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First off, English isn't my first language.
Secondly, anyone taking that to mean anything more than an illustration of contrasting requirementss (i.e. how I was required to work with "reason" and "proof" whereas he worked with "imagine" and "feel") would be the only ones misunderstanding anything.
It was illustrative, simple as that - any additional focus on this looks to be a red herring.
Anyways, the main thing I posted for is because I'm going to recommend 1 thing though to make this debate more productive:
@T0MMY
, you need to approach the debate by looking at the idea of what @DunnoBro
is saying; the meaning, not the language that encodes and transmits it. Focus on the points being made more than just how it's said.
That is a reasonable request.
People mentally function in different ways, and I wonder why it was put on me to adhere to another method of thinking and no suggestion was given to DunnoBro to try to see things from the way I think things through. My only guess is bias.
But despite the deduced bias I believe the intention was admirable and honest.
Can't say how successful I am going to be at it, but consider it understood and I hope the same respect can be shown in return on the other side of the argument. In this way even if both sides stay unconvinced at least there was some benefit to the conversation.
Has there been any large scale poll which indicated that most people are against custom moves? Every poll I've seen has been in overwhelming support of switching to custom moves.
The impression that I got was that only reason custom moves where not the standard at the start was because of logistics, which we now have a way to solve that problem.
No I'm not.
Waiting meant to hold off until next year when they'd actually be accepted more by people like myself kind-of-supporting customs. If nobody runs/enters custom events then the demand isn't there and just proves they shouldn't have been pushed on people to begin with.
As it is I am not supporting them at all due to the disrespectful fashion they were introduced. This is my stance and mine alone, feel free to put me at ease with why customs were introduced properly because I don't see it, but if so I'll change my stance to even more supportive than I was preivous. Very simple and reasonable - everything about this makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is pushing a rule change on people who are attending EVO who never said they wanted the rule changed and how it goes against the standards.
Best case scenario for custom movement is that Customs become the standard & we do not have any metagame development for vanilla version like we should have naturally had - wow, that's best case scenario? That sucks!
Who are you? Why should your personal feelings matter here?
"Well in a year, I'd like them" Is not a quantifiable variable and is purely unacceptable. You're not explaining how or why they'd be accepted, you're just saying they would be. Time alone does not create acceptance. And it can easily create the converse.
This disconnect from point A to point B is baffling.
Also, just as how the customs meta should bud and survive naturally according to you, then default should too if it's worthy. What are you afraid of, then?
Already did, bro. Not going to keep repeating myself.
If plain english wasn't working then I feel I'm wasting my time.
Go back and read my posts.
Also, speaking purely in regards to human psychology, it's far easier to get large groups of people to exact change within a small amount of time than elongated.
No refutation of this methodology or the applications of it to this particular situation, just a half-assed dismissal.
I noticed it was odd for someone to juxtapose reasoning and imagination.
Obviously pointing out how I am required to provide reasonable facts while the other side of the argument works with rosy imagination.
You're free to engage in these subtle jabs instead of addressing my actual points if you wish, but I should warn you they really do nothing but add malice and contempt to the already stressful environment of debate.
Here you simply take my call for civility in the face of your honestly irrefutable inability to understand context and throw it in my face with yet more hostility.
In light of this, I fear your refusal to give me clear answers when I ask for them, brashly asserting you've already made them and demanding I find them myself (despite me obviously being the one conversing with you the entire time so I'm obviously not understanding if I'm asking) shows a clear lack of ability to cooperate and discuss. I hope to be able to discuss this issue with you in the future, but i don't feel now is the time.
Tommy, stop being obstinate. If you're that damned frightened of being beaten by someone using a custom set, then STAY HOME.
Either you can adapt and surmount what is being presented to you, or someone else will and you'll lose anyway.
Prove yourself at the tournament. You have SIX MONTHS TO PREPARE FOR IT. That should be more than enough time for the regionals that you think we should use for "easing into" the custom to actually experiment with and see what works
You're all such entitled children, chill the **** out
If you're going by that strict of a rule there's very little options - including your own option of 'now is the best time' (which is also not a quantifiable variable).
You're not explaining how or why they'd be accepted, you're just saying they would be.
No, obviously not.
I am saying if the change in ruling (custom fighters) is all it's cracked up to be it should be accepted.
