I am disappointed with Kirby in 3.6

[TheGravyTrain]

This is a problem many pm players seemingly dont understand. They see nerfs as a way to tone op characters down. But that's not always the case. In this case, they are getting rid of design elements that dont align with their goals. I see people here who want Kirby to be about reverse cutter spikes, kirbycides, breaking juggles with down b, wavelanding out of cutter dash, etc. Now obviously I am not super knowledgeable of how effective/cheesy/op these were, that's not my point. My point is that the PMDT probably is seeing things that are cheesy and aren't aligning with their view of the game.

Now some may think "well duh, isn't that obvious?". It isn't but there is more. I also see comparisons to other characters. There is the whole melee issue, but its still disingenuous to compare. Since the new direction pm has taken, some characters have more "jank" then others. So obviously some characters need more revisions to remove these tools. When they start finishing they will be at a place where they can start realizing the characters place without all of the "jank". You can go hear Odds' thoughts on Bowser and he justifies apparent nerfs by saying that Bowser is at a much better place going forward. Think of the nerfs that way, abeit on a smaller scale.

 

[Phan7om]

I need to like that post more times than 1. Its what I was trying to say, just 100x better.

 

[FreeGamer]

Nerfs in each patch aren't as bad once you remember it's still a work in progress. Kirby was built around 3 moves in his debut, but his design hasn't changed to accommodate the nerfs to his original cornerstones. What we have now is likely a placeholder while they figure out a design that fits more with their goals for 4.0 rather than feeling like a stale leftover from 3.0.

 

[Jinjo64]

I hope they find something because I haven't touched kirby in weeks. Character is just eh. Kind of how meta knight was in 3.5.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Also, worth noting, if your main strategy was reverse up b spikes, it was a very shallow strategy. Calling that your playstyle is just absurd. Rude, but true. Also, looking at the change list, they made it a spike (meaning it was a meteor). So you were abusing their lack of mu knowledge, which if they were any good would eventually learn the counterplay, making it much less important of a change. I personally love this character and all the little things he's got going for him. I see copy starshot fixes, maybe a few touches to make dair even better on stage, and a few other small changes would be appreciated, but Kirby is in a good spot imo. I know the feeling when someone who doesn't main your character endlessly claims your character is good when you don't, but its easy to get caught up in the mu's and your own flaws that you blame the character too much.

tl;dr Play the character, do cool stuff, cool stuff gets removed? Find more cool stuff and make sure to appreciate the smaller touches...

 

[FreeGamer]

His kit is too centralized around Dash Attack, and his ground and air speeds are too slow to leave much room for creativity. He doesn't need to be gutted/overhauled, but some QOL tweaks would be much appreciated.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

It's kinda sad seeing people say how they want to drop the character. There was four changes, all of which don't change that much. Not to mention, you have work arounds to all of his nerfs. You want to spike? You can still spike from on stage, have done it many times. You want reverse edge guards? Begin the cutter from below the stage. You want to use dash effectively? Go through your opponent so it's safe. Kirby still has an amazing dash attack, even after patch. The stone not safe anymore? Only use it when it's absolutely necessary, it's still a decent kill option for floaties and a good way to armor through attacks off the top. Up smash is... different? No one used up smash nearly as much as down smash or side smash. But I prefer it in 3.6 for the speed.

Kirby is pretty much, the same character as he was in 3.5. Any difference you're feeling is probably just a placebo effect.

 

[G13_Flux]

Kirbys da didn't need nerfing and swallowcide should be a big part of his play imo

using neutral b to help gimp already is a big part of his play. have you ever seen chu dat play him?

I still don't get why kirby got the nerfs and not falco :\

kirby hardly got nerfed. the only thing thats bad is the dash attack BKB and KBG adjustment, but that comes from a global design change that the PMDT has been tweaking around the cast on everyone. up b cutter spike actually got buffed, in that it has a better angle now. I understand that you cant just reverse ledge grab for free now, but when you look at this from a competitive standpoint, professional players would never use that anyways. Its to telegraphed and has too much start up. why wouldnt you just face the opposite direction and bair them for basically the same end result? there is no application in that kind of up b edge guards for tethers either, and in fact, against a smart player with a tether recovery (or an up b that can quickly snap them to the ledge), youll probably just end up suicide half the time.

up smash is also definitely a buff.

the design changes youd LIKE to see, are beyond me, and I wont agree or disagree if he should be reworked to be more interesting. But complaining about the "nerfs" kirby got isnt really neccesary because he really didnt get nerfed overall. other characters like DDD for instance, actually did get nerfed as a result of randomness, global changes to KB curves and SDI, and some other things. squirtle was another character that wasnt considered amazing really, but got nerfed. a lot of things are design changes, and in the past, the PMDT seems to think setting up a good design base by nerfing/redesigning, and then buffing from there is a good thing. kirby, while getting nerfs to things that are stupid/overdone, has also been getting a steady stream of buffs to things that are more meaningful, like less lag/startup on smashes, which compliments punishes and reads. the up b spike is now better too because its more risky to edge guard him for many characters.

