holy **** uair
Yeah, I probably buffered a roll or spotdodge and got hit during the startup vulnerability. Otherwise, I must have transitioned the shield to a smaller size which got poked
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Does Ganon really have much character specific tech? I was thinking about that the other day, and his most useful stuff (wavelands and ledge stuff) are pretty universal. I guess the stomp chains, cg, and untechable stomp (NEED to work on that), but is that all?
Untechable stomp isn't character specific, it just seems to be since Ganon is the only character for whom it's relevant since most characters don't go for meteors above the stage.
Perfect wavelands are effectively character specific tech since most characters either have one frame inputs for them or can't at all. Same goes for ledgehop NIL, Pseudodashing, etc.
Side B cancelling on platforms comes to mind, though it's not all that useful.
The main thing that I think Ganons need to get better at is edge canceling up B when recovering high; I've only really seen Kage do it consistently.
Perfect wavelands are effectively character specific tech since most characters either have one frame inputs for them or can't at all. Same goes for ledgehop NIL, Pseudodashing, etc.
Side B cancelling on platforms comes to mind, though it's not all that useful.
The main thing that I think Ganons need to get better at is edge canceling up B when recovering high; I've only really seen Kage do it consistently.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Huh... Whenever I try to RLD and use the control stick to let go of the ledge, I always seem to just not get high enough to consistently get the reverse waveland, or I have a much smaller window to do it and roll or shield instead of waveland when I do it that way. Not to mention the countless times that I would be trying to jump with Y when letting go of the ledge with control stick back and I would be still holding back for like a frame and do a back flip instead and just air-dodge into the stage and die. I tried letting go of the ledge by hitting down and towards the stage, which proved to be really easy and consistent for normal ledge-dashes, but for reverse ones it just wasn't getting me high enough and I was too inconsistent with it. But it depends on what side of the stage I'm doing it on too, which is even weirder.
So now I'm using c-stick down to let go of the ledge on the right side of the stage and RLD that way, but on the left side I can still do it fine with the control stick. Like it's so weird and topsy-tervy like that but if it's the way I do my tech the best then I'll glady keep practicing it. It just feels really weird just because it's on two different sides. It's much like how I can consistently do frame perfect short hop fairs or knees or whatever to the left side, but it's near impossible for me to do to the right with the c-stick. I have to use the control stick and A. That could be something else I should practice.
Studying the falcon MU recently. Need to CC a lot more, and punish off of grabs way harder. I have no idea when to pseudo chaingrab vs when to take the hit. Probably should just take the hit if it puts them offstage or if the next grab doesn't trap them at all (via forced DI to corner or platform, or regrab)
PSA, when falcon uthrows you onto platform at mid %, and it's the infamous setup for uair -> knee, you can amsah tech the uair (or just ASDI down and slide off the platform). I've died to that without that knowledge so many times...
Uair and nair are also just super CCable in general. If you know he'll do it in neutral, you can def use that to get a grab
PSA, when falcon uthrows you onto platform at mid %, and it's the infamous setup for uair -> knee, you can amsah tech the uair (or just ASDI down and slide off the platform). I've died to that without that knowledge so many times...
Uair and nair are also just super CCable in general. If you know he'll do it in neutral, you can def use that to get a grab
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
im on melee net play hmu; Paperstsoapco
What's this untechable stomp you guys are talking about? If it refers to spiking opponent from DownBound (missed tech animation) frame 1 as a quick search on these boards would seem to imply, then it's very weird name to give for the phenomenon. You'll only be able to hit the opponent out of DownBound frame 1, on which the opponent is launched as if he was grounded, if he missed the initial tech in the first place.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
It's when you hit them before they tech. Stomp a Falco on fd when he's at 25% try to time another stomp so it hits him a frame or 2 before he hits the ground, you'll pop him up again. The tech opportunity is completely overlapped by dair hitlag.
Nope. If you hit him before he touches ground, he'll get knocked down normally on the ground. He gets bounced up if you hit him exactly as he lands, but in that case he could also have teched instead.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
There's a different window depending on the exact animation he's in when he lands, some it seems fp and some is much easier (when Falco is on his back, "laying" flat in midair with limbs up), I think the frame window extends to 2 frames. I'm sure it has to do with the ECB but I can't test stuff. Go ahead and try it out before you say they can tech.
