Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

https://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal/v/72671855?t=16m59s I'm trying to figure out the proper timing for dash attack for combo extension. I'm guessing it has something to do by hitting it late.

I believe that is one reason. Angle changes from 115 to 110 when you get the late hit and you get a good deal less kb.

The other reason that worked is because that guy was in panic mode spamming DI to the right trying to escape. Had he DIed in any other quadrant that combo would not have been true.

e: nvm I see your comment about the strong hit being late. I was wondering why the Kb looked kind of funky there for a second, but just assumed it was weak.

Thinking about it again, it's probably the DI. Unless a delayed strong hit gets some new weird properties, I can't see what else it would be.

e2: Final thought I just had is that if you could control whether you got the reverse hit or the standard hit, you could use it as a mixup to cover DI between ~270 - 90 on the reverse and ~90 - 270 on the standard if you could make the read. Lotta hitstun at higher percents to get that fair off. And those odds are not too bad and have slight conditioning potential.

 

[Linguini]

Def been going ham in the gym lately...about a year ago I was 155 going to the gym everyday. Lost 15 pounds of muscle over the past couple months when I stopped. Getting it back, back up to benching 190

 

[-ACE-]

I think when I go back I'll just stick to dumbbells. More range of motion, less stress on shoulders, great on stabilizing muscles. Used to do the 100lb dumbbells on flat bench and 120's decline (set of 8). Cable crossing/fly's afterward is what really builds shape and definition.

For anyone looking to build power, go heavy. Sets of 3 and occasional 2 get you the big numbers quickly. If your max is 10lbs, better to do 3x5lbs, 3x6lbs, 3x7lbs, and 2-3x8lbs (with spot) than it is to do 5x6lbs, 5x7lbs, get tired. With the lower reps you tear your muscles harder and deeper on heavier weight, as you aren't fatigued until you hit the really heavy ones. I busted through long plateaus this way (I worked out religiously for 8 years).

But anyway, I feel like this is a weight lifting forum lol. Looking forward to versus this Sunday.

Thomas Tipman L Linguini you guys remember how to get there? Lol you should go. I can probably only make 2 more after this one.

 

[tm]

https://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal/v/72671855?t=16m59s I'm trying to figure out the proper timing for dash attack for combo extension. I'm guessing it has something to do by hitting it late.

HOLY...

 

[PseudoTurtle]

https://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal/v/72671855?t=16m59s I'm trying to figure out the proper timing for dash attack for combo extension. I'm guessing it has something to do by hitting it late.

Holy **** dude, that was insane. I think that could've combo'd into upsmash. That was ridiculous. Late hit would be weak hit though, right? Or do you mean late strong hit, to minimize cool down time and maximize knockback?

 

[gmBottles]

https://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal/v/72671855?t=16m59s I'm trying to figure out the proper timing for dash attack for combo extension. I'm guessing it has something to do by hitting it late.

Woah, that's awesome. How many uses does that have? I'd imagine that's more so something situational than something you can get a setup for.

And lol page 666 already gone rip

 

[Divinokage]

Holy **** dude, that was insane. I think that could've combo'd into upsmash. That was ridiculous. Late hit would be weak hit though, right? Or do you mean late strong hit, to minimize cool down time and maximize knockback?

Definitely late strong hit because you cant combo anything from the weak hit normally. I was also thinking of usmash but i wonder if he would have time to jump out. Also, i think everyone realizes that its almost impossible to DI because if that had happened to you, would you really think to DI away from Ganon's reverse dash attack at that moment? It was also the only move possible to extend that combo.

 

[tauKhan]

Definitely late strong hit because you cant combo anything from the weak hit normally. I was also thinking of usmash but i wonder if he would have time to jump out.

Yeah, the hit also did 14% (strong hitbox dmg), weak one only does 10%.

Also as a heads up to all, ikneedata.com/calculator is a very good resource to solve stuff like this now, you can even figure out the di the fox used and what could happen with different di's in a matter of seconds.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm a former sprinter, so I used to spend a lot of time in the gym. Then I tore cartilage around my hip flexor, which now prevents me from running or doing all the important lower body lifts.

 

[spider_sense]

Anybody been using the Tipman spike as a reset wakeup? Btw, oldie but goldie -->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZVCq6uGXyc Thomas Tipman

 

[Oldiz]

The uair jab reset is too laggy to be practical, stomp is just much better. They can almost always buffer a getup option after the uair.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

ACE wtf man dont leave. hmu dunno if im making it to versus but jason might stop by today. hell lets try to figure out how to get some matches online.

Thrippple threat!

 

[-ACE-]

ACE wtf man dont leave. hmu dunno if im making it to versus but jason might stop by today. hell lets try to figure out how to get some matches online.