 

[FreeGamer]

dem bowser nerfs though

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

using neutral b to help gimp already is a big part of his play. have you ever seen chu dat play him?



kirby hardly got nerfed. the only thing thats bad is the dash attack BKB and KBG adjustment, but that comes from a global design change that the PMDT has been tweaking around the cast on everyone. up b cutter spike actually got buffed, in that it has a better angle now. I understand that you cant just reverse ledge grab for free now, but when you look at this from a competitive standpoint, professional players would never use that anyways. Its to telegraphed and has too much start up. why wouldnt you just face the opposite direction and bair them for basically the same end result? there is no application in that kind of up b edge guards for tethers either, and in fact, against a smart player with a tether recovery (or an up b that can quickly snap them to the ledge), youll probably just end up suicide half the time.

up smash is also definitely a buff.

the design changes youd LIKE to see, are beyond me, and I wont agree or disagree if he should be reworked to be more interesting. But complaining about the "nerfs" kirby got isnt really neccesary because he really didnt get nerfed overall. other characters like DDD for instance, actually did get nerfed as a result of randomness, global changes to KB curves and SDI, and some other things. squirtle was another character that wasnt considered amazing really, but got nerfed. a lot of things are design changes, and in the past, the PMDT seems to think setting up a good design base by nerfing/redesigning, and then buffing from there is a good thing. kirby, while getting nerfs to things that are stupid/overdone, has also been getting a steady stream of buffs to things that are more meaningful, like less lag/startup on smashes, which compliments punishes and reads. the up b spike is now better too because its more risky to edge guard him for many characters.

First of all, that was 3.02 Kirby he was playing, not 3.6. Second, I can still gimp but it isn't as good considering it was nerfed in 3.5. Now they nerfed his reverse cutter spike which wasn't even that great tobbegin with

 

[G13_Flux]

First of all, that was 3.02 Kirby he was playing, not 3.6. Second, I can still gimp but it isn't as good considering it was nerfed in 3.5. Now they nerfed his reverse cutter spike which wasn't even that great tobbegin with

all they nerfed was his ability to drift, and considering his good air speed and multiple jumps, you shouldnt really need to when placing it. sure, he was playing 3.02 kirby, but you can still use it the same way with very similar effect.

again, reverse cutter spike isnt really a thing.. sure, you can DO it. but in a tournament, against competent players, its terribly situational, and even then there are better options that will accomplish the same thing with less of a read. additionally, you still CAN do it. you can grab the ledge backwards for the first several frames that the hitboxes are out. you just have to be below the ledge. this could still have the potential applications that you used it for before, but now instead of waiting on the edge, you'll likely be already going for an edge guard, and seeking to cover options.

 

[skellitorman]

kirby hardly got nerfed.

A lot of the information you have posted about Kirby is not correct.

Kirby’s nerfs are very significant, but they are warranted and don’t affect his ability to play fundamentally. However, players are not rewarded as they should by playing Kirby fundamentally due to the lack of attributes in his design. This leads to Kirby players becoming frustrated as they are slowly seeing Kirby’s “gimmicks” removed, and his actual fundamental problems not being addressed.

the only thing thats bad is the dash attack BKB and KBG adjustment

Dash attack BKB and KBG changes was an overall buff since characters no longer fly as far allowing Kirby to combo into his next attack better, specifically at KO percents. This change was most likely made also due to the lack of compensation for the additional lag that the move received from the transition of 3.02 -> 3.5.

I understand that you cant just reverse ledge grab for free now, but when you look at this from a competitive standpoint, professional players would never use that anyways. Its to telegraphed and has too much start up. why wouldnt you just face the opposite direction and bair them for basically the same end result?

Actually, certain pro players have used this quite a bit. Basically it functioned similar to Bowser’s down B. Kirby’s Up B forces the opponent to recover below that space much like Bowser’s down B does. If you miss the opponent it’s still fine since Kirby and Bowser will both grab the ledge (which cancels all the lag) and grants ledge invincibility for another edge guard attempt. However, unlike Bowser’s down B which will only kill the opponent at KO percents, Kirby’s will spike the opponent and KO them at any percent (since Kirby’s spike is the same strength at any percent). Furthermore, Kirby could decide to land on the stage instead to shoot a projectile for the gimp. Due to Kirby’s mobility, he had better utility than Bowser’s down B in certain aspects.

The nerfs that Kirby received to Final Cutter practically removes its utility over other forms of edge guarding.

there is no application in that kind of up b edge guards for tethers either, and in fact, against a smart player with a tether recovery (or an up b that can quickly snap them to the ledge), youll probably just end up suicide half the time.