Also, just as how the customs meta should bud and survive naturally according to you, then default should too if it's worthy. What are you afraid of, then?
Sorry, I might have actually posted them in another thread.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and search my post history and may come back and give you a "Sorry but your response is in another castle" in just a bit.
I don't have to refute something that stands apparent:
"it's far easier to get large groups of people to exact change within a small amount of time than elongated."
Reckless abandon it is then.
The very thing I stand against: Mob mentality and making rash decisions.
If you think that's just peachy then we'll just disagree and I'm fine with that.
But to make a response that it's just "half-**** dismissal" would be self-incriminating: dismissing my position simply because it's contrary to yours.
I at least accept your position while maintaining my own. And I can make a case for where I stand without resorting to vulgarities.
Here you simply take my call for civility in the face of your honestly irrefutable inability to understand context and throw it in my face with yet more hostility.
You can see anything you want as hostility, bro. I'll say it again I was challenging you to treat me with the same respect.
You demand I work with "reason" and "proof" and I point out you are working with feelings and imagination. I called foul.
I said it before and here it is again: your choice how you want to see this challenge.
Someone slaps you with their glove in the old south or wild west because you disrespected them then you can say they were "hostile", or you can man up.
Treat me with the same respect: reason/proof/logic or get outta Dodge.
In light of this, I fear your refusal to give me clear answers when I ask for them, brashly asserting you've already made them and demanding I find them myself (despite me obviously being the one conversing with you the entire time so I'm obviously not understanding if I'm asking) shows a clear lack of ability to cooperate and discuss. I hope to be able to discuss this issue with you in the future, but i don't feel now is the time.
Well, I was respectful enough to give you benefit of the doubt regarding some posts I have to dig through (and will honor this promise) as was I respectful enough to accept your stance (yet still disagree).
Up to you to show the same respect. I'll get back about the posts I made momentarily.
lol
Cuz I'm attending EVO even after the way the customs were pushed in there, spendin' that money and taking the time to go down there and compete anyway.
Same thing that was said about Zero just because he did not support the Custom decision.
I find trying to push a false image on established members of the competitive scene just because they disagree with something to be disrespectful.
You're all such entitled children, chill the **** out
Ok, back from my excursion to look at the reasons I posted.
Turns out I did post them and they were either overlooked or ignored, but... Here ya go
Some Reasons:
"Put Customs into tournaments as a side-event and if it's as good as the zealots claim then it'll come into its own without the schism."
"it will have worked through most all the potential bugs so it will give ease to the players who do not want get janked."
"And finally it doesn't (potentially) pose to make SSBU look like a scrubfest the way including Items did to Brawl which ultimately paints the core image of the game"
[if Customs fails it doesn't matter 2nd EVO around because 1st EVO worked] "it will not matter because the competitive image is still there."
Simply put there is NO HARM having a vanilla Smash Wii U main event. Speculations that it will kill any possibility that Customs could ever be used is akin to chicken little crying the sky will fall.
All attempts to prove that the Smash Community is unforgiving in changing its rules only show the complete opposite: Stocks have changed from Time, Number of Stocks changed, Time Limit has changed, Items were turned OFF, Meta Knight was banned, Meta Knight ban was disregarded. The number of situations is INSURMOUNTABLE.
So why all the chicken little fear setting in?
There is a very real event that happened with Smash that was painfully similar and (surprise) it was at EVO when Items were pushed on Brawl in the same way. It ended up pushing an image that Brawl was "not competitive", an image it never fully shook and paved the way for Melee at Melee.
Obviously not exiting my support of Customs at EVO due to nothing and although I fully admit my concerns are not 100% confirmed to repeat history, there is beyond a doubt reason for concern coupled with having absolutely no risk when it comes to just letting a Standard Tournament take place and simply allowing Customs to work their way in naturally.
I've been semi-supporting customs and have the right to withdraw my support. EVO is giving me reason not to and I am just one person with one opinion, but I believe the opinion is built off something much stronger :^)
My primary issue isn't with customs in general, it's with the fact that because default set-ups are that around which the game is structured (For Glory, for example), the overwhelming majority of experience is with defaults. Some may say that it's certain people's faults for not acquainting themselves with customs, and while this is partially true, the fact is that customs practice is not easy to come by.
