I am still getting powned by Wolfs... >_>

[PRiDE]

Sigh.. Probably one of my worst performances so far happened last Friday when I got obliterated by yet another Wolf. Destroyed.. He shield pressured me so bad that there was nothing I could do. I couldn't out camp him thanks to lasers. I couldn't approach him due to lasers. I couldn't melee him thanks to constant forward and down smash spamming. Pivot grabs were the only thing that seemed to get through.. It was an utter disgrace. This all comes right after I had beaten Ninja Link (a guy who just beat m2k at at an east coast major) a week ago. Ninja link is a ten times better player than the kid I faced and yet there was nothing I could do. I have had wolf problems since day 1 and I still have them 7 months later.. Has ANYONE found ANYTHING that works consistently and well against him? Or is it really just my problem with Wolf... Any scrub can pick up Wolf for a day and still beat me.. >_>

By far Wolf is Yoshi's worst match up in my opinion.

Easiest match ups so far is Wario and scrub Meta Knights who don't know how to tornado over pivot grabs.

 

[Mmac]

I found Long Hoping and Counterpicking with Platforms to be helpful

Oh, and I also freaken hate those types of Wolf's

 

[Opfer]

I really agree that Wolf is one of the most frustrating ones. Especially since pretty much any n00b can pick him up and do nothing but FSmash, DSmash, Lasers and Shieldroll and give Yoshi a very hard time.

For getting shield pressured, I found this to work:

Against FSmash: If powershielded or hit by second hitbox only, DSmash, otherwise FTilt or shieldgrab.
Against DSmash: If powershielded, FTilt or shieldgrab, otherwise you're in trouble, all you can do there is try and bait a FSmash to proceed as above, or try and get out of there (shorthopped airdodge could work).

Above strategies aren't proven to work, maybe the Wolf I played just kept messing up, but these pretty much always worked.

For approach, you'll need to get creative and play mindgames on him since he'll always punish you if you, say, put a BAir into his shield and don't manage to shieldstab him in the process.

Hope this helps.

 

[PRiDE]

I am completely wrong here or is it my understanding that Yoshi does not have a power shield..

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi does have a powershield...

The reason why this matchup seems soo hard is because you have to be at a certain distance to keep him from using lasers (it's about as close to him but just about at the tip of his Fsmash range. This is probably the hardest thing to do since it's really hard to keep that same spacing throughout the match). Being so close to him can cause you to get hit by the sword of his gun (something you don't want to happen).

If you can see him coming with the Fsmash and Dsmash, then Spotdodging can allow you to counter him pretty decently. If he's aerial, I'd probably have to say that being grounded is more beneficial, unless he's going to Bair (pivot grab it). Being grounded gives you an adavantage than his aerials since you can Usmash and space Tilts. Oh yeah, Nair is a tad annoying but if you can get a Dsmash through it, then it'll stop the approach.

IMO, Dsmash is a great use in this match since you need something quick to counter the lag he has in some of his atks. I hope this helped you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wolf gave me some serious issues at FAST1, because I wasn't used to playing against a good one. I didn't know he had the aerial mobility of Wario; it allows him to go crazy on offense.

Lasers shouldn't be an issue. It's only 5% or so per shot, and he can't combo out of a shot.

Do Up-B eggs hurt a Wolf if he's using Down-B, if you aim it only near him? Might be nice if it works.

Yoshi's shield and roll screws him over on defense, but at least you have your double-jump. Watch out for B-Airs and grabs, and try to get him above you. Pivot grabs in general or a running grab to punish a missed Smash is nice for that. Wolf doesn't have much when he's right above you. Perhaps stop a short-hop barrage with a double-jump into something like a N-Air?

I'll try messing around with it. I'm toying with Yoshi and Wolf a bit now.

Easiest match ups so far is Wario and scrub Meta Knights who don't know how to tornado over pivot grabs.

Makes me feel good about myself.

Pride is too good. <3

 

[PRiDE]

Wolf gave me some serious issues at FAST1, because I wasn't used to playing against a good one. I didn't know he had the aerial mobility of Wario; it allows him to go crazy on offense.

Lasers shouldn't be an issue. It's only 5% or so per shot, and he can't combo out of a shot.

Do Up-B eggs hurt a Wolf if he's using Down-B, if you aim it only near him? Might be nice if it works.

Yoshi's shield and roll screws him over on defense, but at least you have your double-jump. Watch out for B-Airs and grabs, and try to get him above you. Pivot grabs in general or a running grab to punish a missed Smash is nice for that. Wolf doesn't have much when he's right above you. Perhaps stop a short-hop barrage with a double-jump into something like a N-Air?

I'll try messing around with it. I'm toying with Yoshi and Wolf a bit now.


Makes me feel good about myself.