The concept applies just the same as explained in the previous point, since tether recoveries can’t be used at specific spots above the ledge at the space Kirby would be covering with Final Cutter.

up smash is also definitely a buff.

This change is negligible; since it doesn’t help Kirby players land this move at all. Up smash is hardly ever used by Kirby players due to its lack of good attributes in accordance to Kirby’s design (it has less horizontal range than Kirby’s jab and has sourspots at the tip throughout the entire attack while still being relatively slow at 11 frames). Having 5 less recovery frames hardly makes it less punishable due to the range at which Kirby would be in accordance to the opponent on block and still having about 20 frames to punish. Basically this move will still not be used (certainly not more than before) regardless of the buff.

But complaining about the "nerfs" kirby got isnt really neccesary because he really didnt get nerfed overall. kirby, while getting nerfs to things that are stupid/overdone, has also been getting a steady stream of buffs to things that are more meaningful, like less lag/startup on smashes, which compliments punishes and reads.

Kirby has not been getting a steady stream of buffs. Aside from the nerfs, he has mostly gotten fixes to attributes that don’t affect Kirby fundamentally such as Kirby still retaining his jumps when hit out of his grounded Up B. The only actual “buff” that he has gotten was downsmash being active two frames earlier, making it still slower than it was in Melee (where it was active on frame 7).

the up b spike is now better too because its more risky to edge guard him for many characters.

The Up B spike is now a lot easier to edgeguard due to the hitboxes being significantly smaller all around which was another nerf from 3.5 -> 3.6.

all they nerfed was his ability to drift, and considering his good air speed and multiple jumps, you shouldnt really need to when placing it. sure, he was playing 3.02 kirby, but you can still use it the same way with very similar effect.

Aside from the misconception that Kirby is very mobile in the air (which he is not; mainly due to his .04 air mobility attribute which is incredibly low), Inhale received very significant nerfs and no it cannot be used just the same as 3.02.

- Now allows holding up to release with a high trajectory

This change means that the gimp is now significantly more difficult to perform when not Kirbyciding with it. It also means that characters who escape Kirby’s stomach while being Kirbycided now are more capable of returning, thus nullifying the Kirbycide attempt.

-Jumping in the air with a swallowed opponent no longer grants unusually high drift.

Although this change may seem negligible, Kirby now cannot pull the opponent as far away from the stage. Thus opponents now are more capable of returning to the stage if they escape Kirby’s stomach while being Kirbycided.

- Now can no longer drift while inhaling.

What this means is that Kirby’s air control went from 100% to 0% while performing the grab itself. Losing 100% of Kirby’s air control significantly decreased Kirby’s ability to actually land an inhale and especially hurt his ability to Kirbycide. I should not have to explain the utility of air control in a smash game.

 

[FreeGamer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Dash Attack's lower BKB and higher KBG mean that it sends less at low percents and more at high percents? That sounds kinda bad for anyone who relied on it to combo into kill moves.

 

[skellitorman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Dash Attack's lower BKB and higher KBG mean that it sends less at low percents and more at high percents? That sounds kinda bad for anyone who relied on it to combo into kill moves.

I as well as others have found it to have less knockback at higher percents. BKB has been decreased by 20 while KBG was only increased by 15. I also used the damage calculator, so I know I'm correct this time. It has less knockback at all relevant percents (i tested 0 - 150).

 

[FreeGamer]

Good to know.

 

[G13_Flux]

A lot of the information you have posted about Kirby is not correct.

Kirby’s nerfs are very significant, but they are warranted and don’t affect his ability to play fundamentally. However, players are not rewarded as they should by playing Kirby fundamentally due to the lack of attributes in his design. This leads to Kirby players becoming frustrated as they are slowly seeing Kirby’s “gimmicks” removed, and his actual fundamental problems not being addressed.




Dash attack BKB and KBG changes was an overall buff since characters no longer fly as far allowing Kirby to combo into his next attack better, specifically at KO percents. This change was most likely made also due to the lack of compensation for the additional lag that the move received from the transition of 3.02 -> 3.5.




Actually, certain pro players have used this quite a bit. Basically it functioned similar to Bowser’s down B. Kirby’s Up B forces the opponent to recover below that space much like Bowser’s down B does. If you miss the opponent it’s still fine since Kirby and Bowser will both grab the ledge (which cancels all the lag) and grants ledge invincibility for another edge guard attempt. However, unlike Bowser’s down B which will only kill the opponent at KO percents, Kirby’s will spike the opponent and KO them at any percent (since Kirby’s spike is the same strength at any percent). Furthermore, Kirby could decide to land on the stage instead to shoot a projectile for the gimp. Due to Kirby’s mobility, he had better utility than Bowser’s down B in certain aspects.

The nerfs that Kirby received to Final Cutter practically removes its utility over other forms of edge guarding.