I've hit this on people well over 100x, they all say WTF when they get popped up again as they were trying to tech.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
If you let go of the ledge going down with the control stick you fast fall, so the timing is harder. If you're doing it that way that's probably why you have trouble getting high enough. Here are my inputs for both ledgedash and RLD assuming I'm on the left ledge:
Ledgedash:
, + , + RLD:
, + , + I flick the control stick back and forth like a pivot to get it out in time. As you said, I have similar inputs for both so it's easy to switch between the two seemlessly. And this motion was easy to get into my muscle memory because it's a very distinct flick. I think you'd have a lot more success with this method than using the c stick to let go of the ledge because then you have to bring your thumb all the way up to Y or X after, making it harder to be as precise.
Oh and I totally know what you mean by the fp aerials being harder on the right side. I can't do fp bair on the right side with the c stick, so I just do a and control stick for that, but I only do that if I really want to get out a fp bair. For example, doing fh bair into landing bair or wl.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
What do you mean by take the hit?
Also that DI down/amsah tech on the platform is a game changer. Gravy told me the most important cc to land is the one on the platform. After I leaned that, I usually got an extra stock off most games lol.
You can also do something similar if he uairs you out of the uthrow. DI onto the platform so you have the cc/amsah tech options and you force him to react to your tech. And if he's not fast enough, shield drop uair ftw.
And just in general, diagonal DI and SDI down and away when you don't have platforms makes it way harder for him to follow up after uair/Nair. When he's conditioned into using a lot of momentum to catch you, you can start DIing more inward in the hopes he'll go right past you.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
X WaNtEd X
you don't just keep holding forward for the wL of ledgedash?Also tm means take the free hit
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
I just roll the stick down slightly. But I can't represent that angle with these emots
Also tm means take the free hit
I did as a matter of fact. Did plenty of testing with Dair -> dair on Marth and Falco among some other set ups. Got pop up a lot of the time when not teching, but I was never unable to tech the initial hit when tried. I think whoever did develop mode analysis didn't take into account that landing is subframe occurrence. If you hit someone as they land, there's never a rendered image of the landing and going frame by frame doesn't show it either before the getting hit animation takes over.
It's possible that I'm wrong too, I'm gonna ask for someone to research it independently.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
T
tauKhan
it seems crazy to me that so many people always miss the tech, including porkchops, who was ranked 54th globally in 2014. It's also the easiest tech to land. Who gets stomped, has about 60 frames to react (no DI), and doesn't attempt to tech. If nothing else, it disturbs the tech window. I've NEVER had anyone tech, and they often ask me why they couldn't.
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-ACE-
You mean they literally never tech before the stomp? It's close to frame perfect to getting the pop up happen, and when they tech before you might be thinking that you were late on the stomp where in fact the tech just happened before hitbox collision was checked. Anyway I'm now going to wait until I know what's the truth with 100% confidence
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
NEVER
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I think you mean on the right ledge because if you press the control stick to the right on the left ledge, you just get up normally.If you let go of the ledge going down with the control stick you fast fall, so the timing is harder. If you're doing it that way that's probably why you have trouble getting high enough. Here are my inputs for both ledgedash and RLD assuming I'm on the left ledge:
Ledgedash:
RLD:
I flick the control stick back and forth like a pivot to get it out in time. As you said, I have similar inputs for both so it's easy to switch between the two seemlessly. And this motion was easy to get into my muscle memory because it's a very distinct flick. I think you'd have a lot more success with this method than using the c stick to let go of the ledge because then you have to bring your thumb all the way up to Y or X after, making it harder to be as precise.
Oh and I totally know what you mean by the fp aerials being harder on the right side. I can't do fp bair on the right side with the c stick, so I just do a and control stick for that, but I only do that if I really want to get out a fp bair. For example, doing fh bair into landing bair or wl.
Actually, what's really nice about using the c-stick is that I use it to let go of the ledge, and I hit up on my control stick to tap jump in order to double jump, and I can do it pretty much frame perfectly every time. In fact, for ledge-hop upairs, I hit down on c-stick and up on control stick, to up on c-stick all in like 3 frames or so, and I can do that 100% of the time without ever messing up or SDing. Like it's so insanely easy for me to do ledge-hop upair that I can do it in my sleep lol.
