I can't beat Kirby, G&W, or Olimar!

[Admiral Pit]

I've beaten this guy plenty of times before. And now he uses Kirby to wreck havoc on my Bowser! He's a typical grab addict... at the beginning of the match he tries to d-throw to u-tilt, to another u-tilt and then u-air. I could not avoid D-throw to the first u-tilt. As expected, this Kirby does love aerial attacks and b-air is one of his common moves, and he does know how to spike.
His Olimar is a typical Grab addict as well, and well i just cant describe his annoyance.
G&W cheats and my U-smash gets pierced by that stupid D-air of his. He loves doing that f-air and b-air... I'm just going to say that he loves aerial attacks in general.
This person's tag is RAZER, and his name would be UltimateRazer (Ultmate... yea right cheater) and you can find him at http://brawlcommunity.freeforums.org/portal.php sometimes. You can play him there and observe his style.
You can also find me there as Admiral Bowser.

Since I'm afraid that this is getting outta hand, I must know how to Stop Kirby, Olimar, and G&W in general with Bowser. And yes, i do have anger issues about fighting those 3.

 

[DiasFlac]

I've been able to beat Kirby's with Bowser but maybe I'm not brawling the right Kirby players. G&W and Olimar on the other hand pretty much pwn my Bowser even if its not in the hands of a good player. (well I can beat newb G&W's but not Olimars)

Olimars tactics are tough to get by but its very much defeatable. Maybe someone with more exp as a Bowser player who has played against Olimars can help ya. I don't brawl Olimar players much with Bowser. Actually I haven't ran into a Olimar player in weeks.

-I don't complain about players tactics, I find away around them!

 

[Admiral Pit]

That does make sense...
You helped me boost my confidence a bit. I'll try again but i dont think I can beat him since he uses cheap chars.

 

[salaboB]

I recall reading that Olimar is a good one to douse regularily in fire, as it can kill his pikmin and is a good longer range move than most he has. Other than that, I don't really have much as I don't have any serious Olimar opponents.

 

[BadGuy]

For Olimar, I'd say it'd be best to stay grounded. All of Olimar's air attacks will out reach and out prioritize bowser.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Against anyone, stay grounded :<

Like Kirby, stick to ftilts and jabs to keep him out of range. Shorthop infinite to mess him up, and then moving in with a Bowsercide. With G & W, basically anything besides Bowser's ftilt is outprioritized, so you want to be on defense. Same with Olimar, depending on his Pikmin.

 

[KevinM]

Theres no such thing as a cheap character, thats scrub mentality..

and of course

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159717

 

[Super-Donovan-64]

You should stay in relatively close, whatever you do. I know that sounds stupid since Kirby uses his throws a lot, but trust me: Staying in close with Bowser can have its advantages. Dash throws are a good idea also.

 

[wk4c]

Once your getting owned by high damage grabs/fast combos from Kirby, do Bowsercide. Kirby cannot escape, trust me. And then just try to keep Kirby in control and DO NOT suicide. It seems really unfair playing vs Bowser as Kirby, cause it's almost too easy. But I'm sure it can be done.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Once your getting owned by high damage grabs/fast combos from Kirby, do Bowsercide. Kirby cannot escape, trust me. And then just try to keep Kirby in control and DO NOT suicide. It seems really unfair playing vs Bowser as Kirby, cause it's almost too easy. But I'm sure it can be done.

Um yeah Kirby can just hold into the stage if he's ****** you because you're on a much higher %

 

[smashbot226]

Ever tried dodging?

Yeah, that works wonders.

Otherwise, there's a flaw with his character: They're lightweights.

I mean they are REALLY light. A few hits can finish them.


Strats for Kirby:

If he's constantly rushing you with dash grabs, use Fire BReath to keep him away, and if he's still doing it, try to dodge the grab into a Flying Slam (NOT a Bowsercide). If you DO get caught in his cheap little combo, then if you get high enough on he first Utilt, Bowser Bomb him. You're heavier and stronger than him, but he's faster. Fortunately, you only need to hit him a few times before he gets dangerously high. Also, short hop Nairs work well against him.

