How will the competitive scene for SSB4 be?

[JamietheAuraUser]

Lol @ the people who really think it will be the best in the series.

Lol @ the people who really think it won't be the best in the series, or at least a strong contender for it.

 

[Nat Perry]

I'm guessing bigger than Brawl, but smaller than Melee.

 

[Senario]

Lol @ the people who really think it won't be the best in the series, or at least a strong contender for it.

can we all agree you are both wrong? There is no evidence that it won't be the best considering we haven't even played or seen a final build of the game. But similarly we don't have evidence that it will be the best. It honestly is a toss up right now and saying otherwise feels more like the Hype speaking and not being objective.

 

[mimgrim]

"Why is there a thread for this now?"

I picked that. Because there are already a ton of threads that have the same premise and it gets annoying to see the same things get rehashed over and over.

I mean seriously we have;

http://smashboards.com/threads/afte...ash-4-will-be-a-good-competitive-game.362461/
http://smashboards.com/threads/will-smash-4-be-a-good-competitive-game.354293/
http://smashboards.com/threads/will-smash-4-be-competitive.351995/
http://smashboards.com/threads/why-...become-the-most-competitive-smash-yet.349336/

And there is more then that.

Talking about competitive play is fine and dandy I like to lurk those discussion and chime in here and there, but mainly just lurk while waiting for the game to come out so I can get a firmer grasp fr the gameplay, but are so many duplicate threads necessary? ;-;

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I have no problem admitting that I believe this will be the most competitive Smash game in the series to date. Only the stubborn-minded, fan boys of Melee who refuse to try, let alone accept something new will think otherwise.
I see a game where most, if not all the cast has a chance in the meta, and the game's diversity will be astonishingly larger then Melee/Brawl ever was, especially with the addition of custom moves.
Seriously people, this is the first time Sakurai is trying to make the game competitively focused at all....it WILL be the best competitive game.
99.99% chance, imho.
Sorry Fox fans.

 

[Canuckduck]

"Why is there a thread for this now?"

I picked that. Because there are already a ton of threads that have the same premise and it gets annoying to see the same things get rehashed over and over.

I mean seriously we have;

http://smashboards.com/threads/afte...ash-4-will-be-a-good-competitive-game.362461/
http://smashboards.com/threads/will-smash-4-be-a-good-competitive-game.354293/
http://smashboards.com/threads/will-smash-4-be-competitive.351995/
http://smashboards.com/threads/why-...become-the-most-competitive-smash-yet.349336/

And there is more then that.

Talking about competitive play is fine and dandy I like to lurk those discussion and chime in here and there, but mainly just lurk while waiting for the game to come out so I can get a firmer grasp fr the gameplay, but are so many duplicate threads necessary? ;-;

I haven't seen those threads on the front page for a while.

 

[Vkrm]

Lol @ the people who really think it won't be the best in the series, or at least a strong contender for it.

I honestly don't even think it'll be as good as 64. That's not to say 64 is bad. It's actually quite underrated. Ultimately I believe smash 4 will have its time as the main smash game while its the flavor of the month but lose out to melee and PM over time.

 

[mimgrim]

It's called using the search engine seen at the top right corner of the site. >_>

And the very first one I listed is indeed on the first page. >_>

 

[Senario]

I have no problem admitting that I believe this will be the most competitive Smash game in the series to date. Only the stubborn-minded, fan boys of Melee who refuse to try, let alone accept something new will think otherwise.
I see a game where most, if not all the cast has a chance in the meta, and the game's diversity will be astonishingly larger then Melee/Brawl ever was, especially with the addition of custom moves.
Seriously people, this is the first time Sakurai is trying to make the game competitively focused at all....it WILL be the best competitive game.
99.99% chance, imho.
Sorry Fox fans.

The presupposition on the competitive community is so real. None of which is true btw.

And lol, keep thinking that the whole cast would have an equal chance. In most any single version of a fighting game no matter how balanced this usually isn't true. Some characters will be plain bad and with as many chars as there are I am fairly sure it'll be at least half the roster.

