I feel guilty for using my Mario in For Glory

[A2ZOMG]

Anybody who thinks Mario is bad has obviously never played against a good one. His smash attacks are all extremely quick, and his up smash even has invincibility frames now. If you can't KO somebody at around 100%, then you're using Mario incorrectly.

Mario's Smashes don't kill that early except for F-smash, which is not fast and requires reads to land.

Furthermore his U-smash has always had invincibility frames. U-smash is a good move. It doesn't KO at 100% except against really really lightweight characters. On average, you need to wait til about 120% before it's a good KO move. Same goes for D-smash.

Not only is Mario unable to kill early easily, his damage per hit is really low, his combo game isn't reliable on most of the cast, and his range is still terrible. And he's food for juggles and edgeguards on default settings. Realistically, Mario is one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[SmokeOut]

Mario's Smashes don't kill that early except for F-smash, which is not fast and requires reads to land.

Furthermore his U-smash has always had invincibility frames. U-smash is a good move. It doesn't KO at 100% except against really really lightweight characters. On average, you need to wait til about 120% before it's a good KO move. Same goes for D-smash.

Not only is Mario unable to kill early easily, his damage per hit is really low, his combo game isn't reliable on most of the cast, and his range is still terrible. And he's food for juggles and edgeguards on default settings. Realistically, Mario is one of the worst characters in the game.

I know I'm a bit biased because of how much I love Mario, I've loved him and main him in every smash game, but I have a hard time believing he is on of the worst. I really do agree with a lot of what you said though. He should not have gotten his damage nerfs and it feels like the range on his Fsmash is reduced( I swear I see the fire touch the opponent and it doesn't connect), but he still feels really solid to me.

Probably bias and character loyalty, but I just can't see him lower than mid tier. His moves may be weak, but he is a quick character that can pile on the damage decently. I agree you have to work hard with him, but that's just another thing that makes him fun. As much as I love pm Mario and he out classes every other mario by a long shot, he doesn't need to be that powerful.

IMO they should have taken a page out of pm marios book and combined the best qualities of Doc and Reg Mario just toned down a bit from PM( I know Sakuri would never have done that, but it's an opinion and I can wish).

Just wondering how much better do you think Mario gets with his customs? The ones that stand out to me are EJP and gust cape. I think EJP is great, the shorter range bothers me none and the added KO option is really what Mario needed. The only thing I like about gust cape is that it helps with recovery like the old capes did. Not a fan of the wind box cause it can push them away from a punish or out of reach of a returning projectile. What are your thoughts?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know I'm a bit biased because of how much I love Mario, I've loved him and main him in every smash game, but I have a hard time believing he is on of the worst. I really do agree with a lot of what you said though. He should not have gotten his damage nerfs and it feels like the range on his Fsmash is reduced( I swear I see the fire touch the opponent and it doesn't connect), but he still feels really solid to me.

Probably bias and character loyalty, but I just can't see him lower than mid tier. His moves may be weak, but he is a quick character that can pile on the damage decently. I agree you have to work hard with him, but that's just another thing that makes him fun. As much as I love pm Mario and he out classes every other mario by a long shot, he doesn't need to be that powerful.

IMO they should have taken a page out of pm marios book and combined the best qualities of Doc and Reg Mario just toned down a bit from PM( I know Sakuri would never have done that, but it's an opinion and I can wish).

Just wondering how much better do you think Mario gets with his customs? The ones that stand out to me are EJP and gust cape. I think EJP is great, the shorter range bothers me none and the added KO option is really what Mario needed. The only thing I like about gust cape is that it helps with recovery like the old capes did. Not a fan of the wind box cause it can push them away from a punish or out of reach of a returning projectile. What are your thoughts?

Mario with customs is definitely a more viable character. Not amazing by any stretch, but customs do address the majority of his problems.

Keeping in mind he's not the only character that benefits noticeably from customs. Mostly, my quick impressions are that customs just make Mario less terrible in clearly bad matchups.

Really though, what Mario needs to be a good character is he needs Jab cancel combos (ESPECIALLY since he lacks good aerial KO moves), more reliable tilts (U-tilt for its poor range REALLY should have 5 frames less ending lag so Mario's juggles from U-tilt actually combo), and more than 7% on U-air (like...what the hell Nintendo).

And considering how much trouble Mario actually has in midrange, it really wouldn't be broken to give Mario specifically actual reliable aerial blockstrings that can't be shieldgrabbed.

 

[SmokeOut]

Mario with customs is definitely a more viable character. Not amazing by any stretch, but customs do address the majority of his problems.