Strats for MGNW:

Aerial lover, eh? Irritating, due to his Bair...

Well, my suggestion isn't Air games, cuz Bowser's isn't that good. Luckily, if he LOVEs doing aerial attacks, then a really simple counter is to roll out of the way and Dash A him while he's recovering. The best time is when he Dairs, then you can just roll and Ftilt him. MGNW is the easiest out of your problems. An aerial fanatic with MGNW is irritating, but not impossible. Just dodge and punish his mistakes with tilts. He's LIGHT, you're STRONG, perfect combo/

Strats for Olimar:

Definitely a hard one. He's got a projectile, more than half his moves have better priority than ALL of yours, and he's faster than the two above. So, how do you take this psychopath down?

His mistake is his grab overusage. Sure, he's got the best grab range, but that's also counterable. If you think he's sending out a pikmin to grab you, jump and use an Fair on him.
Also, you can't grab in the air, and you DO have an approach: Bowser Bomb. It is FAST and its only weakness is its punishibility if you miss, but it drops fast he may not have time to dodge. It also has Super Armor(?) during the drop, so no Uairs can stop you.

God, what else? Oh, he's light and kind of weak without purple Pikmin, and even then, his strength is medium level. You've got statistical advantages over him.

 

[Tenki]

Watch out for Red pikmin though.

They're invulnerable to fire moves. So that Olimar can grab, smash, or chuck them at you through your flame thrower.

weird noone's mentioned that :<

also, bowser does not have super armor during the drop. I'm pretty sure I u-aired Bowser out of his down-B.

...with Sonic.

 

[gorgon.]

Hey. I'm an Olimar user and a Bowser user. I might be able to help with tips against Olimar.

His Olimar is a typical Grab addict as well, and well i just cant describe his annoyance.

Lol, yeah we are annoying. His grab has crazy range and is quick. If he grabs way too often, try to stay out of his grab range. If he approches with a grab, flame him. If he tosses, keep your shield up and roll away. He'll most likely approach with some tosses if you dodge, so keep your flame up. Watch out for reds.
Wow, I just realized you have very little options against a good Olimar.

I recall reading that Olimar is a good one to douse regularily in fire, as it can kill his pikmin and is a good longer range move than most he has. Other than that, I don't really have much as I don't have any serious Olimar opponents.

Yes, this usually helps. It doesn't usually kill his Pikmin unless he is stupid enough to try to smash you while you are doing it, but it reaches farther and is a good shield against his smashes and grabs and is a decent damage builder. Not to mention your only ranged move.

For Olimar, I'd say it'd be best to stay grounded. All of Olimar's air attacks will out reach and out prioritize bowser.

Definitely not. Olimar ***** on the ground. He out-ranges you so much and can toss. I can only recommend running away and playing ridiculously defensive against a good Olimar. Bowser's approach is so easily countered by Olimar.

Also, you can't grab in the air, and you DO have an approach: Bowser Bomb. It is FAST and its only weakness is its punishibility if you miss, but it drops fast he may not have time to dodge. It also has Super Armor(?) during the drop, so no Uairs can stop you.

This helps. I don't think he can touch you with his beast USmash, either.

As an Olimar user and a Bowser user, I can safely say Olimar destroys slow, large targets. You have little chance unless the Olimar is a n00b. Sorry to say it.

Keeping your distance? He'll just get 100+ damage on you with his Toss.
Up close and personal? He'll grab you, shff you and smash you. He is faster, can out-prioritize and out-range you.
In the air? You have slightly more hope there, but not much. He out-prioritzes you again but his aerials have short range; oh, no, wait... so do yours. Your forward is is decently fast but limited in direction. The rest have no chance in landing unless the Olimar screws up.

I suggest playing extremely defensively. If you dodge the majority of his attacks, get a few quick swipes in there, and BBomb him while he's in the air, you may accumulate enough damage to hit him off the edge. The Olimar player's two weaknesses: light weight and bad recovery. If you knock him off, quickly go for the edgehog. If you can't make it, fire seems to be a good shield.