The concept applies just the same as explained in the previous point, since tether recoveries can’t be used at specific spots above the ledge at the space Kirby would be covering with Final Cutter.




This change is negligible; since it doesn’t help Kirby players land this move at all. Up smash is hardly ever used by Kirby players due to its lack of good attributes in accordance to Kirby’s design (it has less horizontal range than Kirby’s jab and has sourspots at the tip throughout the entire attack while still being relatively slow at 11 frames). Having 5 less recovery frames hardly makes it less punishable due to the range at which Kirby would be in accordance to the opponent on block and still having about 20 frames to punish. Basically this move will still not be used (certainly not more than before) regardless of the buff.




Kirby has not been getting a steady stream of buffs. Aside from the nerfs, he has mostly gotten fixes to attributes that don’t affect Kirby fundamentally such as Kirby still retaining his jumps when hit out of his grounded Up B. The only actual “buff” that he has gotten was downsmash being active two frames earlier, making it still slower than it was in Melee (where it was active on frame 7).




The Up B spike is now a lot easier to edgeguard due to the hitboxes being significantly smaller all around which was another nerf from 3.5 -> 3.6.




Aside from the misconception that Kirby is very mobile in the air (which he is not; mainly due to his .04 air mobility attribute which is incredibly low), Inhale received very significant nerfs and no it cannot be used just the same as 3.02.

- Now allows holding up to release with a high trajectory

This change means that the gimp is now significantly more difficult to perform when not Kirbyciding with it. It also means that characters who escape Kirby’s stomach while being Kirbycided now are more capable of returning, thus nullifying the Kirbycide attempt.

-Jumping in the air with a swallowed opponent no longer grants unusually high drift.

Although this change may seem negligible, Kirby now cannot pull the opponent as far away from the stage. Thus opponents now are more capable of returning to the stage if they escape Kirby’s stomach while being Kirbycided.

- Now can no longer drift while inhaling.

What this means is that Kirby’s air control went from 100% to 0% while performing the grab itself. Losing 100% of Kirby’s air control significantly decreased Kirby’s ability to actually land an inhale and especially hurt his ability to Kirbycide. I should not have to explain the utility of air control in a smash game.

The dash attack change is 100 percent a Nerf. You no longer get combos out of it on as wide of a percent window

You're playing a character with 6 mid air jumps, and 2 burst movement specials. Trust me his overall mobility in the air again is quite good. He doesn't need high air speed to have good overall mobility.

With the up b thing, I'm still not convinced that upper level players have any reason to use it. Bowsers has armor on his, and I believe undergoes the animation quicker. With kirbys, you can wave dash onto the ledge in the same time to garner invincibility, and edge guard from there for the same effect. There are also certainly no applications towards tether characters. How will you hit them? You won't. At worst they will snap the ledge and you will suicide. At best you might grab the ledge first, but there's quicker ways of doing so anyways. Maybe the edge guard works somewhat in practice, but taking away from it doesn't take anything away from Kirby's kit that he can't accomplish by other means. This character already has one of the best edge guarding games in the cast.

While the hitboxes got smaller, the hit is more rewarding. It's still disjointed too. Overall I'd say it's effectively more functional, but again this is a smaller point.

Out of all the things Kirby has undergone this patch, he hasn't lost anything significant. For the Kirby mains that loved using the cutter meteor smash to edge guard, I dosympathize at the loss of something cool, but it's not taking anything away that Kirby needs competitively. Other characters can't reverse grab the ledge which such a long window like he had, so this change, again, stems from a global one. I think the buffs to the speed of his smashes over the past 2 patches are more significant since they compliment his reads on the ground better, where he really needs it. His aerial control and control off edge is already phenomenal.

 

[FreeGamer]

His air speed is a solid 1.0 tied to a horrid air traction of .04, and his initial/dash speed and wavedash are nothing to write home about. He has 2 band-aids in Dash Attack and Cutter Dash, both of which have plenty of counterplay. Cutter Dash isn't even worth using as an attack because it eats all his jumps, preventing him from chasing after a successful hit. I do not believe this qualifies as "quite good".

Also, 1 or 2 frames less startup on his vertical Smashes is hardly a worthwhile compensation for all the things that got removed from 3.02-3.5.

 

[G13_Flux]

You don't need to have good air speed to have good overall aerial control/mobility. Cutter dash isn't Kirby's magic solution to aerial control, but it's still a burst mobility tool that's also a combo extender. It also eats all but one jump, not all. You forget you have a pretty decent vertical kill option in the air to compliment this. 6 midair jumps is also nothing to take lightly. Characters.. Don't have that.. Jiggy and Kirby do though. Seriously, its a big thing even when you neglect the fact that you have a great command grab. If Kirby had better air speed, I'd say he'd belong back in 3.02.

