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[Blade1844]

I was playing some friendlies with a Dee Dee Dee player and other then running into a decent number of grabs, what do you think would improve my playing.

Blade1844[ZSS] vs Crono[DeDeDe]3

 

[Honeythief]

Your link does not work :/

 

[ph00tbag]

NEVER use fsmash. Not even out of stun. Instead, go for another dsmash, and then do some combo out of it. If they're at KO percents, use bair. Never use fsmash. Never never never.

Use dsmash and Plasma Whip for edgeguards. Don't just flip jump off the stage. In fact, try to avoid using Flip Jump from on the stage. That's another move you use too much in the wrong places.

 

[Blade1844]

Link should be fixed. I'm not sure what broke it.

As for fsmash.... When I don't play I am like "Yeah I won't use Fsmah" and when I play it just sort of happens. I wish I had a device that shocked me every time I used it. That would help....

I will watch out more on the flip jumping. Thanks for the comments so far! Keep em coming!!

 

[SpongeBathBill]

NEVER use fsmash. Not even out of stun. Instead, go for another dsmash, and then do some combo out of it. If they're at KO percents, use bair. Never use fsmash. Never never never.

Is that because it's unsafe and uninspiring?

 

[noradseven]

Is that because it's unsafe and uninspiring?

Its pretty terrible sometimes I throw it out to be a **** every few matches, and normally it hits because of how surprised they are, but in reality you can use it to bait people who dodge your over B's too much, and as a meaty on landing people but normally either d-smash or over B is a better option there.

 

[rraws]

1. way too much flip jump in that match...it gets really predictable. It is best used for the dsmash meteor combo, foot stooling out of it, camping the edge, or just general mind games.
2. pressure a lot more with dsmash...try pivoting with it a lot. Once u land one combo it .... if they are at low % use your up b the dsmash to rack up major damage. If the are at high % use a fast fall fair or a bair
3.that match had very poor use of your armor pieces. Glid toss with them, make them bounce all over the place. Point is be creative with them
4. approach with a short hop into forward b, not too much cause it will get predictable but in general is is a solid approach foe zss.
5. use more dtilt.

 

[noradseven]

OP you need more general smash experience all around just play the game more and find 3-4 other people to also do it with, grab kinda rules vs Dedede as well, and so does back air.

2. if they are at low % use your up b the dsmash to rack up major damage. If the are at high % use a fast fall fair or a bair

bwhahahahahahaha *rolls in laughter

4. approach with a short hop into forward b, not too much cause it will get predictable but in general is is a solid approach foe zss.

approach with forward B, uhh no. In close combat sometimes first hit of over B can be great but approaching with forward B, just no.


General knowledge, best 4 on stage D-smash setups are(excluding the weird jab launch)
damage:
D-smash, D-smash, f-air
D-smash, D-smash, grab...
killing:
D-smash, D-smash, back air
D-smash, D-smash (can omit to make it easier), over B

d-smash up B it just doesn't work sorry, well okay at point blank, and low damage, on bigger characters d-smash,d-smash,up B, up tilt/d-tilt connects, but seriously thats pretty specific, and the positioning on it isn't as good.

 

[Snakeee]

I like d-smash x2 - up air for damage racking since it's the most likely to link into more attacks. F-air is better if I think I'm just a little too far away to reach them with up air, plus it does do more base damage assuming both hits connect.

 

[rraws]

approach with forward B, uhh no. In close combat sometimes first hit of over B can be great but approaching with forward B, just no.


i did not say to always do it...I know that's bad. Most of its usage in the match was from a solitary position, I was just saying to use in the air a bit more.
As for the dsmash upb combo, you can land it a good 3 to 4 time on any give character. I know the combo is general knowledge I just did not see much comboing out of the dsmash in the match...that's all

 

[noradseven]

approach with forward B, uhh no. In close combat sometimes first hit of over B can be great but approaching with forward B, just no.


i did not say to always do it...I know that's bad. Most of its usage in the match was from a solitary position, I was just saying to use in the air a bit more.
As for the dsmash upb combo, you can land it a good 3 to 4 time on any give character. I know the combo is general knowledge I just did not see much comboing out of the dsmash in the match...that's all

I mean it doesn't work at all, you can tech out of it, and their are ways to DI out of it despite the fact they are not intuitive. It is a joke among the forums that a whole bunch of n00bies come in and say OMG infinite.

The reason why it doesn't work for sure is that you can only stun again, after they hit the ground thus had time to tech. AKA stun will not work until they hit the ground again.

 

[Blade1844]

I like d-smash x2 - up air for damage racking since it's the most likely to link into more attacks. F-air is better if I think I'm just a little too far away to reach them with up air, plus it does do more base damage assuming both hits connect.

Yeah, looking back I could have done a lot more with dsmashing...

Thanks Snakee, You got any other suggestions?

 

[sasook]

Upb -> dsmash never works more than once against anyone who's half decent at the game.