Wow, I just realized how stupid I sound. I'm talking as if I'm an Olimar pro. Well, keep in mind I'm no pro, but I think I know more about Olimar than anyone here (no offense.) Hope you keep my tips in mind.

 

[Sliq]

I've beaten this guy plenty of times before. And now he uses Kirby to wreck havoc on my Bowser! He's a typical grab addict... at the beginning of the match he tries to d-throw to u-tilt, to another u-tilt and then u-air. I could not avoid D-throw to the first u-tilt. As expected, this Kirby does love aerial attacks and b-air is one of his common moves, and he does know how to spike.
His Olimar is a typical Grab addict as well, and well i just cant describe his annoyance.
G&W cheats and my U-smash gets pierced by that stupid D-air of his. He loves doing that f-air and b-air... I'm just going to say that he loves aerial attacks in general.
This person's tag is RAZER, and his name would be UltimateRazer (Ultmate... yea right cheater) and you can find him at http://brawlcommunity.freeforums.org/portal.php sometimes. You can play him there and observe his style.
You can also find me there as Admiral Bowser.

Since I'm afraid that this is getting outta hand, I must know how to Stop Kirby, Olimar, and G&W in general with Bowser. And yes, i do have anger issues about fighting those 3.

 

[Buuman]

GW is pretty ****ing hax..especially good GWs, havent found a way around them yet. Olimar you should have no problem with if u space correctly and chase his *** off the edge, fire breathe to break his pikmen. I haven't had much exp against kirby yet, but when I do I'll let u know

 

[gorgon.]

GW is pretty ****ing hax..especially good GWs, havent found a way around them yet. Olimar you should have no problem with if u space correctly and chase his *** off the edge, fire breathe to break his pikmen. I haven't had much exp against kirby yet, but when I do I'll let u know

Yeah, a good G&W is hard to beat, but a good Olimar is even harder to beat.

Lol, space correctly? There is no space to go. If you're close, he'll **** you with his lagless range and super fast-prioritized shffs. If you're far, his Pikmin will beat on your head. You can't put up a fire shield and dodge forever. If you're farther... Bowser has no projectiles!
It's kind of hard to chase Olimar off the edge if you can't get near him!

 

[Admiral Pit]

I'm not worried about this now. I could hold my own a bit more.

 

[Buuman]

Gorgon...you're acting like Olimar is impossible to play against. Play smart against him. Keep out of his range while he throws pikmin..I usually punish when he runs out of pikmin. Idk what you're talking about when u say u cant get near him? xD
For example..you chuck pikmin..I jump over and turn around a klaw...pops u into the air..edge guard from there..? Thats off the top of my head. Spacing is one major key to this game. And olimar is NOT harder to beat. Play the game more before you make False Assumptions. Go ahead, play Omegablackmages' GW..tell me how much damage u can get off on him. Against olimar..you have options..firebreath in the air to break his pikmin..-_-
Ive played against a good olimar and beaten him multiple times with bowser (Darkcloud)..you're in no position to tell me that. I suggest u play some good bowsers. Yes olimar is tough to beat..but NOWHERE NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. The only impossible matchup I personally think, is against a good GW

 

[gorgon.]

Gorgon...you're acting like Olimar is impossible to play against. Play smart against him. Keep out of his range while he throws pikmin..I usually punish when he runs out of pikmin. Idk what you're talking about when u say u cant get near him? xD
For example..you chuck pikmin..I jump over and turn around a klaw...pops u into the air..edge guard from there..? Thats off the top of my head. Spacing is one major key to this game. And olimar is NOT harder to beat. Play the game more before you make False Assumptions. Go ahead, play Omegablackmages' GW..tell me how much damage u can get off on him. Against olimar..you have options..firebreath in the air to break his pikmin..-_-
Ive played against a good olimar and beaten him multiple times with bowser (Darkcloud)..you're in no position to tell me that. I suggest u play some good bowsers. Yes olimar is tough to beat..but NOWHERE NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. The only impossible matchup I personally think, is against a good GW

I never once said Olimar is impossible to play against. Any good player could bring down a good Olimar. But Olimar is overpowered. This is no longer an Olimar vs G&W arguement. I realize G&W has the potential to be better than Olimar, they are both good characters. But in the Olimar vs Bowser respect, Bowser has little chance. Bowser could beat an Olimar, I never said it was impossible. But their difference in the tier list is a key determining factor in the outcome of an Olimar vs Bowser match. Bowser is just so big and heavy a target it's hard to dodge the toss. He is prone to juggling and throwing.