I also never mentioned anything about ground movement. I wouldn't call dash attack too much of a band aid at least either, at least when your approach and ability to force reactions from the air is decent

 

[FreeGamer]

Decent at best, thanks to a traction of .04. Being that slow and expending your jumps like Halloween candy has you running the risk of being hit offstage before landing, which could very well be death. Kirby's defenses are better on the ground, where his burst option doesn't gut his recovery and he has that super amazing crouch. The one jump you get out of Cutter Dash won't let you catch anyone except maybe for Bowser or Dedede.

 

[skellitorman]

The dash attack change is 100 percent a Nerf. You no longer get combos out of it on as wide of a percent window

Let’s compare the knockback values of 3.5 and 3.6 vs. Mario using actual mathematical data from the damage calculator.

Mario at 0%: 3.5: 81.02 -> 3.6: 64.224

Mario at 50%: 3.5: 102.02 -> 3.6: 89.424

Mario at 100%: 3.5: 123.01999999999998 -> 3.6: 114.624

Mario at 150%: 3.5: 144.01999999999998 -> 3.6: 139.824

Mario at 175%: 3.5: 154.51999999999998 -> 3.6: 152.424

Please tell me where you got your information from.

You're playing a character with 6 mid air jumps, and 2 burst movement specials. Trust me his overall mobility in the air again is quite good. He doesn't need high air speed to have good overall mobility.

The only thing I need to trust is the factual data, and not your incorrect perception of the matter. Kirby only has 5 mid air jumps (not 6), and every consequent jump travels less distance than the previous one. His 2 special burst movement options are not solid burst options (specifically offensively) because of the heavy limitations they have. There is good reason that these moves are used very rarely (specifically offensively) if at all at pro level.

Kirby is one of the slowest characters in the air, both horizontally (low air mobility) and vertically (low falling speed). Only 2 characters have less aerial mobility than Kirby’s .04, and Stone/Cutter Dash do not make up for this severely lacking value.

With the up b thing, I'm still not convinced that upper level players have any reason to use it. Bowsers has armor on his, and I believe undergoes the animation quicker. With kirbys, you can wave dash onto the ledge in the same time to garner invincibility, and edge guard from there for the same effect. There are also certainly no applications towards tether characters. How will you hit them? You won't. At worst they will snap the ledge and you will suicide. At best you might grab the ledge first, but there's quicker ways of doing so anyways. Maybe the edge guard works somewhat in practice, but taking away from it doesn't take anything away from Kirby's kit that he can't accomplish by other means. This character already has one of the best edge guarding games in the cast.

I have given you factual data on its previous use in tournaments that were successful. If you are failing to understand my explanation, then there is not much I can do here.

Out of all the things Kirby has undergone this patch, he hasn't lost anything significant.

In terms of fundamentals, yes Kirby hasn’t lost anything significant except for the drift ability on inhale (which was removed to directly nerf Kirbycide). But as explained earlier, the "gimmicks" are steadily being removed and the fundamental problems have not been addressed at all.

I think the buffs to the speed of his smashes over the past 2 patches are more significant since they compliment his reads on the ground better, where he really needs it.

Forward Smash was never touched, and Upsmash’s change was literally negligible as explained earlier. Downsmash’s change was actually the only significant “buff” but it still is rarely used because of its attributes and it’s still slower than it was in Melee.

His aerial control and control off edge is already phenomenal.

FreeGamer and I have explained that his aerial control (aerial mobility) is very low at .04. Kirby is quite slow in the air and doesn’t have much range, so his ability to threaten is there but it’s lacking in comparison to a character such as DDD or Metaknight whose ranges compliment their respective speeds. Phenomenal is an overstatement.

You don't need to have good air speed to have good overall aerial control/mobility.

It is true that you don’t need good air speed to have a good overall aerial mobility stat, but both attributes work together to produce “aerial control.” This means that lacking one part will have a significant influence on the overall situation (the ability to move in the air). Kirby heavily lacks one part of this equation and his other attributes doesn’t compensate for it.

Cutter dash isn't Kirby's magic solution to aerial control, but it's still a burst mobility tool that's also a combo extender. It also eats all but one jump, not all. You forget you have a pretty decent vertical kill option in the air to compliment this.

Cutter dash isn’t used as a combo extended at all except in the rare forward throw/ up throw combos. Even then Kirby can’t followup afterwards. The only times Kirby can get something off of Cutter Dash is at specific percents where it is used raw and the attack was used significantly above the opponent. Furthermore it has significant limitations as an offensive tool and so shouldn’t be considered as an approach like you are suggesting it is.

6 midair jumps is also nothing to take lightly. Characters.. Don't have that.. Jiggy and Kirby do though. Seriously, its a big thing even when you neglect the fact that you have a great command grab.

