I am disappointed with Kirby in 3.6

skellitorman

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#82
Starshot: This is probably a very unpopular opinion, but the only change I would make to this move would be to make it inescapable.
In terms of functionality, all Starshot needs is to be inescapable. However the damage should reflect the risk/reward, and should be balanced with other factors in mind.

Copy: I usually dont like taking about this because I have no idea how programming around this move works, but I feel it could be very well designed if taken the time to be done properly. A little idea I had was influenced by them giving Mewtwo/Lucas different copy abilities (due to programming limits of course). I doubt it will ever get in but what if copy copied different moves for certain characters, such as Peach's turnips instead of Toad, etc. But then the debate starts on what moves we want to take from what characters. For example, some might argue that they'd rather have Pika's thunderjolts over thunder... which one is right to take? Majority vote? From Who? Idk, probably stirrs up to much conflict. Tbh, it would be nice for all of the moves to act like the PM versions instead of the Brawl versions.
Aside from the technical programming issues, it is a simple matter to decide which move should be copied. The move that should be copied should have to meet the following criteria:

1. It should be a move that helps Kirby in the MU (in varying degrees to account for the variance in MU difficulty) while also being a fair trade off for his command grab (inhale).

2. It should be a move that is not an exceptional problem if used in teams.

3. Should 1 and 2 be equivalent in value, then it shouldn’t matter at that point, and the last deciding method can be done here. Being easiest to implement could be among the final deciding factors, or whatever the PMDT agrees upon.

As an aside, I would like to note that the majority of Kirby abilities are projectiles (23 of 40, not including flame breaths) which is very fitting for Copy abilities since a projectile is the biggest thing that Kirby lacks in his toolset. Giving Kirby a functional projectile is also a fair trade off for his command grab.

I might write up a whole google doc on proper changes on Kirby's whole moveset with reasons (way more in depth than this comment) like Odds did if I get motivated enough.
I am also interested in viewing your list. Although I have done extensive research in the past few months, there is always a chance that I might have missed something. The more research I have, the better.

I disagree with removing Kirbycide entirely, but I'd love to see that Google Doc. :3
The problem with having Kirbycide, is that it then becomes difficult to justify fixing Kirby fundamentally for the same reasons that it would if dash attack (and all the other problem tools) were to be left alone. If Kirby was actually good fundamentally, and he could Kirbycide (or utilize whichever problem tool), then he would indeed be too good.

Furthermore, tools like Kirbycide really hurt the game. Few people want to watch (or play) a match where a character can win by stalling on a ledge and committing suicide. Kirby’s trademark attack should be used for what it is known to be used for (Starshot, Copy) and not committing suicide.
 
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#83
Kirbycide has been in every Smash game and is an integral part of his unique identity. Removing it entirely would be like gutting U-Tilt, D-Tilt, B-Air, giving him a bad crouch, or removing most of his jumps. It isn't remotely as over-centralizing as Dash Attack.
 

Phan7om

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#85
lol I probably shouldn't have said anything about the google doc, probably never going to get around to it lmaooo. Also Ive only played 3.6 for literally like 30 minutes, probably not the best person for the job because I really dont know everything about him now.
 
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#86
What would you all change about Kirby's non special moves if anything?
If I were a programming/hacking guru, I would give Kirby a different moveset based on many of his copy abilities. It's kinda weird seeing him still have a bunch of generic kicks taken from Fighter after all these years.

More within the realm of plausible changes, I would:
-Give his D-Air a landing hit of 4% to help it lead to more things when used onstage
-Give his U-Tilt an earlier IASA and more KBG, that way it can have its utility against fastfallers but not trap them from 0 to kill percent
-Make U-Throw kill characters at veeeeery late percents and raise its damage to 10%
-Make F-Throw a pop-up that sends closer to Kirby and raise its damage to 7%, which is great for leading into things at low percent and positioning at high percent
-Get rid of Dash Attack's land cancel, probably nerf its distance or speed... and better yet, change its animation from Burn Tackle to Fireball Roll, which would make more sense to be a multi-hit: https://youtu.be/oY7ji8U8Kyo?t=2m51s
-Speed up D-Smash's startup by another couple frames
-Make U-Smash's sweetspot cover his entire foot for the first few frames of the arc rather than some Rest-sized hitbox right next to him
 

skellitorman

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#87
Kirbycide has been in every Smash game and is an integral part of his unique identity. Removing it entirely would be like gutting U-Tilt, D-Tilt, B-Air, giving him a bad crouch, or removing most of his jumps. It isn't remotely as over-centralizing as Dash Attack.
I cannot agree that Kirbycide is an integral part of his unique identity, though this point is not worth debating especially since Kirbycide could still technically exist without being a problem (the problem as stated in my previous post) by adjusting its risk/reward appropriately. In other words, Kirbycide could still be in and not be a problem (by adjusting its risk/reward) even if Kirby is fixed fundamentally.

Also, Kirbycide doesn’t need to be over-centralizing to be a problem. If a Kirby player can stall at a ledge and win by committing suicide, then it creates the problem I stated above.
 