Keeping in mind he's not the only character that benefits noticeably from customs. Mostly, my quick impressions are that customs just make Mario less terrible in clearly bad matchups.

Really though, what Mario needs to be a good character is he needs Jab cancel combos (ESPECIALLY since he lacks good aerial KO moves), more reliable tilts (U-tilt for its poor range REALLY should have 5 frames less ending lag so Mario's juggles from U-tilt actually combo), and more than 7% on U-air (like...what the hell Nintendo).

And considering how much trouble Mario actually has in midrange, it really wouldn't be broken to give Mario specifically actual reliable aerial blockstrings that can't be shieldgrabbed.

I feel you dude. It makes absolutely no sense that Nintendo's mascot is a below average character. It feels like the dev team has a grudge against him and pretend like they don't. Or maybe they just don't realize how crippling they've made him. Either way, I wish I could have a word with them about how and why they designed Mario the way they did.

I'm not saying he should be the best character, but he should at least be able to contend. Nintendo's mascot should not be unviable in a Nintendo all stars fighting game!

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's worth keeping in mind, Nintendo literally could have ported Brawl Mario into Smash 4 physics engine, and he would be a solid competitive character.

He'd be sorta stupid in the face of everyone else getting universal damage nerfs. Keeping in mind that reward on hit is seriously half the reason why Diddy and Yoshi are dumb to play against this game. More importantly though, while Brawl Mario actually got good reward for getting in successfully, he also had Jab cancels to add mixups and safe confirms to his closeup game. Then Brawl Mario also had Cape Stalling on default Cape...yeah.

Only thing Smash 4 Mario has over Brawl is buffed FLUDD. Which is alright, but really not enough. Buffed D-throw on Mario barely does crap in this game when Mario's combo followups are too unrewarding. Brawl Mario did more damage than Smash 4 Mario with fewer reads...like in two reads you could potentially take people to around the mid 60s, while in Smash 4, you need like three reads to barely reach 50%.

 

[SmokeOut]

I just can't get into using the flood. I would have much rather have it like pm so I could use the M nado to help with recovery and have Mario's drill dair from that game. I loved SH dair, Lcancel into grab in that game! There were just so many things good about pm mario, I could go on and on. I know he isn't coming back, but potentially in the future they could make some patches that alter characters and Mario might get some of the buffs he needs, but I'm definitely not gonna hold my breath for that. I'm just going to continue to play as him and get the best I can and make him work as good as I can.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just can't get into using the flood. I would have much rather have it like pm so I could use the M nado to help with recovery and have Mario's drill dair from that game. I loved SH dair, Lcancel into grab in that game! There were just so many things good about pm mario, I could go on and on. I know he isn't coming back, but potentially in the future they could make some patches that alter characters and Mario might get some of the buffs he needs, but I'm definitely not gonna hold my breath for that. I'm just going to continue to play as him and get the best I can and make him work as good as I can.

FLUDD actually pushes people pretty respectable distances this game. Use it to put people on the ledge as well as edgeguard. Every spare moment you have should be spent charging FLUDD in this game because of how it allows you to outplay people.

 

[SmokeOut]

FLUDD actually pushes people pretty respectable distances this game. Use it to put people on the ledge as well as edgeguard. Every spare moment you have should be spent charging FLUDD in this game because of how it allows you to outplay people.

Yeah, I've been reading what people on here say about using it and that's usually what I hear. However, I rarely find a good situation when it helps. The opponent usually recover too high or too low for me to use the fludd properly. I'll continue to try it out, but I just wish they would have given him a different move altogether. It's just kind of a lame move to begin with and scoring a KO with just seems really cheesy and unsatisfying, unlike scoring an fair meteor offstage or an Fsmash.

 

[chipndip]

Anybody who thinks Mario is bad has obviously never played against a good one. His smash attacks are all extremely quick, and his up smash even has invincibility frames now. If you can't KO somebody at around 100%, then you're using Mario incorrectly.

Now I disagree on the last sentence, but you're right on everything else. Just faced a good one today (a new friend of mine on campus actually), and let's just say that if I wasn't using either or on him, I couldn't win 2/3 against him.

Mario's advantage is that he's able to keep pressure on with quick attacks, but he's not a lightweight. He's got good tools, so even if he's not the best at finishing a stock off, getting to KO ranges can be quick and efficient. Now, KOs at 100% is pretty lenient, though. He still isn't the best at finishing a stock. I'll stand by that statement.

 

[SmokeOut]

The only way I see Mario scoring KOs at 100% is landing an Fsmash toward the edge of the stage, an Fair meteor offstage or maybe a fresh up smash on a lighter character. If there's another way someone else knows of please share.