Having 5 midair jumps is indeed something that shouldn’t be taken lightly. However Kirby’s command grab is not what you call great. Having both Starshot and Copy being punishable on hit is very bad. Having inhale only become functional near the edge and to suicide isn’t something that should be regarded as great especially considering the difficulty of succeeding with it.

If Kirby had better air speed, I'd say he'd belong back in 3.02.

It is very feasible to balance Kirby properly (while addressing his air speed) without leading to a problematic design.

I wouldn't call dash attack too much of a band aid at least either, at least when your approach and ability to force reactions from the air is decent

Kirby’s ability to force reactions from the air is decent at best, though it is often not a better option over Kirby’s other grounded options. Good Kirby players know that Kirby does not approach from the air due to Kirby being significantly more vulnerable in the air.

Dash attack is too good specifically because it can fall off a ledge and land cancel (which should have been removed by now). It is also Kirby’s fastest and most effective burst movement option, so many Kirby players rely on it too much in neutral for getting in. However at top level play (and maybe even in higher levels in general) the counterplay to the grounded dash attack is reliable. Dash attack is indeed a “band aid” to cover for Kirby’s fundamental problems but at top level it is just not worth having over his fundamental problems being fixed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problems with your assessment all hinge on the fact that your data is factually incorrect. I would suggest that you do more research and learn more before you continue to make such claims.

 

[Phan7om]

Skellitorman the freaking GOAT

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

are you on the pmdt yet?

 

[himemiya]

Still wish we could go back to 3.5 before the pmbr decides to do changes because they couldn't figure out certain mu's.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Kirby 3.5>3.6 wasn't that big of a change other than "trimming the fat". The main change though was that we didn't get anything really notable to compensate removing most of our bank that was the core of kirby's gameplay. I'd sooner get a bunch of buffs to neutral than worry about some weird janky stuff getting removed.

 

[FreeGamer]

On a character whose primary strength should be aerial combat, higher air speed/traction would not be remotely broken. Know what actually was broken? Absurdly safe burst options, moving during Inhale, a D-Throw that was a death sentence for his fellow floaties, and a gigantic spike that could reverse sweetspot the ledge from any height above it.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

On a character whose primary strength should be aerial combat, higher air speed/traction would not be remotely broken. Know what actually was broken? Absurdly safe burst options, moving during Inhale, a D-Throw that was a death sentence for his fellow floaties, and a gigantic spike that could reverse sweetspot the ledge.

I agree with all of that except moving during inhale. It helped him be more threatening while in the air.

 

[skellitorman]

are you on the pmdt yet?

I am not in the PMDT yet, for registrations have not been reopened (as far as I know).

 

[Soft Serve]

Let’s compare the knockback values of 3.5 and 3.6 vs. Mario using actual mathematical data from the damage calculator.

Mario at 0%: 3.5: 81.02 -> 3.6: 64.224

Mario at 50%: 3.5: 102.02 -> 3.6: 89.424

Mario at 100%: 3.5: 123.01999999999998 -> 3.6: 114.624

Mario at 150%: 3.5: 144.01999999999998 -> 3.6: 139.824

Mario at 175%: 3.5: 154.51999999999998 -> 3.6: 152.424

Please tell me where you got your information from.



The only thing I need to trust is the factual data, and not your incorrect perception of the matter. Kirby only has 5 mid air jumps (not 6), and every consequent jump travels less distance than the previous one. His 2 special burst movement options are not solid burst options (specifically offensively) because of the heavy limitations they have. There is good reason that these moves are used very rarely (specifically offensively) if at all at pro level.

Kirby is one of the slowest characters in the air, both horizontally (low air mobility) and vertically (low falling speed). Only 2 characters have less aerial mobility than Kirby’s .04, and Stone/Cutter Dash do not make up for this severely lacking value.



I have given you factual data on its previous use in tournaments that were successful. If you are failing to understand my explanation, then there is not much I can do here.




In terms of fundamentals, yes Kirby hasn’t lost anything significant except for the drift ability on inhale (which was removed to directly nerf Kirbycide). But as explained earlier, the "gimmicks" are steadily being removed and the fundamental problems have not been addressed at all.



Forward Smash was never touched, and Upsmash’s change was literally negligible as explained earlier. Downsmash’s change was actually the only significant “buff” but it still is rarely used because of its attributes and it’s still slower than it was in Melee.



FreeGamer and I have explained that his aerial control (aerial mobility) is very low at .04. Kirby is quite slow in the air and doesn’t have much range, so his ability to threaten is there but it’s lacking in comparison to a character such as DDD or Metaknight whose ranges compliment their respective speeds. Phenomenal is an overstatement.



It is true that you don’t need good air speed to have a good overall aerial mobility stat, but both attributes work together to produce “aerial control.” This means that lacking one part will have a significant influence on the overall situation (the ability to move in the air). Kirby heavily lacks one part of this equation and his other attributes doesn’t compensate for it.