Also lol, Sakurai isn't making the game competitive focused at all. Not that it is any consolation, Sakurai can balance just about as well as a drunk guy on a thin balance beam. Nintendo does balancing better, look at the PAL version of melee.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

The presupposition on the competitive community is so real. None of which is true btw.

And lol, keep thinking that the whole cast would have an equal chance. In most any single version of a fighting game no matter how balanced this usually isn't true. Some characters will be plain bad and with as many chars as there are I am fairly sure it'll be at least half the roster.

Also lol, Sakurai isn't making the game competitive focused at all. Not that it is any consolation, Sakurai can balance just about as well as a drunk guy on a thin balance beam. Nintendo does balancing better, look at the PAL version of melee.

That was quick.
K, sure.

 

[ferioku]

Customizable moves and attributes seem like something you can sell for in game money and likely because of that the rolls or stats on each piece of equipment are likely randomized. And random is not good for competitive viability, same with having to farm up the same bonus you want to use for max stats. And that is before balance issues

Customizable move sets have nothing to do with attributes, just remove the equipment and add the move sets, it won't have any affects on the move sets either way.

 

[Senario]

Customizable move sets have nothing to do with attributes, just remove the equipment and add the move sets, it won't have any affects on the move sets either way.

True, It might have just been an idea of mine seeing as I've played a lot of games where certain items let you do unique things but they rely on a "Roll" of the item to determine power or magnitude of stat boosts.

 

[Bladeviper]

True, It might have just been an idea of mine seeing as I've played a lot of games where certain items let you do unique things but they rely on a "Roll" of the item to determine power or magnitude of stat boosts.

well i think they already said the same item can have different stats so mo one should be surprised if thats how it goes

 

[ferioku]

True, It might have just been an idea of mine seeing as I've played a lot of games where certain items let you do unique things but they rely on a "Roll" of the item to determine power or magnitude of stat boosts.

Yeah I think its different in sm4sh's case. There is even an option in the menu to take custom move sets off i think, but seing how Palutena and Mii Fighters are based off of these move sets, I think it will be fair to allow everyone to use them. I also think this allows weaker characters to stand against characters that are considered top tier.

Although, equip able items and amiibos in the other hand will never be used for competitive gaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIgI63X2zk&list=UUkmP59n7648ESU0PJsJMiRw

 

[Canuckduck]

Yeah I think its different in sm4sh's case. There is even an option in the menu to take custom move sets off i think, but seing how Palutena and Mii Fighters are based off of these move sets, I think it will be fair to allow everyone to use them. I also think this allows weaker characters to stand against characters that are considered top tier.

Although, equip able items and amiibos in the other hand will never be used for competitive gaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIgI63X2zk&list=UUkmP59n7648ESU0PJsJMiRw

I would prefer it if they just banned that aspect.

 

[Senario]

Yeah I think its different in sm4sh's case. There is even an option in the menu to take custom move sets off i think, but seing how Palutena and Mii Fighters are based off of these move sets, I think it will be fair to allow everyone to use them. I also think this allows weaker characters to stand against characters that are considered top tier.

Although, equip able items and amiibos in the other hand will never be used for competitive gaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIgI63X2zk&list=UUkmP59n7648ESU0PJsJMiRw

Chances are though that custom moves will likely not be balanced and could also make an already good character too good. Tourney wise it is unfair to say that every character can use custom moves except that one so it has to be an unfortunate binary where you use it or dont. Custom moves may take too long to set up though, and smash tourneys even in melee have longer match times than traditional fighters.

 

[pickle962]

Chances are though that custom moves will likely not be balanced and could also make an already good character too good. Tourney wise it is unfair to say that every character can use custom moves except that one so it has to be an unfortunate binary where you use it or dont. Custom moves may take too long to set up though, and smash tourneys even in melee have longer match times than traditional fighters.

Chances are being a negative nancy about everything is having adverse effects on your health? 100/100

 

[Senario]

Chances are being a negative nancy about everything is having adverse effects on your health? 100/100

Did anybody ask you? Why do you care? My health is doing perfectly fine. I just said custom moves may not work for competitive due to setup time and the chance for a good character go become a bit too good, not that they cant work just that they likely wont be added soon to competitive play without a lot of testing.

