOO far to remove Mario's pressure due to run speed (I imagine it's partial neutral in Mario's favor). I also think D-Throw Turnaround USmash at low-ish percents might work as said above, 20-30% ish. This D-Throw is bonkers. I think it's important to note how easy this works on Fox at like, any %s below like 40. He's pretty susceptible to this.

 

[meleebrawler]

I. I hate that in order for me to feel good about playing this character, I have to know all this character specific and gimmicky stuff that isn't immediately intuitive.

When you're playing a character that doesn't particularly excel at one thing
nor has any major hang-ups, you realize that they key to victory is in
identifying what your opponents bigger shortcomings are and adapt
to them.

The glass-half-empty people will point out that anything Mario can
do, there is a character that does it better... but Mario is one
of the few that can actually perform multiple strategies, even if
his reward using them isn't as much as using a specialist character.

And A2Z, don't spit out to me that Mario isn't balanced because his
moves aren't very damaging compared to others. Trades in their
pure form (two characters getting hit at the same time) hardly ever
happens in a game where you move so much.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

@Commander Charles I understand perfectly what you're saying, but Mario isn't good in this game. What you're missing is that he's always relied on superior movement to be viable, at least in Melee and P:M, and Smash 4 isn't a game that can provide him those kinds of movement options. He's bad dude. Without the creative movement he's got no range, average combo ability, low kill power, no real ability to combo into that kill, etc.

He's like a much more stilted Melee Mario, which is unfortunate but just how things have turned out.

I know this is extremely outdated by over a year, but even back then, I'd find this hard to believe.

 

[phantom man]

You shouldn't feel guilty of playing a certain character, man! Play who you play. I play Mario also, there is no reason to be guilty.

"JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!"-Shia Labeouf 2015

 

[Jamble]

I just picked up Mario today, literally. 15 minutes into playing him I'm doing way, way better in FG than I have with characters I've used since the release date like Link, Bowser, and Iggy (Iggy's cackle > default semi-mute Bowser jr). He is really great, and is either pretty easy to pick up or I'm a natural. I think what I like the most is his versatility lets you switch tactics and playstyles as smooth as butter mid-match, and I find that really tends to get people on tilt when you can so easily throw out something they don't expect. Really great character to learn the meta with too since he dips his toe in everything a little bit. I love the heck out of this little plumber now.

EDIT: Obligatory ^^^

 

[andyjew]

I haven't played a single game of Smash 4. Take that as you will. You can argue that maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe somehow, I'm missing something after all the hours I've spent searching for Mario footage, videos where I've seen Mario players going for D-throw combos that just simply don't work, get gimped more than other characters because Mario's recovery is still completely awful without his midair jump and especially when you don't have cape stalling to juke edgeguards, and struggles to get KOs more than most characters when none of his aerials are good for KOing and when his U-smash and D-smash are still not extremely powerful.

What I find more annoying are people, including PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS who have made claims that Mario is somehow magically better in this game without providing detailed information or extensive testing to prove it. I despise misleading information. I was by all means excited to hear about an iteration of Mario that finally was good. And then all the observations I've observed is that Mario was nerfed far more than he was buffed, and that his buffs didn't seriously address any of the problems he had.

How do you think I feel, having to learn for myself by sifting past misinformation without having direct access to the game that my favorite character is almost certainly bottom 5?

Worth noting that it's not ALL bad for Mario. There's no Brawl/Melee top tier in this game as far as we have seen. Finally, Mario does have great custom moves including Gust Cape and Explosive Jump Punch, which actually do address important weaknesses. Still, I'm disappointed that a better job wasn't done balancing Mario's normal moves.

sooooo.... how do you feel now that the plumber is top tier! haha in your face!