Even if you do find such practice, you're likely practicing against one build. A viable solution, at least superficially, is to just acquaint oneself with each move. But I think I'm being reasonable when I say that if simply knowing what a move does sufficed, the number of tournament-level players would dramatically outnumber the inverse.
Just to demonstrate my meaning, consider a Captain Falcon doing a dash attack. His DA is long, which means you should be prepared to turn around and grab him, lest you fail to do so and grab the air as he goes behind you. Knowing this, it's still easy to make similar mistakes while that responsive engram's still developing. Only when the appropriate response is developed and solidified can one say they can competently deal with certain things.
You didn't read his post. He was indicating he needs competent humans so that he can practice fighting the custom moves. You're being much less productive with your use of the internet than he is by responding in such an unmeaningful way.
Customs or not, it's a fact of life that some players have better scenes to practice with than others. I kind of feel like you just have to suck it up and deal with it.
Besides, constantly insisting that custom adoption should be held off for later is only going to make acclimating to them harder to do. Why even bother waiting? I still think it's a dressed up way of saying "I don't actually want customs to be used ever."
I would use your same argument against you. It's self-centered to exclude anyone.
Your argument isn't even being self-centered, it's an appeal to the masses - this is "herd mentality" or "mob rule" which invalidates valid arguments and disregards reasoning in favor of a brutish "might makes right".
I'll give you a great example of why this way of thinking is incorrect for us: Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for dinner.
There is one more wolf than sheep therefore they ask how the few (sheep) invalidate the many (wolves) and that the sheep is simply just self-centered in arguing not to be visciously torn to pieces and consumed by the wolves.
In our case those competitors who are going to compete in EVO may be considered self-centered for not wanting Customs pushed on them by the wolves.
Your logic is terribly flawed, and I will tell you why
Default custom moves is Option A
Most but not all customs are Option B
All Customs are Option C
Your argument is A and Not B and Not C
Our argument is A and B and Not C due to time constraints
We argue for A and B, which does not deny you Option A, but you argue against Option B which does deny others their preference in moves.
Having Option A and B does not limit anybody who prefers to use the defaults for their character. Your Sheep example would apply only if we banned defaults as this would be an act of coercion. More options is just more freedom, simply put you are against choice.
I already covered those who are against choice/customs because they are afraid of them. The fear is due to ignorance on customs and the lack of desire to learn them. This means that some would not know the full MU and chances of winning go down. Its not like I don't know the underlying psychology here, but the ability to provide options/choice trumps fear of losing I'm afraid.
For you to make any logical headway here, you need to explain why choice and options are bad. Saying choices scare me isn't a logical reason.
Also saying that mob rule aka popularity shouldn't apply to a product of supply and demand is humoring as well, because even if we are going with minority rule here, one single but major venue has decided to try customs out (aka minority rule), so what's the harm if one major venue tries it? Answer: You fear is that it might catch on.
You didn't read his post. He was indicating he needs competent humans so that he can practice fighting the custom moves. You're being much less productive with your use of the internet than he is by responding in such an unmeaningful way.
"I'm sorry you can't have the cake"
"Why not? It looks and smells delicious!"
"Well you see it's supposed to have walnuts in it and we didn't have any, so it's a deficient cake"
"But it has peanuts, cashews, almonds, pecans, pistachios, brazil nuts, macadamias, and a million other delicious nuts in it!"
"Yeah well MY favourite nuts are walnuts and they aren't in the cake so therefore YOU can't eat it. Starve biatch"
"I'm sorry you can't have the cake"
"Why not? It looks and smells delicious!"
"Well you see it's supposed to have walnuts in it and we didn't have any, so it's a deficient cake"
"But it has peanuts, cashews, almonds, pecans, pistachios, brazil nuts, macadamias, and a million other delicious nuts in it!"
"Yeah well MY favourite nuts are walnuts and they aren't in the cake so therefore YOU can't eat it. Starve biatch"
Though in all seriousness I think the tone towards the OP is a bit too rude. It doesn't do anything to convince him (if anything it makes him more contrary, I know that can happen for me) and in general I feel like it's better to treat people with respect even if we disagree.
"I'm sorry you can't have the cake"
"Why not? It looks and smells delicious!"
"Well you see it's supposed to have walnuts in it and we didn't have any, so it's a deficient cake"
"But it has peanuts, cashews, almonds, pecans, pistachios, brazil nuts, macadamias, and a million other delicious nuts in it!"