 

[Starphoenix]

Don't put me in a position where I have to shut this thread down like the myriad of other Sm4sh competitive commentary threads.

 

[pickle962]

Did anybody ask you? Why do you care? My health is doing perfectly fine. I just said custom moves may not work for competitive due to setup time and the chance for a good character go become a bit too good, not that they cant work just that they likely wont be added soon to competitive play without a lot of testing.

oh okay! my bad

 

[Canuckduck]

Don't put me in a position where I have to shut this thread down like the myriad of other Sm4sh competitive commentary threads.

I have to ask, what results in a thread being locked down?

I don't see the problems with this one.

 

[Starphoenix]

I have to ask, what results in a thread being locked down?

I don't see the problems with this one.

When the thread devolves into arguments between anti-Melee fanboys vs. neutral or pro-Melee fanboys, that's when we shut things down. Almost always happens at some point, so hopefully precedent won't take place this time.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Chances are though that custom moves will likely not be balanced and could also make an already good character too good. Tourney wise it is unfair to say that every character can use custom moves except that one so it has to be an unfortunate binary where you use it or dont. Custom moves may take too long to set up though, and smash tourneys even in melee have longer match times than traditional fighters.

There is, or was at least, another thread specifically for discussion of custom moves in tournaments, and all the points you just made have already been covered multiple times.

 

[Canuckduck]

I honestly don't even think it'll be as good as 64. That's not to say 64 is bad. It's actually quite underrated. Ultimately I believe smash 4 will have its time as the main smash game while its the flavor of the month but lose out to melee and PM over time.

Are you kidding me? I'd honestly play Sm4sh WITHOUT wavedashing as opposed to the other games.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't like the idea of this thread at all. :/

That said, the obvious answer is yes it will. The other answer is, we don't know because demo builds and what people can do we also don't know.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think the Smash 4 competitive scene will be pretty good. With Namco-Bandai helping Sakurai with balancing I think the game will be much more balanced than previous Smash games, and I think the game mechanics are being put together with more care than Brawl, so I think it'll maintain a strong scene up until the next Smash comes out, especially because it should have good online. Melee/PM's scene aren't going away any time soon, however, so hopefully we can find a way for the two communities to peacefully coexist, since I think Smash 4 will be strong enough competitively to hold up longer than Brawl, and will be free of most of the major balance issues that killed it.

 

[ferioku]

Chances are though that custom moves will likely not be balanced and could also make an already good character too good. Tourney wise it is unfair to say that every character can use custom moves except that one so it has to be an unfortunate binary where you use it or dont. Custom moves may take too long to set up though, and smash tourneys even in melee have longer match times than traditional fighters.

I dont see it having that much of an impact at all. Look at mario's fire orb and quick scope for example. Fire orb offers mort hitstun and damage in replacement for range and speed, whilst thr quick fireballs will not cause any flinching whilst giving the farthest range and speed. It's a change but it won't impact gameplay too much. We can't just ban aomething because we don't like the idea. Also, setting up would most likely take less than a minute so I'm sure that wouldn't affect anyone. And besides, even if there were imbalances with certqin moves then why not just ban the ones that are OP

 

[Senario]

I dont see it having that much of an impact at all. Look at mario's fire orb and quick scope for example. Fire orb offers mort hitstun and damage in replacement for range and speed, whilst thr quick fireballs will not cause any flinching whilst giving the farthest range and speed. It's a change but it won't impact gameplay too much. We can't just ban aomething because we don't like the idea. Also, setting up would most likely take less than a minute so I'm sure that wouldn't affect anyone. And besides, even if there were imbalances with certqin moves then why not just ban the ones that are OP

Because what determines if it is OP? It may be optimal yes but having to ban specific moves because they are too good would simply not create an even gameplay field. It is like if you played with smashballs and only allowed certain characters to use them because some char's final smashes are OP.