I don't know what Olimar would let himself run out of Pikmin. Most Pikmin thrown are killed letting the Olimar pluck more. If not... well I don't usually let myself get into this position. And you are in no position to tell me I haven't played the game enough. Nice try though.

And I suppose I should rephrase my previous statement: it is hard to get near a good Olimar.

I throw Pikmin... you don't jump over them. I usually toss while I'm in the air, so they hit you whether you're in the air or on the ground (unless you dodge.)

Yes, I realize now I have said things that made it seem like Bowser will never beat a good Olimar, and I apologize for this. I'm not trying to turn this into an arguement, but you must take the tier list into consideration. In most mock tier lists (which may be generally accurate) Bowser is much lower than Olimar. That is an undisputed fact. Therefore, even without considering the options Bowser has against Olimar, the Olimar will win 7 times out of 10.

Summary: It is not impossible for Bowser to beat Olimar, it is hard. I don't wish to have a war with you on this topic, but I must point out these things.

 

[Sliq]

Most high tier players are *******, and rely way to heavily on their character to carry them to victory, giving you a huge advantage.

Seriously, people just go on auto-pilot with Olimar and GW, if you can't read them, you need to learn 2 play.

The only thing I hate about Olimar is that I never know which ****ing move he's doing. He's like ****ing microscopic. It is hard as **** to see that little ***got, let alone what move he is doing.

 

[The Star King]

Since Kirby's one of the main characters I use in Brawl, I know from experience that it's extremely easy to do a 70% combo on big characters. (DeDeDe, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Charizard, etc.)

Sorry, mate.

 

[gorgon.]

Most high tier players are *******, and rely way to heavily on their character to carry them to victory, giving you a huge advantage.

Seriously, people just go on auto-pilot with Olimar and GW, if you can't read them, you need to learn 2 play.

The only thing I hate about Olimar is that I never know which ****ing move he's doing. He's like ****ing microscopic. It is hard as **** to see that little ***got, let alone what move he is doing.

I hope you're not talking about me. I take no offfense (if you are) but you're partially right. Some players cruise on their character's top tier status (*cough* Metaknight) to ensure them victory, winning only slightly on skill and much on their characters' abilities. That is why I also play Luigi and Bowser (besides the fact that they're two of my fav characters.) Neither are outstanding, so skill is actually required to fight. However, that doesn't mean a n00b can beat anyone because they use G&W.

Wait, that's the only thing you hate about Olimar? Not even the toss?

 

[CervPurp63]

olimar annoys me because people can just mash forward B and grab to rack up insane amounts of damage. im not claiming to be any better. I use DDD (broken chain grab), Game and Watch ("wtf, how did that hit me" attacks) and Metaknight (slash, slash, slash, wait... slash). But Olimar is just frustrating, because people that play Olimar usually dont use anyone else (which is one of the things i respect about you Gorgon, you use different characters). They can only throw little flower aliens and grab across Asia, but other than that, they don't fight you. Its lame.

 

[Albericht]

I can relate to your situation. I have this friend who is a pain in the #%! with GNW. At first, I couldn't find any way around him with all his cheap high priority moves, especially dair. That move can even break through shields if youve been shielding too much. Your best chance against dair would have to be to dodge, but not just any dodge. I find that dodge in place is better than roll to one side, since GNW dair is rather quick to recover and you usually dont get enough time to ftilt. However, if you dodge in place you can follow it up with whirling fortress. You should try it... its done wonders for me. If youre airborne, dodge to one side and he will most likely go right past you. Then time it so that you can connect your sideb before landing. The other annoying GNW move is the bair. It lands multiple hits and is very difficult to grab while shielding. So youre trump card for that move would be to simply use whirling fortress, but be prepared to use it imediately a second time as it is usually cancelled by GNW. An easier though less effective way would be to shield during the attack and follow it up with whirling fortress. Again, be prepared to use it immediately a second time.