 

[BSP]

^All of which take reads, except the last one, which instead requires you to forego Usmash's utility in order to KO with it.

@ SmokeOut FLUDD KOs are hilarious. Go look at some of my vids if you need some ideas of when to use it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^All of which take reads, except the last one, which instead requires you to forego Usmash's utility in order to KO with it.

@ SmokeOut FLUDD KOs are hilarious. Go look at some of my vids if you need some ideas of when to use it.

Yeah like, especially considering the nerfs to D-smash...you're somewhat forced to use U-smash for damage (thankfully that move still does good damage). Worth keeping in mind D-smash isn't a terrible KO move when fresh, but losing Jab cancels into it is lame.

I wish Mario's D-air landing hit was more reliable, because it's a **** good combo starter (seriously, the frame advantage on hit is real), but only if the stars align. Meanwhile...Pikachu still gets fastfall F-air -> free move at like all percents.

 

[Pikachewy99]

As a robin player, I definitely have trouble with good Mario players. His combos are really hard to get out of, and most of his attacks have little end lag to punish. It's definitely challenging to fight someone who actually knows how to use him correctly.
Though Mario does wreck me, you shouldn't feel bad about using him. In fact, I like it when I can't even stand a chance against a player, it just goes to show how much I need to learn, and fighting someone better than me is definitely going to help me get better.

 

[MrFrigid]

While there have been many things I both agree and disagree with in this thread, I gotta say, Mario gimps a decent amount of characters fairly easily.

 

[Commander Charles]

I'm sorry but I simply cant understand why people see Mario that bad.

He's agile, got the tools to get into combos and now flood is A LOT more useful than it was in brawl.

Of course, if you want an easy life, this is not your place. Characters like Sheik are really tuff for Mario, but he's way to far from being a low tier or something like a Ganondorf.

 

[MrFrigid]

I'm sorry but I simply cant understand why people see Mario that bad.

He's agile, got the tools to get into combos and now flood is A LOT more useful than it was in brawl.

Of course, if you want an easy life, this is not your place. Characters like Sheik are really tuff for Mario, but he's way to far from being a low tier or something like a Ganondorf.

I agree. Mario's a plumber, and plumbers work hard as **** to earn what they have.

 

[an1bal]

I haven't played a single game of Smash 4. Take that as you will. You can argue that maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

yea you dont know what youre talking about.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm sorry but I simply cant understand why people see Mario that bad.

He's agile, got the tools to get into combos and now flood is A LOT more useful than it was in brawl.

Of course, if you want an easy life, this is not your place. Characters like Sheik are really tuff for Mario, but he's way to far from being a low tier or something like a Ganondorf.

Combos? Yeah, if Mario actually had guaranteed combos that broke 20%. D-throw U-tilt only does 11 damage, and most characters can escape after the first U-tilt.

Doesn't matter much that Mario has combos when he literally has to hard read people just to do what, 23 damage (take something like last hit D-air -> U-air -> B-air, which does about that much damage in this game)? Ganondorf lands any Smash attack, and does more damage than that.

FLUDD is better. Definitely. But it doesn't seriously address Mario's problems, and he actually gained MORE problems in this game than he had previously. Mario still can't kill with aerials, and he also lost Jab cancel combos. And everyone juggles and edgeguards him even more easily than before. Mario isn't good in neutral, he isn't good in the negative state, and his reward is unreliable at best, generally speaking terrible on average.

 

[Malle]

I've mained Mario since the days of 64.

He isn't bad, but he hasn't the greatest KO options like other characters.. BUT, that doesn't stop me from wrecking anyone online.
I've played all characters, and I feel that Mario is absolutely among the top characters in my hands, his air game and combo-racking is so malicious its almost scary. Fludd is an extreme Little Mac killer and its almost disgusting how easy it is to kill him off. This also goes for Ganondorf.

Mario's speedy animations and semi-ko powering is good enough to make swift work of an opponent.

I'll just leave this here

 

[Commander Charles]

Sorry man, but to compare Mario with Ganondorf you're going to far. Everything that Ganondorf has, is almost useless against any Mario.

Smash isn't about to win a match with a single hit. If you analyse Sheik, you'll see that she doesn't inflict much damage, but everything is about her speed, agility and combo potential.

Mario neutral game isn't bad, since he has a good speed comparing with some chars and a really nice agility.

Mario can make a stand against top chars like Marth or Lucina, for example. He's way more agile, and after getting in Marth's or Lucina's short range; you can combo or punish them really hard; and it's not that difficult.

And a Thing that I haven't being saying is that Mario has the wall jump, that makes all the difference against this chars and makes his recovery a lot less predictable on stages with this possibility.

