I am disappointed with Kirby in 3.6

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#1
Okay, well, my playstyle with kirby was to edgeguard using up b. Now 3.6 update has removed this making my main strategy go away. Also they have totally nerfed kirby; dash attack is weaker now, the knockback is ****ty, upsmash is shorter and it does less too. Also it's harder to spike with kirby now...
What's with all the developers nerfing kirby. Project M is supposed to be balanced, 3.5 was balanced. Please bring back reverse ledge guarding for Kirby. I don't want a ****ty kirby like the one in melee.

Thanks,
~qwertz143~
 
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#2
Yea I play him for a bit and noticed that he didn't seem to pack the punches he used to, feels kind of inferior now.

Personally, I think the character was fine in the 3.5 incarnation.
 
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#4
My sentiments after playing 3.6 (beta) Kirby for a while, exactly. All of these other characters getting glamorous retoolings, and, if nerfed to an extent at all, at least having more effectively been balanced out with some pros to mitigate the cons, for the most part...

Kirby, on the other hand, just seems to have gotten nerfed all around with no real reprieve, despite others who may look at the overall changes as yet still "insignificant," mind you. I'm disappointed in the team's handling of the character as well, honestly.

It just feels at this point that they're making arbitrary decisions toward Kirby.
 
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Rᴏb

still here, just to suffer
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#5
Kirby as a whole had disappointed me since they released him, but I've accepted that his design isn't going to change much now.
At this point I'm mostly disappointed that they still haven't fixed his copy abilities, they're mostly still Brawl's. It's like the PMDT doesn't care to fix this.
 

Pfhor

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#6
Just something to keep in mind, meteor canceling has a 20 frame fail window now, so they can't mash up+b when you meteor them with d-air. Should make d-air edge guarding more effective.
 
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#7
You are going off your own solo opinion about Kirby instead of actual results. Claiming he was perfect and that 3.5 was balanced. Clearly you don't know. Just give it time and see how the meta evolves. Kirby was really really good in 3.5. I kinda expected some nerfs on him.
 
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#8
The nerfs to Cutter Spike and Stone make sense. It's nice to have U-Smash with less cooldown but that isn't where he needs help. The Dash Attack nerf is the only thing I find questionable. It kinda bothers me that he still has 2 completely worthless throws and is a little slower than he should be.

EDIT: Literally the only things changed were Cutter, Stone, U-Smash, and Dash Attack. Don't let any bull**** placebos ruin your experience. :3
 
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dg-pilz-e

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#9
The nerfs to Cutter Spike and Stone make sense. It's nice to have U-Smash with less cooldown but that isn't where he needs help. The Dash Attack nerf is the only thing I find questionable. It kinda bothers me that he still has 2 completely worthless throws and is a little slower than he should be.

EDIT: Literally the only things changed were Cutter, Stone, U-Smash, and Dash Attack. Don't let any bull**** placebos ruin your experience. :3

I 100% agree with this they didn't address bigger issues with Kirby. I can understand some of the nerfs (final cutter edge gaurd was so stylish but at the same time kinda silly) but i think they need to concentrate on different problems with Kirby.

Also wtf is this yoshi bs you can't footstool him out of double jump now >.>.
I'm going to require more time with him but so far i hope that this is not his final build
 

dg-pilz-e

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#11
Who cares about footstooling Yoshi when we still have Inhale? :troll:

As good as inhale is i think it gives him his jump back so he can climb up to the stage again.

It's just the sillyness of it that I'm mad about. They took away Kirbys backward ledgegrab while in his final cutter animation. He was the only character that could do it so fair enough. But yoshi is now the only character that can't get footstooled during his second jump? Why does he need that ability? It's not hard to avoid getting footstooled just manage your recovery better and think ahead.

It just seems dumb and i'm mad!! :mad:
 
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#12
Alright, I read all of what you guys wrote, but what I meant was why nerf kirby, when you can nerf someone like falco? Falco hardly even got any changes this update. Yeah sure, kirby was good in 3.5, yeah so let him stay as good as the other characters, don't nerf him as soon as he becomes great. That makes the game less balanced in my opinion. Well I'm not sure yet, we'll wait and see how the meta game develops, but I don't like 3.6 so far. It just seems weaker, and it feels like this update they focused on alternate stages and taunts, rather than competitive gameplay. I guess we'll just wait and see what happens :|
 

Pfhor

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#16
I was trying out the new dash attack, it sends them like nowhere at low percentages (I guess like most other dash attacks in the game, actually, that's probably why they changed it). Need to test with people to see how viable it is, but Kirby might be able to set up a throw after the last hit, depending on the character. Also, divebombing with dash attack into up-tilt still works at zero on the characters I tested, seems like a true combo.
 