"Yeah well MY favourite nuts are walnuts and they aren't in the cake so therefore YOU can't eat it. Starve biatch"
You're looking at this all wrong. It's not a "my set isn't there so nobody's should be" thing. Step back and take another look. I'm standing up for the whole crowd of competitive smash that doesn't post on this site. Maybe you should step out of your nut shell..
Also, I've already stated I'm still on the fence about customs. I just feel like there is this whole "we're doing it now, I don't care if some people don't get an opinion on how it goes" mentality
You're looking at this all wrong. It's not a "my set isn't there so nobody's should be" thing. Step back and take another look. I'm standing up for the whole crowd of competitive smash that doesn't post on this site. Maybe you should step out of your nut shell..
Also, I've already stated I'm still on the fence about customs. I just feel like there is this whole "we're doing it now, I don't care if some people don't get an opinion on how it goes" mentality
You're looking at this all wrong. It's not a "my set isn't there so nobody's should be" thing. Step back and take another look. I'm standing up for the whole crowd of competitive smash that doesn't post on this site. Maybe you should step out of your nut shell..
Also, I've already stated I'm still on the fence about customs. I just feel like there is this whole "we're doing it now, I don't care if some people don't get an opinion on how it goes" mentality
Assuming that there is no significant correlation between which opinion people have on this matter and the likelihood they will post on the internet about it, then we can take internet polls and general attitude on the forums as a good measure of the relative opinion of the community on customs (i.e.: if 85% of people who take the polls are in favor of customs, then it is not unlikely about 85% of people with opinions on the matter are in favor of customs).
It's not might make right, it's not ignoring opinions. It's democracy. If 10 people are sharing a single pizza and only one of them wants anchovies, they aren't ordering a pizza with anchovies.
Yes, it's not fair to people who the system excludes, but no customs are unfair to people who main characters like Doc, Palutena, and Ike. A system without presets is unfair to TO's and entire tournament scene. Life is not fair. Someone will end up getting the short end of the stick, and not having customs doesn't solve that. We need to make sure its unfair to the least number of people.
On another note:
Ever since evo announced they were going to allow customs, I've been trying to practice against them.
I play online ladder matches (atleast a couple) everyday. I have asked EVERYONE I've played against if they'd like to use customs. This is not even an exaggeration, but NOT ONE person has played with customs or even would agree to let me use them. :/ it kind of blows my mind with this "80% of the competitive community wants them"
I guess the stray 20% is all on anthers ladder. Or that 80% really is full of casuals.
On another note:
Ever since evo announced they were going to allow customs, I've been trying to practice against them.
I play online ladder matches (atleast a couple) everyday. I have asked EVERYONE I've played against if they'd like to use customs. This is not even an exaggeration, but NOT ONE person has played with customs or even would agree to let me use them. :/ it kind of blows my mind with this "80% of the competitive community wants them"
I guess the stray 20% is all on anthers ladder. Or that 80% really is full of casuals.
You could be an isolated incident, or exaggerating. I do think your experience is important to make note of, but it won't hold ground unless we get other people with the same complaint, which I haven't seen to many of. Have you seen other people with the same complaint?
Something about the environment you play in could be more likely to attract people who don't use customs. You could try to search for groups of people who want to practice with customs and practice with them online. Start a thread asking to join a group, or make one here if you want to practice locally.
@TTeh Sandwich
So because some sets wont make it to EVO that means they can't be added later or what? You still want to have customs off entirely because of a minor issue. Afaik the people working on sets for EVO did research what sets where to be used, they asked around and did their homework, if people didn't take the chance to provide them with input those people don't get to complain that their sets aren't in.
And it really makes no sense how you think that having no customs is better than having plenty of custom sets but not all of them. It's like if you can't have 100% you'd rather have 0% than 90%. Tbh it seems you're just pissed that you personally pulled the short end of the stick. And that's why the nutshell stands.
Moreover, if you want to make it in the competitive scene online play isn't going to cut it, you need to practice IRL. Having customs off because people can't practice online is ridiculous. And besides once customs start getting used its something that will most likely change.
@MajorMajora
: Maybe. I don't think so tbh. I think it's unrealistical to expect the implementation to be perfect this early on, and I'm sick and tired of people pointing to small problems as if though they were major issues.