The only thing I know about using c-stick when it comes to aerials is that it takes input once every two frames, and it only reads an input again after the initial input when it passes by one of the notches. This means if you roll your c-stick for 3 frames or more when you let go of the ledge and you go over one of the notches, the first frame you will let go of the ledge like normal, but the 3rd frame you will do an aerial. I'm not super sure about how the c-stick works for aerials and input, cause I have felt like sometimes I have "buffered" aerials unwantedly when letting go of the ledge, but it's simply because I'm not hitting it and letting go of it fast enough. When I ledgehop upair, I hit down on the c-stick and then up on it so fast that it has no time to register anything put the letting go of the ledge input.
T tauKhan maybe you can explain more how the c-stick reads inputs when a character is in the air.
ASDI slide off counter attacks are legit vs a lot of aerials on platforms. I'm not sure about ganon, but I think you should be able to uair the falcon back almost everytime unless you get knocked too far. At least uair counter works well in the falcon ditto.
RedmanSSBM
I don't know how the c-stick inputs for aerials work exactly, but it's indeed easy to get new aerial inputs accidentally by moving the stick a bit inside the aerial input zone. If your input movement for the ledgedrop isn't straight line, aerial can happen afterwards.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Ganon's bair would work in a lot of situations but not all, depending on how falcon is spaced with either a dash approach or a non-dash approach, whether he's crossing up or not, and what direction Ganon is facing.
The uair hit always turns you to face against the direction you're sliding to. Usually when falcons try to uair combo, they try to be in front of you all the time. If he goes fast jump -> uair you from very close distance and ends up behind you, then you can bair. Anyway it's not usually hard to decide which is the correct aerial in practice.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Oh yeah I meant facing left my b
Yeah I figured you were using c stick to let go of the ledge. But are you letting go with it going down or to the side?
The tap jump makes up for it. But the thing is that in order to ledgedash from that you need to then move your control stick from the up position to the side. That's a lot harder to do than just moving it back and forth from side to side. And then when you do RLD, you'll have to go up and then slightly backward, which is very easy to mess up out of tap jump. I just tried doing it with your method and found myself having the same problems you were.
I guess buffering aerials from the ledge might save you a few frames. So maybe that makes sense. But again, I think consistency and having a method that works well for multiple ledge options is more worthwhile. I might steal your c-stick method for ledgehop uair regrab though. That's the one ledge tech where I'm forced to tap jump no matter what because it's so fast. I currently let go of the ledge with control stick to the side, then I tap jump up and c stick uair at the same time. But when I do regular ledgehop uair I use the same method as ledgedash and RLD. It took longer to get down consistently than my other basic ledge options (even RLD), but it was worth it because now I can switch between that and the other ledge options I have way easier without having to think.
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No, normal attacks always turn you to face the attackers topN when you get hit regardless of your position when you got hit. I think projectiles have fixed direction to which the victim turns to instead.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
What if you're ASDI'ing down in the opposite direction?
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I let go of the edge using down on c-stick since that feels the most natural to me, but sometimes I'll do it by hitting away on c-stick.
I find it easier for me to do the quarter circle rotation up into forward than to press Y in the middle of me going back and forth on the control stick, cause sometimes I hit Y too early when doing that and I do a backflip instead of a normal double jump and that messes with my ECB and you basically SD as a result. I'm finding my RLDs to be much more consistent when I use the c-stick method of letting go of the ledge, at least on the right side of the stage, so I'll keep using that one.
For ledge-hop upair regrab, I actually just use A instead of c-stick, as A feels a little faster to me and I get it way more consistently with A than c-stick, but I still do a quarter circle away to up to let to and double jump, but of course doing it that way ensure you will never aerial to your death lol.
ForTheLulz
Smash Apprentice
I got myself on a stream
wasn't even playing with my controller lol
https://www.twitch.tv/rmhssmash/v/72413746
wasn't even playing with my controller lol
https://www.twitch.tv/rmhssmash/v/72413746
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It seems the "untechable stomp" works exactly as I predicted at least with characters that are not puff/kirby/dk . If you hit someone in the air, the game prevents the victims ECB from colliding into ground the same way you can't SDI into ground. If the victim pops up after stomp, it means he was already grounded when hit and had opportunity to tech.