 

[ThreeSided]

As far as the Up-b Dsmash chain goes, it's definitely escapable. But it's also harder to DI out of for some of the characters with bad DI, like link, and larger characters, like DK, bowser... Not ROB as much for some reason, don't know why... but for them, it's worth giving a shot, especially if they don't have much experience with the chain. Just remember, DO NOT go strait from DDsmash to up-B, walk behind them first so it connects as they come out of the Dsmash. This makes it harder to DI out, since they start from the middle, rather than on the fringe of the whip hit-boxes when you just do it from where you are. You can usually manage to get it out a few times before they escape, though you usually want to end early into something else out of Dsmash to rack up more damage before they can escape.

I wouldn't suggest using it a lot, only because you don't want them to get too used to getting out of it. But when up against the right opponent and character, it can be a good surprise to let out, racking up a large amount of damage in a way your opponent didn't expect.


TO OP: You used.... Dair. A Dair. WTF. NO DAIR. DAIR= BAD UNLESS USED FOR ROB INFINITE. Just avoid it all together...

I didn't scold you for Fsmash only because you already know... Your opponent honestly didn't seem that good, or they would have punished you a lot more.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There are plenty of uses for dair. I actually use it a lot when near the top blast zone because it autocancels when you land.

 

[ThreeSided]

There are plenty of uses for dair. I actually use it a lot when near the top blast zone because it autocancels when you land.

What stages are you playing in? o_O

As far as I know, her Dair takes WAY too long to auto cancel for it to be utilized in most if not all tournament legal stages...

 

[ph00tbag]

Upb -> dsmash never works more than once against anyone who's half decent at the game.

Hate to break it to you, but it actually does. Just not 100% of the time. I use Plasma Wire at high percents to set up dsmash combos against people of all levels. If they tech it, I'm still safe anyway.

 

[KRiMz0N]

fsmash has crazy range and hitboxes behind you so it's a pretty decent gtfo move..

 

[ph00tbag]

fsmash has crazy range and hitboxes behind you so it's a pretty decent gtfo move..

No it's not. It's slow as hell on start-up, and has stupidly huge cooldown. So much so that the rear hitbox is unsafe on hit at low to middle percents. Unsafe on hit.

 

[noradseven]

fsmash has crazy range and hitboxes behind you so it's a pretty decent gtfo move..

The backpart miss's on anyone short, the main advantage the move has is its huge active frames, and stupid priority other than that, its pretty bad its punishable on any kind of block with ease.

 

[sasook]

As far as the Up-b Dsmash chain goes, it's definitely escapable. But it's also harder to DI out of for some of the characters with bad DI, like link, and larger characters, like DK, bowser...

Whoa whoa whoa. I can confidently say Link is one of the best characters when it comes to SDI and momentum canceling.

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being dead serious. Link's has amazing SDI and momentum canceling, it's pretty much the only thing he has that allows him to live consistently to 160%-170%.

 

[ThreeSided]

Whoa whoa whoa. I can confidently say Link is one of the best characters when it comes to SDI and momentum canceling.

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being dead serious. Link's has amazing SDI and momentum canceling, it's pretty much the only thing he has that allows him to live consistently to 160%-170%.

I'm not talking about momentum canceling though. Just his DI. I agree his Momentum canceling and over all DI as far as RECOVERY goes is awesome, but his DI by itself isn't so great, or so I've heard (I don't play a lot of links). I could be wrong, but that's my understanding of it.

 

[Guilty7]

Some things you should work on:

-Be more active. Don't just stand on the same spot. Try to get him into a position to fb him
-Needs more back air. You have little to no air game
-*Never* use her fsmash. At. All. If you happen to down smash your opponent, space out your back air and hit him with that instead. Heck, even your fb can still do good. Just don't get into the habit of doing her fsmash
-Don't always do her downb out of recovery when trying to approach. If he finds you predictable, He'll start thinking ahead and start to punish you. Try to mix it up a bit more.

These are probably the main problems that I could see in the vid. Try watching some other zss vids and see how they play. Visual learning > reading

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I want to second what everyone else is saying: there is never a good time to use fsmash. You might as well pretend it doesn't exist. I've beaten myself out of it so much that when I play other characters, I almost never use it (which is bad, heh). ZSS is a very complex character and not easy to pick up. She doesn't play like the other characters in this game, so the transition is very awkward. She doesn't kill with smashes. Her side-b is her most "traditional" finisher in that it's an attack that extends in front of her and deals a lot of damage. Beyond that, most everything she does is a setup for something else.

The other thing is please try to not use down-b so much, and never use it on-stage. You also need to move and space more. ZSS needs to move.

 

[Guilty7]

I want to second what everyone else is saying: there is never a good time to use fsmash. You might as well pretend it doesn't exist. I've beaten myself out of it so much that when I play other characters, I almost never use it (which is bad, heh). ZSS is a very complex character and not easy to pick up. She doesn't play like the other characters in this game, so the transition is very awkward. She doesn't kill with smashes. Her side-b is her most "traditional" finisher in that it's an attack that extends in front of her and deals a lot of damage. Beyond that, most everything she does is a setup for something else.

The other thing is please try to not use down-b so much, and never use it on-stage. You also need to move and space more. ZSS needs to move.

^ Exactly. Fsmash is horrible, downb is predictable (Unless you footstool on their head, can be used for some mind games if he thinks your going to release the kick) and standing still with zss is like making her a target. It's bad enough a lot of her moves have horrible start up time (including her grab.)

 

[Blade1844]

Alright, all sound opinions. Thanks a bunch.