I also suspect most of the complaints about the sets included come from mediocre players who demand superflous or inferior sets because of personal preferences. Still, it is impossible to know which sets are the best at this point in time anyway.
Pretty much all the issues with customs can and will be resolved if customs actually get used. The naysayers wont to sacrifice so much just because of a little initial awkwardness. It really bothers me. Moreover I keep hearing "not yet.. but later.. at some point.. maybe", the longer we wait the harder it will be to implement customs, because people settle into the default metagame, they practice it and they become good at it. Introduce customs and all of a sudden they have to learn something new, and initially they will have less of a shot at winning than they did before. People want to win. The more the default metagame is mastered the larger the resistance towards customs will be. There is a term for this, it's called "cocaine logic", I know Sirlin's talked about in his pod. It may sound silly but it's really just basic psychology.
On another note:
Ever since evo announced they were going to allow customs, I've been trying to practice against them.
I play online ladder matches (atleast a couple) everyday. I have asked EVERYONE I've played against if they'd like to use customs. This is not even an exaggeration, but NOT ONE person has played with customs or even would agree to let me use them. :/ it kind of blows my mind with this "80% of the competitive community wants them"
I guess the stray 20% is all on anthers ladder. Or that 80% really is full of casuals.
You're playing online, right?
Online has the problem where you cannot tell if your opponent is using custom equipment (nintendo plz fix); annoying, but few people (especially in a ranked ladder) will be fine going on the honor system.
For me personally though, I do and do not like customs at EVO. As things are now, I'm glad they're there, but IDEALLY they should not be there, at least not as the first at least SOMEWHAT big tournament. What should be happening is OUR OWN COMMUNITY and their OWN MAJOR TOURNAMENTS coming out and saying "Hey uh, customs gonna be legal here. Get ready" but even with the EVO announcement, no one has done that.
And they'd likely never do that, because players cater to players. Not necessarily due to nepotism or any type or conflict of interest being players themselves, but simply because players do not have the means to gamble on untested ground. Things are done very close to the chest and alienating participants can mean a failure of an event in terms of monetary health.
If things were switched, and CEO were the one having customs and not EVO, I'd be much more satisfied. Better still, customs and default being held simultaneously.
But CEO could never do that. Orlando/Florida players in particular dislike customs, this means alienating your core audience. Why do that, as a TO?
This EVO is sm4sh's message to the fighting game world, it's important we make that message clear, efficient, and as meaningful as possible. I don't like that this message isn't anywhere near completed yet.
All that said, I'd rather send the fighting game world a message of nonsensical, barely legible gibberish than adhere religiously to tradition for the sake of it. I believe the customs meta the objectively deeper, more entertaining, and balanced game. I'm not going to keep putting it off for anyone's sake but the sake of itself or it's players.
So to many, I agree that customs shouldn't be at EVO on base level alone. But then I add "It should be legal somewhere, though."
My primary issue isn't with customs in general, it's with the fact that because default set-ups are that around which the game is structured (For Glory, for example), the overwhelming majority of experience is with defaults. Some may say that it's certain people's faults for not acquainting themselves with customs, and while this is partially true, the fact is that customs practice is not easy to come by.
Even if you do find such practice, you're likely practicing against one build. A viable solution, at least superficially, is to just acquaint oneself with each move. But I think I'm being reasonable when I say that if simply knowing what a move does sufficed, the number of tournament-level players would dramatically outnumber the inverse.
Just to demonstrate my meaning, consider a Captain Falcon doing a dash attack. His DA is long, which means you should be prepared to turn around and grab him, lest you fail to do so and grab the air as he goes behind you. Knowing this, it's still easy to make similar mistakes while that responsive engram's still developing. Only when the appropriate response is developed and solidified can one say they can competently deal with certain things.
That's a valid stance, but the same argument can be applied to any character matchup one is unfamiliar with. You can't seek specific opponents in For Glory, so if your local scene lacks players of a certain character, your ability to practice that matchup is kaput. Customs are a relatively small slice of the issue - if I don't know the Olimar matchup, I'm certainly not going to know how his customs work much at all, despite having manually ground them out on two consoles already, and playing customs-on with my friends for the past month and a half. But my bigger concern isn't going to be "Oh no what do his B moves do?", it's going to be "What on earth can his character do?"