Pride is too good. <3

Of course Reflex there is always the occasional prodigy Wario player, such as yourself, that on occasion I find myself losing a 5 dollar MM to ;P How are things?! You are awesome for trying out Yoshi!

 

[Scala]

Uh, I'm pretty sure yoshi doesn't have a powershield

 

[ADHD]

Just go falco and grab to dthrow until its over with.

 

[Shiri]

Yoshi can powershield.

However, just like Melee, it's effects are negligible. That is to say, he does not reap the benefits of powershielding (dropping shield to instantly counterattack, mainly). At least, my testing up to this point has supported the idea that Yoshi does not reap powershielding benefits. I may be wrong.

 

[PRiDE]

I agree with Scala.. He doesn't power shield at all.. Not once have I heard the "clang" that you hear when one power shields nor have I been able to instantly counter after perfectly blocking a projectile..

 

[bigman40]

You won't hear the powershield. It only gives the quick "shine" and that's it. It was the same in melee where you didn't hear a clang.

@ Shiri: He does have the benefits to Powershielding, but yoshi's Powershield is about as fast as a normal character's shielding (not powershielded).

 

[Shiri]

Historically, Yoshi's powershielding doesn't make the sound that everyone else's makes.

Instead, it's a more visual cue. It looks very similar to regular powershields in Melee with the white action lines around the character. I'll go through some of the videos here and see if I spot any powershields for you to observe. One reason you may not be powershielding is also the fact that the shield still adjusts to the egg shape around Yoshi's curled up body--just as in Melee, this makes powershielding, especially frontal powershielding, quite difficult as there is a very very small margin of error for completing the powershield. Powershielding from above and from behind are much much easier. Unfortunately, my video data for parts three and four of my Melee project regarding Yoshi's hitboxes and shields was corrupted long ago and I haven't had the opportunity to work on it since. If I get the chance, I'll try to dig up some screenshots of Yoshi's shield and hitboxes in action from Melee so you can see where he can and cannot powershield attacks and projectiles.

And again, you can't instantly counter after powershielding because, as far as I've been able to test, Yoshi's shield does not allow him to reap the benefits of a powershield.

I mean, I guess we can say that Yoshi can't powershield in the sense that, since he doesn't get to use the benefits of the technique, he might as well not be able to do it at all. I could go with that. But as far as facts and figures are concerned, Yoshi is able to achieve powershielding.

Edit for phat questionz: Scatz, are you serious? I will have to test some more scenarios for this further, then. I would hope Yoshi is able to do SOMETHING out of powershielding this time around. >_<

 

[bigman40]

I'm serious. There were times when I powershielded and I was able to counter with a few atks of my own (mostly Dsmash, and maybe Fsmash if there's enough lag). The opponents still have their lag from hitting the shield, but when you powershield, you'll have about the same time to react as mario just taking down his shield and countering (when he didn't powershield).

 

[Opfer]

Yeah, it seems to me that the powershield doesn't do as much for Yoshi as it does for other characters (i.e. go from shield straight to attack), but it still removes some of the shield lag and (maybe even more importantly) it doesn't make you slide backwards. That little bit can give you the edge needed to punish a Wolf for a shielded DSmash.

 

[Talazala]

One thing that gives me nightmares is Wolf + Battlefield. Don't the platforms ocassionally hook Yoshi's eggtosses? Wolf's laser is so easy to spam, and Yoshi's arial attack from above and downB will all be stopped by the platform, if not by his Warum (hehe, Wolf's from Germany). Also,Yoshi's bair can be stopped by Wolf's fsmash.

A question, how do I approach a Wolf on BattleField?

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I think the best thing to do in this case is just counterpick a different character. Wolf's lasers and f-air alone will eat through most everything you try to do. I hear shiek can tiltlock Wolf very well, you might want to look into her.

 

[Opfer]

One thing that gives me nightmares is Wolf + Battlefield. Don't the platforms ocassionally hook Yoshi's eggtosses? Wolf's laser is so easy to spam, and Yoshi's arial attack from above and downB will all be stopped by the platform, if not by his Warum (hehe, Wolf's from Germany). Also,Yoshi's bair can be stopped by Wolf's fsmash.

A question, how do I approach a Wolf on BattleField?

When I feel that I can't approch directly in any way, I usually just go crazy with mindgames. For example, DJ across the entire stage trying to bait out an aerial approach by Wolf, then airdodge through it, and once you're below him, you have an advantage. But that's just an example, you'll need to get really creative to approach Wolf since none of the "standard" approches work very well (he can easily shieldroll to evade BAirs and DAirs, for example).

Another good counterpick may be Pikachu, since his DSmash will easily suck in Wolf's FSmash and shorthopped neutral B can interrupt his projectile spam.