I'm not saying that the untechable stomp is not viable strategy though; It's probably a good way to cover no tech option while still leaving you able to punish other options. Might be difficult to l-cancel the dair both when hitting and whiffing due to tech invulnerability, but not too hard by any means.
It's also kind of a tech trap, since it's hard to tell if the stomp hits you before or after landing, and it might make the opponent delay his input and miss tech because of that. The tech input window that covers both bounce off and knockdown tech is very small, and even if they get the tech before your stomp, you can still chase after.
I'm not saying that the untechable stomp is not viable strategy though; It's probably a good way to cover no tech option while still leaving you able to punish other options. Might be difficult to l-cancel the dair both when hitting and whiffing due to tech invulnerability, but not too hard by any means.
It's also kind of a tech trap, since it's hard to tell if the stomp hits you before or after landing, and it might make the opponent delay his input and miss tech because of that. The tech input window that covers both bounce off and knockdown tech is very small, and even if they get the tech before your stomp, you can still chase after.
Doesn't change anything except you might buffer tilt turn after landing is over, and you've probably already slid off or the turn gets canceled anyway. In some cases it might be possible to smash turn before you slide off.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Glennwood
Smash Cadet
What are some effective methods you guys use to practice your tech skill? I usually just play casual matches with friends and practice it through that and it helps me implement in my playing but doesn't do much for me in terms of learning the execution of it as I'm getting pummeled if I mess whatever I'm trying to master up. Just was curious on how everyone else goes about it.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
The lab. Countless hours spent burying these things in my muscle memory until I'm literally not even capable of doing the "casual" ledge options anymore. It takes conscious thought for me to do a slow get up or tournament winner.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Careful Ace, no need to flame the guy. I can understand where he's coming from, he's ultimately trying to help, not be a nuisance to you.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'm going to be EXTRA careful.
LOL.
The guy is always hellbent on proving a point, he's not here to help me lol. Pretty funny to say stuff like untechable stomp is a strange name (hinting toward it being wrong), saying "nope" to my explanation, and then coming back and saying "guess I was right" when he didn't even test it. I mean really.
LOL.
The guy is always hellbent on proving a point, he's not here to help me lol. Pretty funny to say stuff like untechable stomp is a strange name (hinting toward it being wrong), saying "nope" to my explanation, and then coming back and saying "guess I was right" when he didn't even test it. I mean really.
Bair or ftilt / dtilt after non-away DI on uthrow, or ftilt / dtilt away DI on dthrow at applicable %s. As opposed to regrabbing them
I've actually always believed that untechable stomp wasn't real due to frame 1 tech intangibility and the so-called "forbidden SDI property" which prevents victims from transitioning between the ground and the air during hitlag. But I didn't want to start anything
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
If you want I'll change it to "hardly anyone techs this, works like a charm in game but on paper it sucks" stomp.
I'd like to see a video proving you can tech, but one would have to know the precise spacing. Maybe miom top 100 players just blow ass at teching in the easiest of situations.
I'd like to see a video proving you can tech, but one would have to know the precise spacing. Maybe miom top 100 players just blow ass at teching in the easiest of situations.
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![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
hey guys. finally got to play on the official state smash stream. here are some matches from the tournament! not necessarily looking for critique but feel free to say whatever you want about the matches
grand finals, bowser and ganondorf vs falco (skip to 8:30 for ganondorf):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfyahXZHgo
winners semis, falco and ganondorf vs fox (skip to 7:00 for ganondorf, falco match afterwards): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-caSVv360zk
round one winners, ganondorf vs marth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1aKsJXGpdE
more matches later
grand finals, bowser and ganondorf vs falco (skip to 8:30 for ganondorf):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfyahXZHgo
winners semis, falco and ganondorf vs fox (skip to 7:00 for ganondorf, falco match afterwards): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-caSVv360zk
round one winners, ganondorf vs marth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1aKsJXGpdE
more matches later
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Bowser tho
Glennwood
Smash Cadet
Your replies bring a tear to my eye. I love it. I think sticking with untechable stomp is a good idea, regardless of if is untechable or not it seems to work pretty ****ing good. Honestly there is plenty of stuff in theory that works and doesn't work but in practice is a lot different. In regards to the stomp, even if the get the frame perfect tech and avoid it, can the other player reliably do that every time? No.