As Malle has said before, he's not the best. Sure a real option against some high tiers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Neither of you is clearly willing to listen to facts, even though there is hard evidence from raw numbers and the loss of ATs that Mario is blatantly nerfed from Brawl. And Brawl Mario was considered low tier by most, yet he survived longer than Smash 4 Mario, and did more damage in fewer reads. And somehow, you want to argue that Smash 4 Mario is magically a solid character when not only does he get outspaced by most characters skill assumed equal, he can't beat most characters in 1 for 1 trades, and he is also one of the worst characters at dealing with juggles and edgeguards.

For Glory by the way is largely a joke for anyone that has a few fighting game fundamentals, who are quite obviously within the minority within the worldwide Smash population, so saying that you can beat a lot of people online is to be expected. And it effectively doesn't mean anything.

 

[Naisora]

Actually A2Z, the first time you said Ganondorf is looking better than Mario I thought you were crazy, but after playing some pretty good Ganondorfs, I wouldn't say he's better than Mario but he seems like he has a bit more potential this time around.

 

[Commander Charles]

I said before that Mario is not a top player, what I said is that he can make a stand against high tier chats, not having a lot of advantages but neither the game starts done for him.

Yes, Mario was considered low tier before, but Ganondorf was actually the worse char along side with Bowser ou DK, dunno. Just with the higher speed, patience and the lame fireballs, Mario can kinda camp Ganondorf! I'm sorry man, but simply don't buy your comparison.

Again: He's not top 3 or even close now, but he has the tools to win high tiers like Marth, Lucina, Little Mach (btw, a char with a far more strong limitation, but people continue using, just because of the ground game, even that you only need to throw him outstage and he's dead). and others.

It may be not heaven, with sheiks combos or DH's camping game, but it's definitely not as bad as you're picturing it.

 

[Malle]

Sorry man, but to compare Mario with Ganondorf you're going to far. Everything that Ganondorf has, is almost useless against any Mario.

Smash isn't about to win a match with a single hit. If you analyse Sheik, you'll see that she doesn't inflict much damage, but everything is about her speed, agility and combo potential.

Mario neutral game isn't bad, since he has a good speed comparing with some chars and a really nice agility.

Mario can make a stand against top chars like Marth or Lucina, for example. He's way more agile, and after getting in Marth's or Lucina's short range; you can combo or punish them really hard; and it's not that difficult.

And a Thing that I haven't being saying is that Mario has the wall jump, that makes all the difference against this chars and makes his recovery a lot less predictable on stages with this possibility.

As Malle has said before, he's not the best. Sure a real option against some high tiers.

What I meant was how effective Fludd was vs Ganondorf, not comparing them as whole character wise.

EDIT: Ops, I thought you guys meant me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't recall bringing up matchups.

And I'm not denying FLUDD is much more useful for Mario in this game. But by itself, it doesn't round out Mario and solve his problems.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How the hell does mario even put pressure on anyone?

 

[Fire!]

Cross-up Down Airs and Fireball.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I meant good pressure that doesnt involve risks or relying on poor options.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How the hell does mario even put pressure on anyone?

By outsmarting his opponent in midrange. May or may not involve FLUDD just for the sake of actually pushing people to the ledge.

Gust Cape/Fast Fireballs help make midrange actually playable for Mario, but yeah. You probably know what I've been wondering for the past month or so.

Like, things seriously wouldn't be so bad for Mario if he actually did decent damage on more moves, but the way it is right now, it just seems so awful to risk trading hits as Mario, especially considering that Mario is easily juggled and edgeguarded, and can't KO early with most of his moves. At least in Brawl, bigger damage per hit meant you could make bigger plays on reads, and get people to KO ranges sooner.

 

[BSP]

I meant good pressure that doesnt involve risks or relying on poor options.

He doesn't.
You have to be really smart with this character to get past his mediocrity at neutral.

I abuse his running speed, grab , and fast attacks to keep the pressure on once I'm in though.

FLUDDing campers and people that jump a lot to the edge can lead to reward too.

 

[GeZ]

For Glory by the way is largely a joke for anyone that has a few fighting game fundamentals, who are quite obviously within the minority within the worldwide Smash population, so saying that you can beat a lot of people online is to be expected. And it effectively doesn't mean anything.

This, a thousand times this. Everyone brings up Smash 4 online win rates to back points, and it's just not nearly the same as tournaments win rates. Online is free, so beating people online doesn't prove anything.

 

[Commander Charles]

Mario is a character that you simply can't play like most of the cast, and that's a thing that almost anyone realize.