Jinjo64

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#18
Kirby looks pretty bad this patch. In 3.5 I'd say he was mid tier at best unless you think he was better than snake, diddy kong, lucas, roy, or rob. Which are some of the high or top tiers of 3.5. Remember....Snake got buffs and Kirby got nerfed, so PM balancing isn't even close to perfect. I've kind of given up on pm kirby. SD remix kirby is superior is just about every way and I'm starting to feel that towards Smash 4 kirby too due to his recent buffs.

I'll still play Kirby, but I think he doesn't have much of a future in this meta...unless a new tech is discovered or some crazy prodigy.
 

Jinjo64

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#19
You are going off your own solo opinion about Kirby instead of actual results. Claiming he was perfect and that 3.5 was balanced. Clearly you don't know. Just give it time and see how the meta evolves. Kirby was really really good in 3.5. I kinda expected some nerfs on him.
Whats your definition of really really good? Kirby wasn't even close to top 15 in 3.5.
 
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#20
Kirby still feels the same. I did the best I had ever done with him at my local, last night. We all used 3.6 and he feels fine. I'm gonna miss the cheese of reverse cutter ledge grab but I still got an on-stage spike with cutter so it's not useless.
 
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#21
Kirby looks pretty bad this patch. In 3.5 I'd say he was mid tier at best unless you think he was better than snake, diddy kong, lucas, roy, or rob. Which are some of the high or top tiers of 3.5. Remember....Snake got buffs and Kirby got nerfed, so PM balancing isn't even close to perfect. I've kind of given up on pm kirby. SD remix kirby is superior is just about every way and I'm starting to feel that towards Smash 4 kirby too due to his recent buffs.

I'll still play Kirby, but I think he doesn't have much of a future in this meta...unless a new tech is discovered or some crazy prodigy.
Yes. That's exactly my point. I thought PM was a game that was supposed to be balanced, and in my opinion 3.5 was pretty balanced I guess. But 3.6 they got their estimates wrong. Kirby nerfed but not falco? That totally doesn't sound like anything being balanced.
 

Phan7om

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#22
When I first saw the change list for Kirby, my immediate thought was "ok those are some reasonable nerfs, but where are the buffs?"

Lets be real, as a Kirby main myself Up-B spiking from the ledge backwards was one of the most stupid things in the game. Sorry if that sounded harsh but im sure you can find a playstyle thats more than simply hanging by the ledge, getting them offstage, and Up-Bing the ledge in hopes of them running into it.

But regarding Kirby's balance, there are still a few things I hope they consider changing in the forms of both Nerfs and Buffs. I mean, Im sure they aren't done with him I just really think they dont know what to do with him; that or they think hes fine due to what most people (non Kirby players) think of him (which btw isnt the right way to do things imo). His design also needs work, similar to Melee > PM Fox in that his core playstyle is the same but his options are pretty different. Im sure they can make him super fun, cool, and hype (Im confident I could), but instead Dash Attack/B-Air/Kirbycide the character still exists in 3 versions and in each version those options (or at least one of them) become worse yet still remain his best options over 50% of the time. We cant have that.

Im with Jinjo in that Ive almost given up on PM but like as a whole, there are just too many design flaws that are considered fine by most people; Im starting to lose faith... and when they do get changed they get changed way later than it should have (it took this long to give Fox's up-b more lag as one example).
 

dg-pilz-e

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#23
When I first saw the change list for Kirby, my immediate thought was "ok those are some reasonable nerfs, but where are the buffs?"

Lets be real, as a Kirby main myself Up-B spiking from the ledge backwards was one of the most stupid things in the game. Sorry if that sounded harsh but im sure you can find a playstyle thats more than simply hanging by the ledge, getting them offstage, and Up-Bing the ledge in hopes of them running into it.

But regarding Kirby's balance, there are still a few things I hope they consider changing in the forms of both Nerfs and Buffs. I mean, Im sure they aren't done with him I just really think they dont know what to do with him; that or they think hes fine due to what most people (non Kirby players) think of him (which btw isnt the right way to do things imo). His design also needs work, similar to Melee > PM Fox in that his core playstyle is the same but his options are pretty different. Im sure they can make him super fun, cool, and hype (Im confident I could), but instead Dash Attack/B-Air/Kirbycide the character still exists in 3 versions and in each version those options (or at least one of them) become worse yet still remain his best options over 50% of the time. We cant have that.

Im with Jinjo in that Ive almost given up on PM but like as a whole, there are just too many design flaws that are considered fine by most people; Im starting to lose faith... and when they do get changed they get changed way later than it should have (it took this long to give Fox's up-b more lag as one example).