 

[Deleted member]

Rising nairs work, or u could SPOTDODGE *gasp* his smashes O_O.
Lots of jabs against spammy wolves, no doin any laggy moves, ull get smashed =/
I beat a wolf in a tourny yesterday, he wasnt too spammy, altho their camping is pretty effective against yoshi, it aint good enough.

Haha, counterpick lol. Yoshi doesnt need a counterpick, he can beat the whole cast, and im sure PRiDE aint counterpicking.

 

[Shiri]

Spotdodge a forward smash and you're eating his jab combo.

It's best to just move away from it, I think.

 

[PRiDE]

Yeah, counter picking is out of the question. And honestly, spot dodging wolfs smashes sound good on paper, but my reflexes ain't all that fast to do it accurately EVERY time. It is just too fast and to spammy to predict each time. And like Shiri said, when you do that Wolf can follow up immediately with jab combos, down smash etc...

sigh.. Thanks for the suggestions everyone but these are all things I thought of. I guess I will just have to pray the match up never happens again. >_>

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Yeah, counter picking is out of the question. And honestly, spot dodging wolfs smashes sound good on paper, but my reflexes ain't all that fast to do it accurately EVERY time. It is just too fast and to spammy to predict each time. And like Shiri said, when you do that Wolf can follow up immediately with jab combos, down smash etc...

sigh.. Thanks for the suggestions everyone but these are all things I thought of. I guess I will just have to pray the match up never happens again. >_>

Huh? What's wrong with counterpicking?

 

[bigman40]

Spotdodge a forward smash and you're eating his jab combo.

It's best to just move away from it, I think.

You can beat his jab combo after you spotdodge..... >_>

 

[Deleted member]

Spotdodge a forward smash and hes eating your jab combo.

Fixed, take that shiri. Seriously, if hes being spammy, then that means when u get close hes smashing. Both smashes get spotdodged and he eats a jab or ftilt. U dont need reaction time, just prediction. Im not sure, but maybe yoshi can shield it and shield grab the end of the fsmash, it has uber lag.

 

[PRiDE]

I don't counter pick because I use Yoshi ...period.. I never switch. Unfortunately this tends to lead into a couple of a unnecessary losses.

 

[Shiri]

Unless I'm ridiculously slow (which I very well may be)...

...Wolf can abuse IASA to go right into jab combo, which beats Yoshi's in range, speed, and priority; even if the Wolf is slow and you hit with your first jab, he can pseudo-CC right into his own and hit with all three. It's pretty dumb.

I'm not saying he's unbeatable or that his smashes are super amazing, but I think it's just better to get out of the way and reset than to be in an unnecessarily disadvantageous position.

 

[bigman40]

I just don't do things the hard way.

Ah that explains it Shiri. XD jkjk

But yeah, I know what you mean, but it's better getting hit by those than getting hit by the smashes. Being in his face to punish those smashes I don't see as a disadvantageous position (as being far away from him is worse)

 

[Deleted member]

Unless I'm ridiculously slow (which I very well may be)...

...Wolf can abuse IASA to go right into jab combo, which beats Yoshi's in range, speed, and priority; even if the Wolf is slow and you hit with your first jab, he can pseudo-CC right into his own and hit with all three. It's pretty dumb.

I'm not saying he's unbeatable or that his smashes are super amazing, but I think it's just better to get out of the way and reset than to be in an unnecessarily disadvantageous position.

...Ur lame. XD

Well it works for me, ima keep doin it until it stops workin =P

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I don't counter pick because I use Yoshi ...period.. I never switch. Unfortunately this tends to lead into a couple of a unnecessary losses.

Everyone has bad match-ups, not counterpicking is just asking to get destroyed =/. It's like trying to play Pokemon with just one pokemon. Well suit yourself I suppose.

 

[Opfer]

Well, I don't want to counterpick myself (that is, I'm not going to torneys, so playing is always for the purpose of getting better, and better with Yoshi, that is), it was just a suggestion.

Spotdodging a FSmash will work wonders if he's so close to you that it'll go right through you, because you can turnaround and DSmash / FTilt him in his lag.

Also, shieldgrabbing a FSmash has always worked for me so far, and throwing him from the stage sets him up for some eggz, so that's pretty nice.

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi doesn't get Destroyed by anybody. All of his matches are very possible to win.

Yoshi isn't one of those characters that is helpless against some other character because of some stupid infinite.

And Brawl =/= Pokemon. If were just Counterpicking all the time, then it's nothing more than a more dynamic version of Rock Paper Scissors.

Plus it's completely not in the spirit of fighting games. You don't see Maxi Mains counterpicking Kilik's with Siegfried.

 

[Shiri]

I will counterpick the **** out of that annoying ho. Kilik FOR THE LOSE.