Lack of proper practicing environments isn't necessarily easy to fix for anyone, but it's also not considered an excuse for unfamiliarity with other aspects of the game. We wouldn't feel sorry for the Melee player who ignored single player and thus never practiced on Final Destination and only got to play against Game&Watch after he'd played a thousand matches.
No, that is an incorrect assumption. Crescent slash can combo out of an f-throw at specific percentages. It is also a kill move. Additionally, it is also a grab release combo on certain characters as well, 12 to be exact which means if you grab one of those characters on the edge of the stage at high percents, they will be losing a stock. Dash Assault can lead into a lot of trap scenarios and can easily force jab lock's if your opponent does not tech when hitting the ground. Iaia Counter does do 2% less damage than regular counter and has a shorter frame window of being active but, in Lucina's case, it provides more 5 more units of KBG than Regular Counter or Easy Counter. Dolphin Jump also allows Marth and Lucina to go for riskier edge guard attempts since it provides a lot of vertical recovery with the downside of it being no hit-box.
With pre determined sets, and no uploading, I feel like since I'm not a regular in my mains' (link) boards, I'm already at a huge disadvantage.
I unlocked all his customs, and determined my favorite set (1233). Now looking at the moves set project, I see it's not one of the sets. Really, I don't even like the options that are there.
Now I am obligated to go to the link boards and try to convince everyone that my set (out of the many possibilities) should be one out of the ten that are available. This is a big problem because many people compete and don't post on this site. So right away, all smashboards regulars have an advantage.
I feel the only real way to fairly do customs is with online tourneys. Many people in my state have already made it clear, they will drop the game if customs become the norm.
It's just sounding like too much of a mess. I feel this game (competitively) is better off without them.
I'm just stopping by to say, I really enjoy your point you made. It was logical and not emotionally charged. It's the kind of argument everyone should be having. Thank you.
That's a valid stance, but the same argument can be applied to any character matchup one is unfamiliar with. You can't seek specific opponents in For Glory, so if your local scene lacks players of a certain character, your ability to practice that matchup is kaput. Customs are a relatively small slice of the issue - if I don't know the Olimar matchup, I'm certainly not going to know how his customs work much at all, despite having manually ground them out on two consoles already, and playing customs-on with my friends for the past month and a half. But my bigger concern isn't going to be "Oh no what do his B moves do?", it's going to be "What on earth can his character do?"
Lack of proper practicing environments isn't necessarily easy to fix for anyone, but it's also not considered an excuse for unfamiliarity with other aspects of the game. We wouldn't feel sorry for the Melee player who ignored single player and thus never practiced on Final Destination and only got to play against Game&Watch after he'd played a thousand matches.
I think not worrying about what someone's specials can do is asking for trouble. Take Ike for example. His default Aether I can punish easily -- end a stock, even. His more horizontal Aether, however, I can't touch. Right there's a difference between winning and losing.
Furthermore, if you feel that my same argument can be applied to default builds, then it looks like I need to do a better job explaining myself. =P The problems are the same in kind, but not degree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that a game type whose content (being new sets of b-moves) exceeds the default by orders of magnitude is less practical to practice, especially when such practice necessitates an obscene time commitment to unlocking that part of the game. It's realistic to learn 30-40 characters. It's not realistic to learn each of their 16 unique specials, at least not in so short an amount of time.
Like I said, I'm all for customs. But I don't think the biggest tournament in the world should be the place to test them.
I still do not believe that we are "testing" customs at EVO.
Maybe if EVO were slated to occur a week after rules were announced then it would seem that way, but this major is occurring on July 17, a good 4 months from now and 5 months from when the rules were announced. There's definitely more than enough of a grace period for people to get themselves acquainted with custom moves, and I've been seeing high key players all over prepping themselves, via streams, smashfests, and customs legal locals, to get themselves as ready as they possibly can for this.
There's almost no custom special where you can beat someone who mains the character with that custom if you have unlocked that custom at home, but you can't beat that same player if you have not unlocked that custom at home. I mean, I guess you could figure out the exact zones on Dong Cyclone where you are safe from the windbox sucking or gimping you, but it's probably more time efficient to spend that hour practicing your own character's combos on sandbag instead. That's about as close as it comes. The rest, just know whether it's a command grab or a hitbox, and spotdodge it if it's a command grab and shield it if it's a hitbox. They're all well animated and there's no secret magnet arms or invisihitboxes. If you need to see them once, they're on youtube or on streams.