Unfotunately custom moves are a binary you either let everybody use every one they have at their disposal or you don't allow them at all. And right now there is more chance for people to just play vanilla instead of having to deal with all this custom move stuff.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Because what determines if it is OP? It may be optimal yes but having to ban specific moves because they are too good would simply not create an even gameplay field. It is like if you played with smashballs and only allowed certain characters to use them because some char's final smashes are OP.

Unfotunately custom moves are a binary you either let everybody use every one they have at their disposal or you don't allow them at all. And right now there is more chance for people to just play vanilla instead of having to deal with all this custom move stuff.

Why does it have to be binary? Depending on how the custom movelist rules work, you could simply just ban any move that is deemed "unfair." It would be as simple as DQing anyone who uses the move. Each B move now has 3 presets, so in the end, it's far from binary.

 

[P.J.☆]

I'm pretty sure this game will have a competitive scene. Nothing this game could do would be so broken it would warrant a competitive boycott. So on that note even if some people won't play the game competitively cause of various reasons that's fine, but there will be some people who will play this game and contribute to it's competitive scene. Still, the games not even out yet. Just give it a chance!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Because what determines if it is OP? It may be optimal yes but having to ban specific moves because they are too good would simply not create an even gameplay field. It is like if you played with smashballs and only allowed certain characters to use them because some char's final smashes are OP.

Unfotunately custom moves are a binary you either let everybody use every one they have at their disposal or you don't allow them at all. And right now there is more chance for people to just play vanilla instead of having to deal with all this custom move stuff.

I'm more concerned on the time aspect than I am anything else right now.

 

[Senario]

I'm more concerned on the time aspect than I am anything else right now.

That is also a concern, even if custom moves are balanced how long does it take to change them out? The stage banning process already takes a fair amount of time, then you have the actual match which again...smash matches take longer than a typical fighting game match at "99 seconds" (It isn't really 99 seconds per round in some cases).

If it were like marvel and you can easily access it while picking your character (Press Y or something to open up a menu and do it) that would be fine. But if you have to go to an entirely different option out of the vs menu then it might take a bit too long.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If moves are easy to swap out and people don't take forever, I don't mind them being legal. If it takes a while and people need to set it up at each system. Then I think that is a legitimate time concern I would consider banning them for time issues.

Still for a side tournament, I would maybe see if they are time issues if I would host it just to let a limited amount of people to try it out more/ Still this is if they are a time issue.

 

[pizzapie7]

How difficult and time consuming could it possibly be though? Why not just make it like Marvel assists or SF Ultras? I'm sure they have some foresight for things like this. Nobody wants to go back to the main menu every time they switch a character.

 

[Vkrm]

Are you kidding me? I'd honestly play Sm4sh WITHOUT wavedashing as opposed to the other games.

I don't know this relates to what I said.

 

[Canuckduck]

I don't know this relates to what I said.

I'm saying that I believe that the game will be close to, if not THE best in the series, even better than 64. This is regardless of whether or not wavedashing is in the game.

 

[S_B]

It's not about that, though. We want advanced techniques to be present in some form, whether intentionally or unintentionally, because we like the freedom of choice that Melee has to offer.

In Melee, you have so much control over your character, so much freedom of choice within the environment, that it allows for incredibly diverse and creative play across the board. Fighting in Melee feels like a creative sandbox, where your movements are your choice at all times, and it's a great feeling. You can use any attack wherever thanks to wavedashing. You can't do down tilts out of dash, or a backward sliding forward smash. It was because of an advanced technique that we have that freedom of control.

We don't just want the game to be senselessly harder, and we don't want to have some kind of superficial edge over the competition. We just want to have freedom.

Edit: to clarify, it's not about the game feeling like Melee. It's just about control and freedom.

Sounds like you want to play some form of competitive Garry's Mod, not a fighting game.

SSB4 can be competitive in the manner fighting games are SUPPOSED to be competitive: by being deep and involved, not by players exploiting the crap out of glitch after glitch and calling them "advanced techniques".

The Tekken team will be paying actual attention to balance this time around, not to mention we'll likely see post release balance patches. Nintendo is taking too much of an interest in the competitive side of SSB this time around to not be aware of this kind of thing.

If any SSB had a chance of REALLY being competitive (and not glitch competitive), it's this one.