Cutter dash isn’t used as a combo extended at all except in the rare forward throw/ up throw combos. Even then Kirby can’t followup afterwards. The only times Kirby can get something off of Cutter Dash is at specific percents where it is used raw and the attack was used significantly above the opponent. Furthermore it has significant limitations as an offensive tool and so shouldn’t be considered as an approach like you are suggesting it is.



Having 5 midair jumps is indeed something that shouldn’t be taken lightly. However Kirby’s command grab is not what you call great. Having both Starshot and Copy being punishable on hit is very bad. Having inhale only become functional near the edge and to suicide isn’t something that should be regarded as great especially considering the difficulty of succeeding with it.



It is very feasible to balance Kirby properly (while addressing his air speed) without leading to a problematic design.



Kirby’s ability to force reactions from the air is decent at best, though it is often not a better option over Kirby’s other grounded options. Good Kirby players know that Kirby does not approach from the air due to Kirby being significantly more vulnerable in the air.

Dash attack is too good specifically because it can fall off a ledge and land cancel (which should have been removed by now). It is also Kirby’s fastest and most effective burst movement option, so many Kirby players rely on it too much in neutral for getting in. However at top level play (and maybe even in higher levels in general) the counterplay to the grounded dash attack is reliable. Dash attack is indeed a “band aid” to cover for Kirby’s fundamental problems but at top level it is just not worth having over his fundamental problems being fixed.

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The problems with your assessment all hinge on the fact that your data is factually incorrect. I would suggest that you do more research and learn more before you continue to make such claims.

After playing more kirby this patch (both as and against) I agree a lot with this post. Dash attack off platforms is a huge bandaid to his kit, but really that's nearly all he has going for him. I don't main him but I'm pretty sure most kirby players would trade dash attack land cancel for a bit better air control, and the ability to combo off star shot. There's no real reason for kirby(and ddd) to get punished for landing his command grab. It's really dumb you can just press abab and break out of the star immediately.

He's solid but underwhelming and sooo close to bring really good, but I don't think he'd ever get proper buffs while he still has those few bandaids on his kit

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Maybe not the correct place, but do any kirbys abuse how amazing crossups fun too with his kit? Specifically dair into crouch/up tilt/dtilt/grab.

I am willing to look at potential QoL changes/buffs. I think everyone can agree that inhale needs fixing (same for DDD). I dont think mashing out of the starshot should be a thing. I'll propose 2 hypothetical directions they could take. This isn't from an expert, nor are these demands. Just let me know what you think.

1) When shot, they go a set distance with no mashing. Does decent damage, no combo potential, but nets decent position advantage.

2) Maybe something with combos. I thought I had a decent idea for this, but it just seems dumb. Since Kirby doesn't get much off normal grabs outside tech chases, it wouldn't be too annoying. Kirby doesn't have a super kill like Wario or the insane damage off his hits like Dorf, so I could see it working.

I really want to know what you think of the first, I think it would be unique. Also, make copy not punishable on hit (is it?), cuz that's stupid.

 

[FreeGamer]

1 sounds better, but what kind of distance do you have in mind? :O

Personally I'd like to remove the ability to mash out of being a star and have the release not make people shoot 20 feet upward.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Dont have access to the game for awhile, what about the current unmashed distance? Would that be too good? Wario gets a 50/50 off his with great air mobility, Dorf gets a jab or even a dtilt on quite a few at all percents (set knockback?) while moving him forward. It can't hurt to have good positional advantage that feeds into edge guards. I think that should be priority number 1, making inhale worthwhile.

 

[FreeGamer]

The horizontal positioning would be much more beneficial if it didn't also release the other person so high. I don't see why getting hit by a command grab should essentially give the victim an extra jump.

 

[Soft Serve]

I dont really see a problem with getting combos off of inhale. Most other command grabs allow for combo potential: Wario gets the 50/50, Diddy gets a low% combo tool with slap and an offstage combo ender with jump, Ganon gets tech chases with grounded side-b and guaranteed followups (on almost everyone) with air side-b. Just some hitstun on the spit out would be amazing.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

so basically the distance would be normalized and they wouldn't randomly fly upwards? also making it more effective in teams would be cool by making the knock back greater on the spit out onto other people

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Its not that Kirby couldn't have a combo off it, I just think it would be more interesting if he was given s good positional throw.

 

[FreeGamer]

He kinda already has that in B-Throw. Not to say his command grab shouldn't have a reward other than suicide kills, though.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think Kirby can really take advantage of positional advantage, so that's why I suggested it. Just trying to have unique idea to throws rather then boring combo throws at all percents (or, do to high startup, you don't have to worry about cg's). Idk

 

[Certix_]

Kirby's inhale is just OK as it is now, a lot could be done to make it better, more functional, fun to use, and canon.
Proposed ideas:
-Change starshot to give a set distance with a small amount of DI capability, allowing for more consistency and usefulness, but not OP super combo angle and stun

-When they mash out or release from inside kirby, send at a 45 angle upwards and away. Both kirby and opponent will have the same amount of lag so they have the same IASA (am I using that right?) This would be more for positional advantage/setting up edgegaurds. Distance sent can be tweaked.