The bigger issue than knowing what it does is figuring out what that should mean for your playstyle and MU experience, and unless you own a compliant little slave named Friday who will learn whatever character and custom set you want you're no closer to learning an underused move matchup than you are to learning underused character matchups. Learning underused character matchups is tricky, and can lead to janky losses, and that's smash. There was like that one weekend where a bunch of Sonics beat a bunch of top MKs one year in Brawl because know one knew how to fight a decent sonic even with a lifetime supply of lv9 Sonics available. That's just what happens, it happens.
Dong Cyclone is the only one I know about with behavior that perhaps is better experienced than observed. Maybe if you comb the entire game you can get up to a full handful, but unlocking each of those problem custom moves should add up to about the time it takes to unlock three new characters or one new stage.
I love customs but the way EVO is going to present them will ruin custom tournaments. There are 80 possible combinations of customs yet we have to select 10. That's 1/8 of the possible options. That's only 12.5% of the customs combinations being used. If EVO can't accommodate every players style, they shouldn't be the ones throwing the big smash 4 tournament or just stick to default.
These 10 sets are going to be picked based off popularity not merits of the meta. They will go by what they assume is best. They're are no tournaments or game footage that's determining this but simple assumptions.
If you can't do it right, they shouldn't do it at all. They will leave a bad taste in a lot of smash 4 fans and competitors.
I love customs but the way EVO is going to present them will ruin custom tournaments. There are 80 possible combinations of customs yet we have to select 10. That's 1/8 of the possible options. That's only 12.5% of the customs combinations being used. If EVO can't accommodate every players style, they shouldn't be the ones throwing the big smash 4 tournament or just stick to default.
These 10 sets are going to be picked based off popularity not merits of the meta. They will go by what they assume is best. They're are no tournaments or game footage that's determining this but simple assumptions.
If you can't do it right, they shouldn't do it at all. They will leave a bad taste in a lot of smash 4 fans and competitors.
You say that like all 80 combinations of customs are competitively viable.
Sure, it'd be nice if we can run w/e we want, but the technology isn't there for us. In the interest of time, the top 10 most used/most viable sets are used. No reason for Smash to take 3 days to get through pools because "I RUN 2232, NOT 2332! THIS COMPLETELY RUINS MY EVERYTHING EVER!"
You say that like all 80 combinations of customs are competitively viable.
Sure, it'd be nice if we can run w/e we want, but the technology isn't there for us. In the interest of time, the top 10 most used/most viable sets are used. No reason for Smash to take 3 days to get through pools because "I RUN 2232, NOT 2332! THIS COMPLETELY RUINS MY EVERYTHING EVER!"
How many are viable? You or nobody can give a distinct number on that question. Some may have more or less than others but that still doesn't mean we should limit ourselves to 10. That just forces the meta instead of letting it happen naturally when it comes to customs. Now that is something that I'm against.
Take a look at melee. What if I said that we can only use 12.5% of the cast. The whole case is not viable so it must be ok, right? That is only 4 characters in the game. Not many so let's double it to increase the options. We have a choice at 8 options. If we go by our first instincts on what we thought were "best". The list would look like this.
First tier list we made consist of...
Shiek
Fox
Falco
Marth
Mario?
Luigi?
Zelda?
Samus
Now that we had time to let the tier/ meta developed, we have a way better understanding of what the game can evolve into.
Most current tier list...
Sheik
Fox
Falco
Marth
Jiggs
Peach
Falcon
Ice climbers.
Way more respectable. We have a better understanding of the game. But still, we are limiting our options just like customs. People like axe or amsa would never get any attention or even be allowed to play in a tournament since they don't play one of the popular ones.
The real issue is a logistic issue. We should find a better way to run tournaments where it is possible to have all customs optional. Have TO and staff around to help upload the proper builds. Reduce coaching or time between sets so we don't extend the time being used. Maybe we can have a tournament app that can be DL by everybody that can coordinate/communicate with the masses. There is a way. We just need to stop being lazy on figuring out the issue.
An important thing to glean from this whole conversation is that like many new processes, incorporating customs will not immediately be smooth, efficient, and may even have issues with agreement (what sets should be legal, etc.)
