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How will the competitive scene for SSB4 be?

How will the competitive scene for Super Smash Bros. 4 be?

  • Best in the series

    Votes: 38 20.0%
  • Awesome

    Votes: 51 26.8%
  • Good

    Votes: 29 15.3%
  • Decent

    Votes: 10 5.3%
  • Average

    Votes: 6 3.2%
  • Bad

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Melee and Project M will be played instead

    Votes: 17 8.9%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 15 7.9%
  • Why is there a thread for this now?

    Votes: 24 12.6%

  • Total voters
    190

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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To clarify, I understand that advanced techniques are not necessary to make a game competitive. And I'm not here to state whether or not they would be beneficial to include, because that would only start more **** storms. However, I don't think it's fair to claim that they go against some supposedly correct way to be competitive.
I'll grant that there's no "correct" way to be competitive.

My point is that no one will miss wavedashing if the team does a good enough job on the approach/spacing aspects of the SSB4 because that's what people like about it.

What glitches? L cancelling was intentional, and the developers discovered wavedashing during development, and wavedashing is more of an exploit than a glitch. One, by the way, that probably wouldn't have been hard to change.
L-cancelling was in 64 and I expect it'll be in 4 as well.

The point about wavedashing, like I said, is that if the approach/spacing game is done well enough, it won't be missed (or at least it shouldn't).

As for Brawl, yeah, Brawl was a buggy, unbalanced mess. That's what happens when the directors pours all of the game's budget into derping around with a garbage single player mode instead of focusing on the actual combat of the game.
 

Book Jacket

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
125
Location
New Hampshire
I'll grant that there's no "correct" way to be competitive.

My point is that no one will miss wavedashing if the team does a good enough job on the approach/spacing aspects of the SSB4 because that's what people like about it.



L-cancelling was in 64 and I expect it'll be in 4 as well.

The point about wavedashing, like I said, is that if the approach/spacing game is done well enough, it won't be missed (or at least it shouldn't).

As for Brawl, yeah, Brawl was a buggy, unbalanced mess. That's what happens when the directors pours all of the game's budget into derping around with a garbage single player mode instead of focusing on the actual combat of the game.
L-Cancelling won't be in 4, most likely.

Other than that, it just kinda sounds like you agree with me. And, if you do, I apologize for the unnecessarily long winded posts.
 
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ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
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Considering a Brawl competitive scene exists despite the game's glaring flaws for competitive play, Smash 4 will have a scene. A bigger scene than Brawl, since it already appears more balanced and faster overall. What remains to be seen is if the competitive community will embrace the changes made to some of the more "meta" aspects of the game. The change in ledge mechanics is welcome in my opinion; I like the shake up to the tried and true ledge game. But I'm a causal, so take it as you will.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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Considering a Brawl competitive scene exists despite the game's glaring flaws for competitive play, Smash 4 will have a scene. A bigger scene than Brawl, since it already appears more balanced and faster overall. What remains to be seen is if the competitive community will embrace the changes made to some of the more "meta" aspects of the game. The change in ledge mechanics is welcome in my opinion; I like the shake up to the tried and true ledge game. But I'm a causal, so take it as you will.
I like the ledge change for one real reason: it prevents characters with specific types of recoveries from dropping to F-tier because they're so easily ledge guarded. For example, Gannondorf's recovery is very slow and relied upon the presence of a free ledge (which his foes were all too happy to deny him).

If you want to ledge guard now, you genuinely need to gimp someone to keep them from returning. It'll also make things like "Bowser bomb to ledge" a great deal safer because it seems like you ALWAYS grab a ledge no matter what.
 
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D-idara

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As for Brawl, yeah, Brawl was a buggy, unbalanced mess. That's what happens when the directors pours all of the game's budget into derping around with a garbage single player mode instead of focusing on the actual combat of the game.
Yes, Brawl was the buggy one :D (Massive Sarcasm).
Also, SSE wasn't garbage.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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Yes, Brawl was the buggy one :D (Massive Sarcasm).
http://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl_glitches

And that doesn't even include the ones like Bowser going off the stage after a koopa klaw and disappearing forever, infinite grabs, laser locking or the fact that Marth can mash grab on Ness or Lucas and they can literally NEVER escape.

Seriously, how do you miss these kinds of things in testing?

Also, SSE wasn't garbage.
Objectively speaking, Sakurai had to release a series of updates on the SSBB site explaining the "storyline", since no one understood what the hell it was actually about. That alone suggests that it wasn't all that great.

Beyond that, SSB is and ALWAYS will be a MULTIPLAYER franchise. There's nothing wrong with a game being the BEST multiplayer game it can be, even if that means forsaking single player content (see TF2).

Now, had Brawl shipped with few to no bugs or glitches and with decent balance, there would be little reason for grievances, but the simple fact is that it didn't. It has tons of bugs/glitches, many of which instantly drop certain characters to F-tier and have resulted in the need to ban many, MANY stages (because all it takes is a vertical wall to laser lock someone forever).

Miyamoto cautioned Sakurai during the development of Brawl to not focus too much on single player content, and Sakurai blew him off completely and forged ahead with the SSE, dumping tons of development money and time into something that most players would play through once to unlock all of the characters, then never touch ever again.

Brawl's multiplayer experience suffered tremendously as a result.

Thankfully, there will be no SSE this time around and the Tekken team isn't the type to ignore multiplayer polish in favor of frivolous single-player content.
 
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Dinoman96

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
3,418
SSE was no doubtfully a huge development strain on Brawl...but I wouldn't blame it entirely for the way Brawl is.