-Swallow could take many forms, but as I've heard from sources I don't feel like finding the hats are difficult to change.
Going off the idea that hats cannot be changed easily, swallow could take a different approach and I have a few ideas (though a bit radical)

1. Characters could be divided into categories either by general playstyle, Aesthetics, Universe, swordie/brawler/projectile user, etc... to where when Kirby swallows one of the characters in a category he would get the same hat and ability
(i.e. marth, roy, and ike would give him sweet hair and a sword) These abilities could also affect other parts of his moveset such as nair being akin to metaknight's for a swordie. This would allow for hats to be more easily tweaked for balance

2. Kirby could choose a hat from a pool of ~3 hats from the main kirby universe such as sword, fighter, and beam kirby. These could be activated by hitting a taunt up/down/left/right when swallowing an opponent and would change several of his moves. Although this seems cool, it sounds hard to implement.

3. Same as #2 but instead of activated at swallow it could be tied to a taunt button and last for ~20 seconds or if kirby takes enough damage. comes with a ~20 second cooldown as well.

Other Ideas for change:
- Change dashattack knockback and angle to where they are sent forward with kirby with higher knockback, weakening combo potential but giving stage position and possible edgeguard situation.

- On top of previous change, buff Kirby's speed or mobility in some manner so that his neutral game is more solid and not reliant on dashattack off platforms or a shield grab etc.

Buffing Air mobility would make Kirby more spacing oriented as well as give him a better airgame

Buffing Air speed(and kept running momentum) would make Kirby more aggressive and pressuring but more punishable(most likely) without mobility

Buffing ground speed would give Kirby a more solid bait and punish style of gameplan, though I think this is not very consistent with Kirby as a Character.

-Kirby's f-throw should provide either combo potential, or send far enough forward to set up better edguards.
-His U-throw should be a kill throw around 160% on mid weight and fallspeed no DI

Anyway, That's my 2-cents on the subject. Open to (constructive) criticism. Still love Kirby regardless.
And yes, I did just make this account, but I have lurked on these forums for about 2 years and I think I somewhat know what I am talking about.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think people tend to get too impractical with changes. They sound cool, but I just dont think those swallow ideas will happen. I personally think mashing should go away entirely. It really is stupid and makes no sense. If they don't know about it, then they go a decent distance. If they do know, they can punish you on hit. Its a pretty crappy situation.

I have absolutely no idea how to handle any buffs to Kirby as a whole. Lots of ideas sound reasonable though, so I hope the PMDT doesn't just decide to leave Kirby untouched like DK, it seems like there is work to be done. I dont think Kirby should be about Kirbycides or cutter gimps, or a lot of the things removed. I do think once you take that away you need to start expanding upon other ideas, otherwise he will be centralized (but "bad") around crouch, bair, dtilt, and up tilt. Oh, and tech chases to punish people. That all sounds boring to me. Crouch is fascinating, but why I like it works better with Squirtle anyways because Kirby doesn't have the speed to crossup like he does.

 

[Phan7om]

Kirby definitely needs more mobility, both air mobility and run speed need to be increased but slightly... around .65 and 1.6 respectively imo.

As for the 3 options for inhale, here are my suggested changes

• Release/Mash Out: They pop upwards just like D3's. This gets rid of the whole Kirbycide option altogether, which many agree is not what Kirby should be about. Gets rid of one of his currently centralizing tools, but will improve other areas so that it makes for more interesting and hype gameplay.
• Starshot: This is probably a very unpopular opinion, but the only change I would make to this move would be to make it inescapable. I know this isnt the D3 boards but I would make D3's inhale the combo/50-50 one, buff the damage to 15%, AND program it so Kirby gets that option when he copies D3 so Kirby doesnt get an arguably worse inhale leaving little to no reason to copy D3... very rarely does the extra range matter right now.
• Copy: First, of course, make this safe by giving it a bit of hitstun. I usually dont like taking about this because I have no idea how programming around this move works, but I feel it could be very well designed if taken the time to be done properly. A little idea I had was influenced by them giving Mewtwo/Lucas different copy abilities (due to programming limits of course). I doubt it will ever get in but what if copy copied different moves for certain characters, such as Peach's turnips instead of Toad, etc. But then the debate starts on what moves we want to take from what characters. For example, some might argue that they'd rather have Pika's thunderjolts over thunder... which one is right to take? Majority vote? From Who? Idk, probably stirrs up to much conflict. Tbh, it would be nice for all of the moves to act like the PM versions instead of the Brawl versions.