Thrippple threat!

I don't have internet lol.

I'll be back to SFL at some point.

 

[Bwmat]

Yo kage, so you're confirmed for kings of Vancouver 3? Ganon dittos!

 

[Linguini]

Yo dayve I'll se you there tom. Need moar training for ceo.

Looked at my pool for CEO and macD looks like the only tough match for me. Looking forward to stomping fewls

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I lost to two Foxes at the tournament yesterday. My tech was actually pretty on point, there were maybe a few technical errors, and one crucial one for sure, but overall I didn't mess too many things up. Fox is just such a hard matchup for Ganon that I really gotta rethink my decision making in that matchup, and how to handle the most common Fox tactics. I know I can do better vs Fox. I can make my punishes better, I can make my aerials more efficient, I can be less predictable, and I can shut off space better with retreating aerials. I just need to do more studying and keep practicing.

Gonna study Kage and Linguini vids again for the Fox matchup. I need a refresher on how to play that matchup. At least in neutral and punishes. My edgeguarding is still pretty good.

 

[-ACE-]

Empty sh wL.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Empty sh wL.

True. It's very useful, I'm just having a hard time finding good times to use it and not overextend on my attack when I do it, nor make it obvious that I'm going to do it either. I'm gonna keep trying to apply it to my game though, as I haven't really been doing it for long enough to really know exactly when to use it.

Also L Linguini You have Awstintatious aka DAB in your pool, who is a pretty solid Sheik main from GA. Watch out for him, but I think you should be fine.

 

[-ACE-]

Waveland backwards. They love punishing aerial landing lag and when they go for it you can punish. And when they start expecting it you can exploit their reads/decision making. It keeps them guessing.

RedmanSSBM who won between redd and twitch last night? Saw sharkz beat milkman, good win for any IC main.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

waveland back is pretty damn good vs fox. If it's your standard fox player, they'll do what dave said and dash dance until they want to punish landing lag. wd / wl back can get you jabs, space you for weak hit nair (easy cc), and the occasional grab / dtilt.

Dash attack is also an underused move in the matchup. If they're dash dancing in fair range, dash attack will work wonders to eat up that space. Once they start shielding your dash attack, take that shield grab, and then start grabbing.

I actually learned quite a bit about the fox matchup playing friendlies with Rik at sns2. The midwest, namely Chicago, has limited talent in regards to fox players, it's basically only kels in the city. It was good to play vs someone who's punish game is good enough vs ganon to really keep me on my toes.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

RedmanSSBM who won between redd and twitch last night? Saw sharkz beat milkman, good win for any IC main.

I wasn't there to see it myself but Redd ended up beating Twitch in GFs 3-1. He used Marth to beat Cam when he was down 2-1 in Winner's Finals. Not sure about GFs, so I'll have to watch the VoD and see.

 

[Divinokage]

Wait.. if your dash attack gets shielded its a free punish for Fox. Did i miss something here?

 

[-ACE-]

Wait.. if your dash attack gets shielded its a free punish for Fox. Did i miss something here?

Pretty sure he meant once they start shielding, reading the dash attack, grab them.

 

[Divinokage]

Pretty sure he meant once they start shielding, reading the dash attack, grab them.

Running at them into grab hardly ever works. The fox will just continue to move before you can get a grab in then punish you for pressing a button there. The grab is normally setup from a CC or shield DI quite more reliably. Also being able to PS in order to prevent an approach.

 

[-ACE-]

Running at them into grab hardly ever works. The fox will just continue to move before you can get a grab in then punish you for pressing a button there. The grab is normally setup from a CC or shield DI quite more reliably. Also being able to PS in order to prevent an approach.

Mostly true, which is why dash attack is so good. They hardly ever shield lol. Honestly running into grab can work though, not a bad mixup after aerials, and even in neutral after you dash up to them, wd back, and immediately dash jc grab (which can grab whiffed grabs, certain whiffed attacks, and ppl stuck in shield). You can even approaching tomahawk at times if you know they're def expecting a fair.

I usually don't entertain the "don't knock it till you try it" mentality, but with grab, **** gets tempting due to the reward. Kage you of all people know it's all in how deep you are into your opponent's head.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

It was working for me vs Rik, and he's definitely no slouch. Idk. I kept dash attacking and he got used to it and would shield. I started grabbing instead and then he had to further adapt.

In my not so popular opinion, sacrificing one shield grab to get grabs of your own is well worth it in the fox matchup. If you know you're going to get shield grabbed, you just buffer the DI whichever way fox is facing and he won't be able to get any guaranteed follow ups.

 

[-ACE-]

PseudoTurtle if I know they like uthrow I'll DI behind depending on stage positioning and platform location, you go a little bit farther and force them to backdash.