Well, I hope this helps with GNW. The effectiveness of these antiGNW maneuvers is so impressive that my friend refuses to use GNW against my Bowser.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

The only thing I hate about Olimar is that I never know which ****ing move he's doing. He's like ****ing microscopic. It is hard as **** to see that little ***got, let alone what move he is doing.

Somehow I have that problem with Wario.


I hate G&W and Olimar. Not because they're good or excellent vs Bowser. I hate them because they are REALLY ANNOYING, seriously I could not see how G&W or olimar could be more ********. The only character I hate more than them is R.O.B. who can go diaf.

 

[Admiral Pit]

What's worse is that Im losing to a Pit that rivals my Advanced Pit... but this person isnt really a pro, he just found info on some of the tech I use here, and used it against me, and now Im losing to him! Normally he'd be easy to beat, but he does know arrow looping like I do. However, I think he does cower somewhat often. I hate losing to noobs who then come up beating me a short time after I beat them well!
I know how to KO him, but he disrupts my strategies (Includes the infinite jump) with those arrows. First, Im going to try being patient with him, then towards aggression.
Its not that i dont hate Pit (I like him) but its annoying when some1 uses the characters I use to beat me. It's like he was trying to mimic me...

 

[shockfrost]

KIRBY
Kirby is a floater, so you'll have difficulty playing a good air game here.
He is light. Be patient and tag him a couple times. You should be focusing on your TILTS and not your smashes. If he stones, roll and grab. It's not common for most Bowsers to develop this habit, but on Kirby it's a good plan.

Don't bother with Firebreath, just swing away.
Twice in a match, hop up and punish him for thinking he owns the sky with a quick FAir. This will make him a bit wary and probably catch him off guard both times.

G&W
G&W is very nimble. You should be focusing on your longer attacks, to force him into less tappy logic. Bake this guy. Hop and Firebreath. Jump and Firebreath. Firebreath counter. Get hit every time; just trade the damage so you can KO him when the chance appears. Use your weight.

Whirling Fortress at him if you're not sure what he's up to - you won't get a ton of damage, but then, you don't need a ton. Get in the air against this guy; don't hang out on the ground. I know what you're thinking - the air is more grim than the ground. But trading hits up there will get you SOME damage, and it keeps him from exploiting his floaty moves on a stable ground enemy who can be outprioritized. A couple good tags and you can look for a KO. Swap damage whenever you can, look for a Smash, Klaw or Bomb, and force the issue - size matters, and you are bigger.

OLIMAR
A nimble projectile user, Olimar has crazy good defense. He is difficult to handle.

Do not go to him; but do not let him dictate how he will approach you, either. Wait for him to come, then break up the position. Get in the air. Open with Firebreath. Whirl at him repeatedly. Start rolling. Anything to break up the situation.

Olimar IS light. And he will go out early with a few tags. The trick is, laying your claws on him. Keep the fire coming. Try to alternate between quick air spats, and ground game nonsense. When all else fails, take some chances with heavy smashes. This may kill the pikmin even if it misses Olimar, and while this may only buy you a few tenths of a second, every moment counts.

Point your flame high and use Firebreath on Olimar as he dips below the stage on a Recovery. Keep burning him. This can kill his pikmin retinue and shorten his recovery chain. Without those pikmin, you have him, so try to burn them every chance you get while Olimar is coming back, and any time he thinks he can tomfool his pikmin around you in a swarm, scorch em' down.
EDIT: Down Smash is also a wonderworker if they are swarming all over your shell.

 

[DanGR]

bowser's fair outprioritizes all of Olimar's pikmin moves...( I think)

 

[bLeAkWuN]

my boy sketch plays a mean olimar....he knows that he has to stay in the center of the stage to prevent anything from happening to him....nd out of the air, so ill chase him to the ledge nd he would go Fsmash downsmash and throw crazy...ill see if i can get a video to post up....olimar is really hard, but now unbeatable by bowser....G&W is almost unbeatable...it can be done but still takes more concentration to beat then normal....olimar can put alot of damage on bowser....sad thing is, the flame doesnt work on him....he runs perfectly away from it nd throws pikfuks right over it, even after i tilt it up! WTF!....u guys have to see it yourself, ill post a vid real soon...pce my bowza mains...