However, from that, it is very important to note that the system should and will be redefined, and that the community in general should understand that this isn't an easy process to incorporate at all. From what we've learned in the past, we shouldn't be too preemptive in banning certain things, as time may show the ban had faulty logic. However, I'm certain there may be sets or combinations that have an exploit or glitch, or have Mach Tornado-like issues--and these can certainly be addressed and eliminated if needed.
I realize this doesn't contribute much to the actual discussion at hand, but it's food for thought.
How many are viable? You or nobody can give a distinct number on that question. Some may have more or less than others but that still doesn't mean we should limit ourselves to 10. That just forces the meta instead of letting it happen naturally when it comes to customs. Now that is something that I'm against.
Take a look at melee. What if I said that we can only use 12.5% of the cast. The whole case is not viable so it must be ok, right? That is only 4 characters in the game. Not many so let's double it to increase the options. We have a choice at 8 options. If we go by our first instincts on what we thought were "best". The list would look like this.
First tier list we made consist of...
Shiek
Fox
Falco
Marth
Mario?
Luigi?
Zelda?
Samus
Now that we had time to let the tier/ meta developed, we have a way better understanding of what the game can evolve into.
Most current tier list...
Sheik
Fox
Falco
Marth
Jiggs
Peach
Falcon
Ice climbers.
Way more respectable. We have a better understanding of the game. But still, we are limiting our options just like customs. People like axe or amsa would never get any attention or even be allowed to play in a tournament since they don't play one of the popular ones.
The real issue is a logistic issue. We should find a better way to run tournaments where it is possible to have all customs optional. Have TO and staff around to help upload the proper builds. Reduce coaching or time between sets so we don't extend the time being used. Maybe we can have a tournament app that can be DL by everybody that can coordinate/communicate with the masses. There is a way. We just need to stop being lazy on figuring out the issue.
Well, first, it's not hard to tell which customs are complete crap. See: most of Jigs, Most of Sheik's, Most of Diddy's, etc. In a lot of cases, the best custom is immediately obvious. In others, the worst is immediately obvious. I don't need a decade of time to see that. Just because something has a niche use that would be useful in 1 out of 100 matches does NOT mean that it is viable. It means it's niche. Until Nintendo offers further support, and until people are ok with a Smash Tournament taking up to an additional 1-2 minutes per GAME at ALL phases of a tournament, the most common and most viable (AKA non-niche, most used) sets will be used.
Don't like it? Develop a better system. Cause this is what we've got and I doubt you'd find anyone against having a better system. We shouldn't throw away an entire section of the roster movepool because you THINK being a special flower and using 3333 Jiggs or 2333 Sheik is worth ****ing up the viability of holding tournaments for the rest of us. And hell, if you think something is good and worth using and not Niche and shouldn't be uncommon, take it to the character boards in the respective custom moves thread. Cause you can either do that, not play, or settling for having what you can get, like I will for 2XX2 Dr Mario.
As for being to "lazy" to find a better system, I can guarantee that there has been more hours spent on figuring out a better system that allows us to stick to a reasonable time frame then you have hours of play in your entire smash career. Of course, it's easy to call people/groups lazy when you do no actual work yourself, huh?
Never been straw man'd so hard.
I didn't make an "argument" I made a statement that you are appealing to masses, that's pointing out a fallacy ad populum, not an argument, bro.
Define A, B, and C so it can actually be properly analyzed instead of just making a bold accusation of "flawed" so as to remove any strawmen in the audience, please & thank you.
Also saying that mob rule aka popularity shouldn't apply to a product of supply and demand is humoring as well, because even if we are going with minority rule here, one single but major venue has decided to try customs out (aka minority rule), so what's the harm if one major venue tries it? Answer: You fear is that it might catch on.
First of all, show how rulecrafting is "supply and demand".
Second, being against herd mentality does NOT equate to supporting a minority-rule. That would be foolish to assume, logically.
Third, rhetoric like pushing ideas someone is afraid that some kind of herd-mentality mob rule decisions would "catch on" is completely outside the realms of formal argument and just goes to sully the discussion. Instead I'll be waiting for your reasoning for assuming a "supply and demand" as well as work on the definitions of "A, B, and C".
Thanks.
T0MMY , you need to approach the debate by looking at the idea of what @
DunnoBro is saying; the meaning, not the language that encodes and transmits it. Focus on the points being made more than just how it's said.