 

[pizzapie7]

SSB4 can be competitive in the manner fighting games are SUPPOSED to be competitive: by being deep and involved, not by players exploiting the crap out of glitch after glitch and calling them "advanced techniques".

I'm curious as to what you're referring to. Please enlighten me.

 

[Beats]

Sounds like you want to play some form of competitive Garry's Mod, not a fighting game.

SSB4 can be competitive in the manner fighting games are SUPPOSED to be competitive: by being deep and involved, not by players exploiting the crap out of glitch after glitch and calling them "advanced techniques".

The Tekken team will be paying actual attention to balance this time around, not to mention we'll likely see post release balance patches. Nintendo is taking too much of an interest in the competitive side of SSB this time around to not be aware of this kind of thing.

It's not like the presence of advanced techniques has removed the need for fundamentals and mind games, which I assume are things you are referring to in "the manner fighting games are SUPPOSED to be competitive". And anyway, isn't the essence of competition to use what you have been given to the best of your abilities in order to increase your chances of winning? It is this very reason that people use advanced techniques.

To clarify, I understand that advanced techniques are not necessary to make a game competitive. And I'm not here to state whether or not they would be beneficial to include, because that would only start more **** storms. However, I don't think it's fair to claim that they go against some supposedly correct way to be competitive.

 

[Book Jacket]

Sounds like you want to play some form of competitive Garry's Mod, not a fighting game.

SSB4 can be competitive in the manner fighting games are SUPPOSED to be competitive: by being deep and involved, not by players exploiting the crap out of glitch after glitch and calling them "advanced techniques".

The Tekken team will be paying actual attention to balance this time around, not to mention we'll likely see post release balance patches. Nintendo is taking too much of an interest in the competitive side of SSB this time around to not be aware of this kind of thing.

What glitches? L cancelling was intentional, and the developers discovered wavedashing during development, and wavedashing is more of an exploit than a glitch. One, by the way, that probably wouldn't have been hard to change.

And as far as that goes, the combo system in street fighter 2 was originally a glitch, and that is universally seen as a good thing. Just because it's a glitch doesn't mean it's bad. That game was the first really deep fighting game and everything that would go on to shape the genre was based on a glitch.

And if we're gonna talk about competitive smash and glitches, are we going to talk about glide tossing, and quick attack cancels? Are we going to talk about diddy's numerous tripping exploits? Meta Knight's exploits of nearly every aspect of the game?

We call those advanced techniques. Because (get this) they are. They were written into the games code, so for better or worse, they exist. In Melee as well as Brawl and 64, there's plenty to show for accidental depth.

I don't even know where you got the garry's mod comment. Doesn't even really connect.

Also, really not worried about the balance. Balance is gonna be fine, I'm sure.

What I want, what every other person (and there are many) who has ever said anything remotely similar to that which argument which I am now typing, is for Smash to have that level of control. We want this sandbox of options, this brilliant palette of a fighting game to play with. To invent with.

I bolded the thing you said about depth. And as far as depth goes, consider this: we're still finding new stuff in Melee. Still finding new ways to play characters (See: aMSa, Armada, Axe (and that's just the beginning of the alphabet)), new ways to combo, and new techniques to use. Over a decade after it's release. I want that for Smash 4. I want people to still find inventive and creative ways to play years into the game's lifespan.

Melee is a shining example of that, so why not bring it up, and why not ask for the level of control it granted players? It's not the only game to be like that, I'm sure, and it won't be the last, but I'll be damned if it isn't good.

I don't know if you've ever played high-level Melee. I'm not great, but I have moments where I do really well. It feels awesome. I can't say the same about Brawl. I just can't. I feel like I'm accomplishing something in Melee, I feel like I'm in charge, like I have total control, and everything I do right (especially with Captain Falcon) feels phenomenal. Almost (read: almost) like how I feel when I read some of my best writing. It's a great feeling.

It's that. That's what I want.

I'd TL;DR but I don't have a good short way to put that and if anyone even cares they're gonna at least skim the thing (genuinely kinda sorry about the size of the post though)