UGH he's like the Diddy of Soul Calibur, WTF.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Yoshi doesn't get Destroyed by anybody. All of his matches are very possible to win.

Yoshi isn't one of those characters that is helpless against some other character because of some stupid infinite.

And Brawl =/= Pokemon. If were just Counterpicking all the time, then it's nothing more than a more dynamic version of Rock Paper Scissors.

Plus it's completely not in the spirit of fighting games. You don't see Maxi Mains counterpicking Kilik's with Siegfried.

Wolf?

Brawl IS a more dynamic version of Rock, Paper, Scissors, except less balanced.

I believe winning is in the spirit of fighting games. There is no rule that says you have to play only one character. Proud of your main? That's fine, just don't get upset when your counter pops up, it was your own fault for not taking precautions right? I say, why try to put a square peg in a round hole? Pick the right tool (character) for the job, get it done, and then go back to your main. Better than choking on your pride trying to force something that isn't working imo. But hey, it's your call.

 

[Bwett]

Against wolf, like others have said, you need to stick to lagless moves. Pay more attention to your tilts because they will keep you pretty well spaced against wolf, especially ftilt and dtilt. Try to be in the air as much as possible. Also, stay at mid range. The perfect distance is right outside his forward smash range. You want to egg spam to the point that you force him to approach you.

Because his approach isn't as good as yours, when he finally loses patience and approaches you, then you use retreating bairs. The second a good bair hits, follow with ftilt or utilt. From that, odds are he is gonna spam shine so pivot grab it.

Your ultimate goal is to get him off the ledge due to his horrible recovery. Because of his laggy aerials, he can't risk using too many aerials off the edge, so odds are, when he is able to use up-b or side-b safely, he will use it. The second you get him off the edge, just bum rush him with any of your aerials, preferably nair, fair, or dair. After you hit with any of them, immediately go for the ledge and grab it. If wolf uses his recovery instantly, you will probably still have your invincibility frames so he will die. If he waits a second, quickly do an ECE to regain your invincibility on the ledge and you'll be set.

If you are near the edge, try using dtilt to knock him off or grab release. When wolf falls, an egglay will easily take him out.

Here is a video of me vs. a wolf where i use a bit of what i said. Hope all this helps you out, dude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JURgxqKKLdU

 

[Kiwikomix]

Call me crazy, but I'm starting to believe that Yoshi is completely playable against all characters, with the possible exceptions of Falco and G-Dub.

@ EGGMAN: The whole "counterpicking vs main pride" thing has always existed in fighting games, and if someone really does refuse to switch characters, there's nothing you can do to change their mind.

 

[Mmac]

Wolf is not a Yoshi counter. Pride just doesn't know how to deal with Wolf, and that's exactly what he's asking help for.

I never seen counterpicking in Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur, or Virtual Fighter. Hell, I barley saw any Counterpicking in Melee except for the very Bottom Tier characters.

Yoshi isn't a character that requires Counterpicking for certain characters, because, again, Yoshi has good matchups and doesn't need to.

I'm just a guy who doesn't like Counterpicking in general. Winning is true, but it's not the spirit of it. I would gladly Sacrifice a few wins to stick with my main. It just doesn't seem right just using someone else to cover the weaknesses. I rather just ride it out and play smart, actually learning how to deal with those characters

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I'm just saying it's a legitimite strategy. If you REALLY want to beat those Wolfs it's the best and most efficient course of action. You guys made it sound like switching is some kind of sin or something, which isn't really true.

And bwett, he can reflect your eggs, and you can't punish him unless you were already pretty close to him, in which case you probably would not be throwing eggs anyway. From the OP it sounds like Pride is having trouble with a campy laser sort of wolf, so trying punish his approach may not be an option here. Also note that his lasers will eat through your b-air and other ariels.

 

[Opfer]

Well, it's not a sin, but I look at it this way:

If I "give up" and use a different character to counterpick someone, I avoid a weakness of my main (in this case, Yoshi's crappy defensive game). Although, this weakness will most likely be present in other matchups as well, maybe not as much, but it's still a weakness. On the other hand if I stick with my main, it's exactly these "bad" matchups, that will really get me to think about covering up my weaknesses. In this case, the Wolf matchup made me do some tests with Yoshi's shield and ground dodge possibilities, and now I know exactly what screws me, and it helps me avoid making these mistakes in other matchups as well.

I do see that there is a point in counterpicking though, I just wouldn't do it, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is completely playable against every character in the game, including falco and gdubs.
Lots of people counterpicked in melee, it was a big part. If someone wants to CP, nothing wrong with that, same with not CPing.

 

[PRiDE]

Shiri I might go to that tourn next week.. in NY .. YOU need to enter ! We need to bring up Yoshi's placing on the tourney lists..