You can't go insane on a trade or be careless like a madman, because he has short range and all the stuff that we know. The key is always patience: Patience for knowing when put pressure, defend and even to wait to be creative, to not enter into a trap made by yourself (an easy thing to do with Mario).

Maybe he's not exactly a rewarding character like ZSS, but I defend that you can surprise people on the competitive scene with a solid Mario.

 

[GeZ]

Mario is a character that you simply can't play like most of the cast, and that's a thing that almost anyone realize.

You can't go insane on a trade or be careless like a madman, because he has short range and all the stuff that we know. The key is always patience: Patience for knowing when put pressure, defend and even to wait to be creative, to not enter into a trap made by yourself (an easy thing to do with Mario).

Maybe he's not exactly a rewarding character like ZSS, but I defend that you can surprise people on the competitive scene with a solid Mario.

That applies for everyone. A Rookie surprises everyone in the competitive scene beating ass with Mario in Melee, and that ****s dumb hard.

No one is saying you can't win with the character. No one will ever say that. They're saying that the toolset they have is bad, making winning much more difficult.

 

[Commander Charles]

That applies for everyone. A Rookie surprises everyone in the competitive scene beating *** with Mario in Melee, and that ****s dumb hard.

No one is saying you can't win with the character. No one will ever say that. They're saying that the toolset they have is bad, making winning much more difficult.

I'm sorry but I think that you haven't paid attention on what I said.

Patience is needed to every char in the game, that's obvious. What I was trying to show is that this is the main point on Mario's game exactly because he doesn't has miraculously good tools, so you can't just be aggressive like Sheik or ZSS and think that you can win. So, you need to stay back, use more your shield, things that most part of people simply can't do because they think that they must play like "Mango's fox" with our humble plumber.

You can put rivals into trouble striking back with combos on the right time. Actually, you guys are speaking like he has no good tools at all. He may not be perfect, but he's agile and has good speed, a thing that even the overated Falco doesn't has (he's agile but a bit slow, *not saying Falco is bad, FGS).

Anyway, I'll say it again: Not a top tier, but definitely no ganondorf or bottom char, he's a something-mid-tier. That's what I meant with "he can surprise", and I hope someone does that some day. ^^

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf is better than Mario. Let's get that straight now.

Ganondorf took 2nd in a 108 man Japanese tournament not long ago. Did Mario do anything like that recently? I think not.

 

[GeZ]

@ C Commander Charles I understand perfectly what you're saying, but Mario isn't good in this game. What you're missing is that he's always relied on superior movement to be viable, at least in Melee and P:M, and Smash 4 isn't a game that can provide him those kinds of movement options. He's bad dude. Without the creative movement he's got no range, average combo ability, low kill power, no real ability to combo into that kill, etc.

He's like a much more stilted Melee Mario, which is unfortunate but just how things have turned out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ C Commander Charles I understand perfectly what you're saying, but Mario isn't good in this game. What you're missing is that he's always relied on superior movement to be viable, at least in Melee and P:M, and Smash 4 isn't a game that can provide him those kinds of movement options. He's bad dude. Without the creative movement he's got no range, average combo ability, low kill power, no real ability to combo into that kill, etc.

He's like a much more stilted Melee Mario, which is unfortunate but just how things have turned out.

Melee Mario was sorta not pointless simply because his chaingrabs were actually ****ing ******** (like, instantly invalidate bad characters ********), and his edgeguarding was also kinda seriously strong in a game where not many people actually had the option of safe ledgedrop B-airs. Otherwise yeah, Nintendo generally has never really bothered to give Mario seriously good normals.

If Brawl Mario was directly ported to Smash 4, he would be a good competitive character, mostly because of damage output and Cape Stalling being a thing. But yeah like...Smash 4 Mario just...he's Brawl Mario without the reward.

 

[GeZ]

The chaingrabs are crazy but the movement is what the character is based around, in my opinion. A Rookie or Brown Mario show that off well just by navigating the battlefield better than their opponents.

Smash 4 Mario is pretty bad. That's just how it is. Doc has some neat stuff though.

 

[SmokeOut]

Damn this is painful to read, but I've always agreed. They just gave Mario the short end of the stick. I still can't see him being a bottom 5 until proven. Jumpman did get 2nd place in that tournament that Tourney Locator(I think) streams. Correct me if I'm wrong someone else had to have seen it. Anyway, perhaps with the ability to update the game they will tweak some characters and we will see Mario get some buffs he needs to help with his move set.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc has some neat stuff though.

Isn't he generally considered worse than Mario? Or have people found something? Given that I main him I'm kinda curious if this could be something interesting.