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#88
How would you re-tool it then? For me, all that comes to mind is having significantly more cooldown when you end a whiffed Inhale in the air. That way, the opponent has a more reasonable window to punish any missed Kirbycides, and camping for it at the ledge would be far less effective.
 
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Getsafe

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#89
But yoshi is now the only character that can't get footstooled during his second jump? Why does he need that ability? It's not hard to avoid getting footstooled just manage your recovery better and think ahead.
Yoshi is also the only character who doesn't have a third jump, and every other aspect of his recovery was nerfed. (Egg roll nerf was huge and unjustified, weight reduction means his double jump armor will break sooner and attacks will send him farther obviously)

You have no idea what you're talking about, yoshi was one of the hardest hit characters this patch

And to add, fox nerfs where minor and does not interfere with his gameplay.
I agree that his nerfs were minor, but the aerial shine change is definitely a gameplay change. Allows for some new on stage combos but basically removed shine-spiking
 
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dg-pilz-e

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#90
Yoshi is also the only character who doesn't have a third jump, and every other aspect of his recovery was nerfed. (Egg roll nerf was huge and unjustified, weight reduction means his double jump armor will break sooner and attacks will send him farther obviously)

You have no idea what you're talking about, yoshi was one of the hardest hit characters this patch
While they did nerf him quite a bit he's still a good char. I just find it frustrating how one char is exempt from a mechanic that is meant to punish you when you messed up or you're auto piloting.

Really I wish that they would just get rid of Footstooling in general. =/

Also in regards to this google doc, We could try to make this a community effort on the Kirby boards, Make a seperate thread to discuss ideas, Then as most ideas get to be accepted, We can add it to the doc. That way one person doesn't have to do all the work
Just a thought.
 
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skellitorman

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#91
How would you re-tool it then? For me, all that comes to mind is having significantly more cooldown when you end a whiffed Inhale in the air. That way, the opponent has a more reasonable window to punish any missed Kirbycides, and camping for it at the ledge would be far less effective.
No matter what is done to inhale, if Kirby has the opponent in his mouth and dies while the opponent is inside, then Kirbycide will always exist, satisfying your only counterpoint (its existence). However, the risk/reward on failed attempts could easily be adjusted in a number of ways while still maintaining its existence.

The goal in the adjustment would be to eliminate the skewed incentive for Kirby players to stall at the ledge fishing for Kirbycide, but at the same time the threat would still be there in very specific niche situations (that are not problematic), which is perfectly fine for a move that is OHKO at zero percent.

Also keep in mind, that when Kirby is fixed, then Kirby will be able to win on the ability of the player without Kirbycide, just like they would had they used any other character without a OHKO attack (that is also fundamentally solid). The goal in fixing Kirby is to allow the player's skill to be able to affect the outcome of the match rather than the tools of the character limiting it or overcompensating for it.
 
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skellitorman

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#93
Sounds good, but what specific changes would you make to reach this goal?
Since I am aiming to enter the PMDT, I think that it would be best if I don’t discuss (here) any specifics of the changes that I would make to Kirby.
 
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skellitorman

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#96
So, full 3.6 has given us a Cutter Dash that doesn't suck. Discuss.
Cutter Dash was significantly nerfed.

Due to the new animation, opponents are now able to discern whether Kirby is performing Cutter Dash 13 frames earlier meaning it is now easier to defend against Cutter Dash when used (even as a recovery). Furthermore due to Cutter Dash having a new 13 frame startup animation, Kirby is now no longer able to gain more distance for those 13 frames.

Basically it travels less distance, and now has 13 frames of startup so that an opponent knows what’s coming. It is otherwise exactly the same.

However, the current design of Kirby is just not functional, so I don’t think anyone should complain about this.
 
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#97
It sounded good on paper. Have they just given up on him? >______>

You know your character has issues when you see something on the changelog and expect it to be a buff.
 
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Certix_

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#98
I searched several times to see if I missed any other changes, but alas there were none. All the discussion about Kirby that we have had seems to always lead to that Kirby needs something, and we seem to agree that Kirby needs a speed buff of some sort. Maybe this nerf is to take away from Kirby's bandaid movement options for a later buff to his overall speed? Yet to be seen, but I'm still hopeful for a more viable Kirby.
 
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#99
Yes, the cutter dash was nerfed... But I can get past it. Did they have to make its new animation look so gross though???
 

Jinjo64

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Project m is hopeless when it comes to kirby...hopefully they change something about his development/balancing process so we can actually see a well made character. Also no changes to snake or jigglypuff...pm balance.
 
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Can't say I'm all that surprised, honestly. All I can hope for now is that others are right in thinking this is just an act of sanding off Kirby's short burst options in preparation for better overall speed and air mobility... But I wouldn't want to get my hopes up.
 

Certix_

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Oh, and after browsing the roll and spot dodge normalization data, Kirby gained some extra vulnerability frames at the end of them. Just throwing that out there.
 

Phan7om

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Its funny because every change they've made to Kirby are pretty great changes, but they change him at such a snails pace. We're not gonna see perfect Kirby until version 8.0 lmao. I know this is technically the same version so there werent gonna be that many changes, but its been a trend ever since Kirby existed in this game (which, I know, is like 3 patches lol).
 
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