I wonder if maybe we the Kirby forum could give feedback to PMDT? Do you think that they will have a section where we can write about the changes? I feel like it's a good idea to get ahold of the person/people who helped design Kirby and point them in the right direction in terms of balance. That's what one of my friends did here they made there own build of Bowser and a lot of the changes got implemented.

Cause i completely agree. Kirby is tapering off, and there are just some things in PM that are getting silly.
 

Jinjo64

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#25
I want to believe that they put him on the back burner for now, and they'll have a less over-centralized design planned for him in 4.0. Worst comes to worst, we could try making Kirby Fighters a popular side game. :p
Kirby fighters would be amazing. I love that game! Does anyone else feel like Its harder to sdi out of kirby's fair or get out of his dair offstage?
 

himemiya

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#26
I personally find everyone's changes but oilmar's to be bull****. I agree with you fellow kirby main he didn't really need those changes (most of the cast didn't need their changes as well). Is chudat really that cheap that the pmbr has to nerf his gameplay and make everyone suffer from it?
 
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#27
Kirby fighters would be amazing. I love that game! Does anyone else feel like Its harder to sdi out of kirby's fair or get out of his dair offstage?
Kirby fighters is cool, and yeah i'm finding gimping with dair really tough nowdays. Reaching the opponent while he'soff stage itself is an issue. It was so easy in the original SSB64. Maybe PM should base their kirby on that rather than melee, what do you think?
 
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#28
I personally find everyone's changes but oilmar's to be bull****. I agree with you fellow kirby main he didn't really need those changes (most of the cast didn't need their changes as well). Is chudat really that cheap that the pmbr has to nerf his gameplay and make everyone suffer from it?
I still don't get why kirby got the nerfs and not falco :\
 

Jinjo64

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#32
I must been seeing things, but dair did feel easier to link together from 3.5. Dair is amazing 90%+ and I think its good, but not the monster that 64 was. hahah
 
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#33
I must been seeing things, but dair did feel easier to link together from 3.5. Dair is amazing 90%+ and I think its good, but not the monster that 64 was. hahah
I'm not sure if you're right, but for some reason dair is actually easier to link together. Is it a change in fall physics or something because the changelist doesn't mention anything. I must admit though, after a few days playing 3.6 I'm not as butthurt as when it released. I guess I got used to the playstyle. Idk.
 

dg-pilz-e

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#34
I'm not sure if you're right, but for some reason dair is actually easier to link together. Is it a change in fall physics or something because the changelist doesn't mention anything. I must admit though, after a few days playing 3.6 I'm not as butthurt as when it released. I guess I got used to the playstyle. Idk.
Is this link to D-air just easier on certain chars? or is it just more lenient with the inputs ooooorrrrr?
 
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#36
As a Kirby main I do understand the disdain for the recent changes. But overall I feel they were either needed or small enough to where it doesn't effect the structure of his current play.

The spike was simple insane, a cheap and overly powerful tool to a character that has no problem with edge guarding. The reverse edge grab is not gone in its entirety either. You can still grab it during the top 1/2 to 1/3 of the swing, you just can't do it from way above. This means that as a recovery item is has no nerfs, though offensively it is much more situational.

In addition I feel like the dash and up-smash are almost neutral. The dash now allows for potential to do more combos for longer, and the up=smash though brought down in power for one or two percent it is a considerably quicker tool for Kirby to use.

The one that I really dislike is the nerfs occurring on his down special. The move is already lacking and this nerf only isolates it more as a very difficult tool to use. Though having good potential, it is now an even less save move to use.

I would argue Kirby should gain another tool at his disposal, but what that tool is...Can be a number of different things. As a base fighter I find his current iteration to have plenty of speed and power, with great recovery and maneuverability. The issue is that in this current iteration of the game, so do many of the other characters.

Perhaps a better use of alternates with the Neutral B, making the shot more predictable, or a slightly faster, or perhaps chargeable Side B. In fact, if Kirby just got a better forward throw, he would be great.
 

MEnKIRBZ

Smash Journeyman
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#37
Kirbys da didn't need nerfing and swallowcide should be a big part of his play imo
 
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Phan7om

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#40
I just read the last half the page... I cant even, wtf. I cant tell if serious or troll tbh. So much salt and wrong info.

PMDTs gonna look at this and think we all want buffs for him in the form of stupid design. With each patch, they're going in the right direction... the direction to reach the goal they said a while ago they were trying to reach, yet so many people (other character boards too) want to revert back to 3.0 or before with their character and im just like wow is this real life? Kirby's definitely not done yet, from the looks of it I think they'll make him somewhat fine around 4.5. Ive said what he needs somewhere on here recently (Ive said stuff a while back that I cant find that are horrible changes imo), and I still stick to those.
 
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