 

[Admiral Pit]

Olimar, being the cheap Grab-addicted char with overpowered throws that he has (Ness' throws are understandable), hurts Bowser and basically every other character. If I try not to approach them, then they throw their little Pikmin.
I suppose Aggression isnt the answer?

 

[TurtleSim]

Just counterpick Olimar..

 

[brentlouis]

Game and Watch
it is essential to dodge the ke, dont try to out prioritize it, also watch out for the down smash right after key, you must shield, after that you can punish them with a short hop fortress, a smash or fire breath

Kirby
use fire breath to slow his grab approach, constantly dodge so that he can't grab, bowser f-tilt is also good for spacing

Olimar
um... no idea, i have not played a great olimar but, when playing them i infinite jump inro a "wavefire" for pressure, i also try to fair approach, most olimar that i have played do not know about their amazing air game, the big problem is, Olimar is just so small arrg

 

[gorgon.]

Olimar, being the cheap Grab-addicted char with overpowered throws that he has (Ness' throws are understandable), hurts Bowser and basically every other character. If I try not to approach them, then they throw their little Pikmin.
I suppose Aggression isnt the answer?

Cheap is a john.

Really, since Bowser is such a big target, it's hard to avoid Olimar's Forward B. Usually I cut the distance between us by jumping over his Pikmin, and firebreath him (being careful not to get in range of his grab or smashes.). If Pikmin latch onto you when you land from the jump, oh well. You're so big there's really nothing you can do (unless you're not on FD.)

If your Oli opponent is a grab addict (if he's good, he will be,) stay in the air. Again, stay high to avoid his Pikmin and try to firebreath him from the air to stop him from smashing you; your firebreath out-ranges his grab and out-priortizes his smashes. Stop firing before he DIs out and try to land some tilts, jabs, or a Klaw on him.

Again, just try to get Oli close to the edge with some jabs and tilts after an aerial'd firebreath. As soon as Oli's off the stage, he doesn't have many more options. Fair him is he's close and edgehog him.

(Keep in mind that these are just suggestions, not really set in stone Olimar counters. Just try and see what happens, I'm only trying to help.))

 

[pnoid]

try the infinite jump thingy-- i'm sure u can find it on youtube

 

[BrianTheLion]

i hate fighting G@W with boozer

 

[degypr]

I'm regulary facing a certain Olimar and Game&Watch with Bowser. I'd suggest firebreating the crap out of Olimar to kill all of his Pikmin (like already said) and use Dsmash often when you are close to him since it comes up pretty quicky, kills pikmin (at least I think so), and you can then follow up with a Uair to kill Olimar pretty quick.

And when you're both down to 1 stock simply Bowsercide him. Bowsercides are your friends.


For Game&Watch I don't know exactly. Just play your style and learn his strategies. The Olimar I face spams his Forward B and gets 9s about 40% of the time he hits me. It's crazy. Also, Game&Watch people have a tendancy to use his Dair (the Key) after and Up B. Take advantage of the lag there when avoiding it.

 

[Onxy]

Try to get Olimar in the air above you, from my experience, he doesn't do so well. Stay close to Olimar, he can over-shoot his grab, and shield often so he doesn't spam you, then shield grab him. Don't roll to much either; it's very punishable.

What does that mean? No johns, or whatever...?

 

[IDK]

don't forget that brawl is more of a rock/scissors game than melee was rock paper scissors. grabs do not have as much affect. they will mess with your head and make you think you are getting your *** kicked and give him the control of the match while you are actually doing more damage. oh... and gw always wins. its fact. pwnsicle in a 2d old game box. fsmash kills pikmin. edgehog olimar... see if he tries to stagespike you... even if he does he'll die no matter what so it'll be like a suicide. you can use that to even it out if theyre winning on that stock.