 

[-ACE-]

Happy Father's Day Ganon's

Ain't no other kings in this melee thing, they siblings, nothing but our chilren, one fair they disappearin'

 

[Divinokage]

Mostly true, which is why dash attack is so good. They hardly ever shield lol. Honestly running into grab can work though, not a bad mixup after aerials, and even in neutral after you dash up to them, wd back, and immediately dash jc grab (which can grab whiffed grabs, certain whiffed attacks, and ppl stuck in shield). You can even approaching tomahawk at times if you know they're def expecting a fair.

I usually don't entertain the "don't knock it till you try it" mentality, but with grab, **** gets tempting due to the reward. Kage you of all people know it's all in how deep you are into your opponent's head.

When I play someone that's super good vs Ganon those things about being in the player's head becomes much harder especially if it's a Fox. If you space an aerial into running grab it's still kinda slow, there's always plenty of time for Fox to stop the opportunity to do that mix up. If anything the matchup is more determined by your punish game as Ganon can't keep up the neutral vs Fox. That's the answer i've got after playing the best Foxes vs Ganon. Every opportunity = Fox needs to die no matter what, giving him a 2nd chance is really bad.

Edit: Ok so Im rechecking my sets from Toronto this weekend and the way I sometimes get my grabs after a combo string if they are still able to move around I think like for example Downthrow to jab at low %. I saw that my pattern from there is usually an aerial so its possible to get a grab instead if they stay in shield longer. I'm also seeing how much mix-ups you actually need in order to beat a good Fox, it's insanity. One thing you can't really do vs Fox is full hopping, it's actually ass even with DJs as mix up since Ganon's horizontal movement doesnt go anywhere, Fox can just run away and punish you running back in. lol

 

[-ACE-]

I mean, I know the best way to get grabs are the best, lol. But if you're ruling out stuff before you plug your controller in you're limiting yourself.

 

[Diosama]

off topic for the moment but very nifty tip vs falcon/characters who can hit you when you're underneath platforms

just crouch

why risk a trade when you can avoid it then get a guaranteed up air -> possibly send them off stage

 

[Divinokage]

I mean, I know the best way to get grabs are the best, lol. But if you're ruling out stuff before you plug your controller in you're limiting yourself.

What are you talking about? I went through the possible options and they suck. lol

 

[-ACE-]

What are you talking about? I went through the possible options and they suck. lol

Keep an open mind my dude. Unless you think you're perfect vs fox, then by all means keep trucking.

 

[Divinokage]

Keep an open mind my dude. Unless you think you're perfect vs fox, then by all means keep trucking.

Smh... I definitely don't think I'm perfect, what is this.. 2007!? Fox vs Ganon is 50-50? lol

Edit: I'm aware I sound negative in my post, it's just really hard to choose the right option at the right time every time.

 

[Swagic]

Man... I wish Fox-Ganon was 50-50... I need to stop trying to force approaches in that matchup.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Speaking of dash attack, I was actually trying out multiple dash attacks on Falco and Fox on a few occasions at low percent and it actually proved to be pretty useful. It was pretty fun and silly to be able to go back and forth with dash attacks and just keep hitting my opponent lol. This is especially fun at low percents where the first dash attack doesn't knock them down, so they get a little jaded when they first get hit, then they get knocked down by the second one, not expecting a tech, and then a third one comes their way after not teching the second one.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

PseudoTurtle if I know they like uthrow I'll DI behind depending on stage positioning and platform location, you go a little bit farther and force them to backdash.

I think they're still guaranteed a back air though, depending on %. Not quite sure though. I do know if you DI in front they are only guaranteed a first hit of fair, which is basically useless.

Based on platform location etc though, DI behind could prove useful, especially if you're able to tech. I just hate teching and getting up smashed lol

 

[-ACE-]

I'll take a bair almost any day, I'm worried about uair for the most part

 

[RedmanSSBM]

A note on dairing at the ledge: If your dair lands on your opponent below the ledge, there is a good chance for them to SDI in and tech. However, if you aim the dair to hit the opponent slightly above the ledge and far enough over, no amount of SDI will help them tech the ledge, and they are likely to miss their meteor cancel.

Observe here how Bizzarroflame dairs Lucky twice below the ledge, which he is able to tech, but the third dair is slightly above the ledge, not allowing Lucky for a chance to tech it and he dies for it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I think learning punishes on oos options vs fox is important. For example, you dash at fox as if you will dash attack. They shield for a second and then decide you will grab because you have done the mixup between dash attack and grab at least once already. So they do something agro oos, like Nair. Dash back for a second to space around and then dash attack. Or maybe they decide to dodge your grab. The slight dash back will also cover that if you time it. And you can do other cool things if you read it, at a higher risk though.