The unfortunate thing is, Brawl's downfall was really the fault of Sakurai trying to fix something that didn't really need to be fixed at all.

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."
 

S_B

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SSE was no doubtfully a huge development strain on Brawl...but I wouldn't blame it entirely for the way Brawl is.
It was a general lack of playtesting that left Brawl the way it is.

I mean, the fact that no tester ever stumbled upon the fact that Marth just needs to mash the same button endlessly and Ness/Lucas can never escape speaks volumes about this. HOW did that get missed?

I can understand D3's chaingrabs. I can also understand Bowser's vanishing off the stage if he Bowsercides and his victim is knocked loose by another player (somewhat), though both of these SHOULD have been caught, too.

But seriously, Marth F-tiering Ness and Lucas is just laughably bad QA... And laser locking? WOW...
 
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Neoleo21

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
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From new info in the japan Smash demo, it seems that the ground game is very quick and there are true honest to god combos, the air game is slightly heavier than brawl. It also seems that the majority of the roster in the demo definitely has the tools to combo others and move generally quickly. The off stage ledge game is more risky, but I imagine that's why recoveries were buffed and sweet spotting is much more difficult, once we figure out how to manage the ledge game with the trump mechanic I imagine aggressive plays being more popular with chases. Tilts are VERY good as combo starters, this will be interesting with the pivot cancel and run stop cancel mechanic. Shields break pretty quickly, easily the fastest since 64, so poking and having aggressive spacing is rewarded wit a potentially stunned opponent and a free combo. Moves that have high knock back usually have high landing lag like the Knee (which now has a bigger sweet spot and even better knockback, YES!), but as seen, many characters have other options to fight. Whether it will it have a recognized and large competitive scene won't be determined just by players, its also the spectators. (This is how melee came back to EVO, because of the players AND the viewers who wanted to see it there). Remember Amsa during the invitational Vs Ken? Or Hugs getting Megaman's final smash? Diversity, spectacle and accessibility to compete are what creates a large competitive scene. Lets break it down from what we know about the game and these details.

Will Smash 4 have good diversity unlike Brawl's MK shenanigans and Melee's mostly the same fighters (Fox, Falco, C.Falcon, Sheik, Marth) in tourneys (granted in Melee's case the diversity of these characters is what kept the scene, really similar to MvC2's scene)? Its very likely, thanks to the new developments on custom moves and given what we know right now, there's a very high chance that more characters will be competitively viable and be able to mix up numerous options and spacing, which helps the viewers to see plenty of diversity and the players to experience many new spacing options and situations (which extends the life of the game greatly). There's large evidence to support a 50+ character cast, only promoting diversity here.

Will Smash 4 have spectacle? This is the tricky question, there are good damage combos unlike Brawl, and combos are a key part of the spectacle of a fighter watching a person go crazy on another is fun to see and play. However, in between combos as many know is the "neutral game", the part where zoning, spacing and poking and utilizing momentum play key roles in transitioning to the combo phase. Smash 4 will be tested to see if it succeeds in this regard to reward aggressive spacing and avoid infamous MK spacing doubles. But people have more options to attack shields since they break so quickly and have low lag attacks to do so, but most of the meta beyond that is an unknown to be explored. Length also plays a role here, will matches take too long and bore players and viewers? This question cannot be objectively answered right now, we need to determine the ideal number of stocks and time through testing (My guess is 3 stocks 8 minutes will work well). AT's are tools that should mostly improve the neutral game's speed to transition to the combo phase. Since we've barely scratched the surface here, lets be patient for testing and see what comes up beyond Run stop and pivot cancelling as well as learn how to work the off stage ledge game.

Will Smash 4's scene be accessible to newcomers? At its base Smash has always been a highly accessible franchise, but competitive smash is very odd to describe. Are there challenging inputs in the series? Of course there are, look at the super wavedash and the DACUS. But the real issue is that the scene isn't transparent in the game itself, you HAVE to research yourself instead of the game itself teaching players the advanced stuff, this is an immediate cliff for anyone looking to get into the scene many fighters also suffer from the problem with some having minor degrees of solving it (like Killer instinct's GREAT tutorial on the Xbox One, though its just for Jago and no one else). But this relates back to AT's again, will they be too complicated like DACUS?

So yeah, those are my thoughts on the potential competitive scene, we have to watch it develop because we really don't know much about the meta itself and how that will translate to the competitive scene. I feel the game will have a good competitive scene that'll last a very long time alongside Melee and PM, and I'm very excited to be a part of that scene.
 

JetpackX

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>smash 4 gets played at evo
>people complain the game is too slow
>4 years later, project m u comes out

jk...

but I think this game will have a good competitive scene but i think it also depends on if people from the melee scene are willing to experiment with smash 4.
 
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Triblaze

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In regards to the new information people have secured from the Japanese final build demo, I have very high hopes. The scene will be awesome.
 

goodspeed87

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 15, 2007
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I'm hyped out of my mind, I have a good feeling... I love hearing that it'll reward much more aggressive gameplay (also, in-turn punishing it if you make a mistake, e.g. off-stage chase down).
 

Mysteltainn

Smash Ace
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It's a bit early to tell how the scene will last, but I'm pretty confident in saying that it'll last considerably longer than Brawl's scene did. From what I've seen of the game's footage, things have obviously been sped-up and a lot of elements such as edge-guarding have been revamped. How well will these changes translate to a competitive scene? Well, it'll be up to us, the Smash community to figure that out in due time.

Given the amount of time and energy being put into character balance this time around, and add to that the possibility of patches in case something is obscenely broken... I have an overall very positive feeling about Sm4sh.
 
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