Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

LOL linguini beasted me with fox yesterday despite it not being so bad stock-wise. Edged out the first Ganon ditto after that, then lost game 3. Fox is tough, every Fox is different. A good guide to neutral in that matchup would be long af. Oos options have to be fp because of his height. We just went yoshi's every match too, no chance of faking out Fox really.

 

[Glennwood]

Man... I wish Fox-Ganon was 50-50... I need to stop trying to force approaches in that matchup.

That's what my downfall vs fox is. I approach and if I get read I lose neutral. Sure being aggressive can sometimes get me the first stock or even the first two but then my opponent adapts and starts baiting me, I really need to work on my mental game and punish game more than anything.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Something I'm realizing that I've been doing too much of when I play vs most Foxes is not knowing when to retreat and wavedash away and just playing defensively. I'm too often trying to wavedash towards Fox and close the gap, where a lot of my moves just end up getting stuffed in the end. Sure the wavedash forward is a good idea to use, but only in moderation I feel. I feel like a really powerful and useful maneuver in neutral would be to dash forward to bait the Fox to come to you, then dash back, wavedash away, and turn into and ftilt, dash attack, grab, etc. I feel like perfect wavedash away is pretty underused and I'm pretty confident that it actually gets you out of the way of SH nair and even FH nair approaches.

I also can't stress enough how useful SH instant upair is vs Fox, even out of shield it's pretty damn good. I just gotta remember for myself to play more Defensively vs Fox and not always try to attack him. Having space on stage is pretty important, so Yoshi's Story makes this actually a bit more difficult, but it's still pretty doable on that stage. FoD too.

 

[-ACE-]

I never wd toward fox to close gaps unless I know FOR A FACT it isn't punishable. If it's not punishable it opens up new options out of dash instead of run. But in general it'll get you bodied.

 

[Divinokage]

What option would you do uair oos against for a true punish? Bair oos works vs usmash, up-b oos vs utilt also works. I cant see anything else.

 

[tauKhan]

Observe here how Bizzarroflame dairs Lucky twice below the ledge, which he is able to tech, but the third dair is slightly above the ledge, not allowing Lucky for a chance to tech it and he dies for it.

I believe that was just a tech flub from Lucky. If the stomp hits so that the sdi attempt doesn't hit the wall, then fox will end up on stage from the sdi and can ground tech. If it hits so that wall is in the way of the sdi, then it can be teched with that sdi. There's no scenario in between. In any case the stomp was certainly techable with just using TDI towards the wall.

I think hitting the stomp low is better, because then the fox will be forced to use upb low again. When you hit him close to ledge height, wall tech jump side b's is possible.

 

[-ACE-]

What option would you do uair oos against for a true punish? Bair oos works vs usmash, up-b oos vs utilt also works. I cant see anything else.

Fp uair oos isn't bad when they space an aerial just outside of shieldgrab range. You can also do it in neutral to beat/trade with nair approach by using shield briefly as a bait.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I believe that was just a tech flub from Lucky. If the stomp hits so that the sdi attempt doesn't hit the wall, then fox will end up on stage from the sdi and can ground tech. If it hits so that wall is in the way of the sdi, then it can be teched with that sdi. There's no scenario in between. In any case the stomp was certainly techable with just using TDI towards the wall.

I think hitting the stomp low is better, because then the fox will be forced to use upb low again. When you hit him close to ledge height, wall tech jump side b's is possible.

It could have also been that Lucky just didn't SDI any of the dairs and just DIed the first two dairs close enough to the stage to actually be able to tech them. You do have a point though, but I know for sure that if the dair is far enough away from the ledge where one SDI input will not be enough, then I think that will get someone every time. There is probably a big enough window to do two SDI inputs, but it's not easy, nor have I really seen it done yet.

I'm pretty sure even if you were to hit a low dair at the ledge on Fox, he could still ledge-jump tech side-b back onto the stage before Ganon is done l-canceling, or at least to where Ganon has to CC or shield the side-b. Either way, Fox is probably still able to get back on stage.

If Fox up-b's again after you hit a low dair at the edge, anything you could hit him with before he launches from up-b that isn't dair, he can still tech that and get back on stage. Likely the best course of action if you encounter this scenario is to grab the ledge immediately, normal get-up on the stage to cover the Fox doing a tight angle to sweetspot the ledge, and if he goes straight up instead, I'm pretty sure you can react to him going straight up and be able to hit him back off with an upair.

Then again, the Fox could just dip lower and make it harder for Ganon to react. So many things can happen.

 

[Divinokage]

Fp uair oos isn't bad when they space an aerial just outside of shieldgrab range. You can also do it in neutral to beat/trade with nair approach by using shield briefly as a bait.

Wait but why would they space an aerial and not hit your shield? Or why would they hit your shield really high like that in the first place?

 

[Bwmat]

Fox has too many options, even in that situation, I don't think you can cover them all.

 

[Swagic]

I remember somewhere in the history of this forum someone posted a gif of a Falcon getting stomped by Ganon and he SDI'd roughly halfway across FD

 

[-ACE-]

Wait but why would they space an aerial and not hit your shield? Or why would they hit your shield really high like that in the first place?

Fox can hit Ganons shield and be out of shieldgrab range, lol. Better to whiff a uair than a grab usually too.

 

[Divinokage]

Fox can hit Ganons shield and be out of shieldgrab range, lol. Better to whiff a uair than a grab usually too.

So you're saying you can uair oos in that range as he lands to punish is next aerial option before it comes out?

 

[-ACE-]

So you're saying you can uair oos in that range as he lands to punish is next aerial option before it comes out?

In some situations, sure. Not every fox approach is perfectly spaced and late as possible.

 

[Waldoring]

I remember somewhere in the history of this forum someone posted a gif of a Falcon getting stomped by Ganon and he SDI'd roughly halfway across FD

Frame perfect (TAS-only, requires resetting analog stick to neutral every other frame and full directional on the others) can do some silly stuff.
Not the same one, but the same idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ8aZ8U8Ia4

 

[Swagic]

Well, yeah, but the point was in theory it's possible

 

[Divinokage]

In some situations, sure. Not every fox approach is perfectly spaced and late as possible.

Ugh... I wouldn't count on that in my experience, every whiff is too costly.

https://www.twitch.tv/affinityplay/v/73206663?t=02h10m37s How about CC into Nair to get a trade? I'm not trying to be conceited, I'm trying to be as open as possible. lol

 

[-ACE-]

I wouldn't count on that in my experience, every whiff is too costly

I mean, all I said was it wasn't BAD. You can dj after a sh uair, and if you're shined midair you can ASDI grab waveshine. I'll let you know if I think something is really good. I'll say "hey guys, this is really good" lol.

 

[tm]

What option would you do uair oos against for a true punish? Bair oos works vs usmash, up-b oos vs utilt also works. I cant see anything else.

upB shouldn't actually work on utilt just fyi. Only shieldgrab, and you basically have to be inside him for that to hit due to the shield pushback. Of course the upB and even stomp OoS will work sometimes depending on what they do / how slow they are

 

[-ACE-]

Frame perfect (TAS-only, requires resetting analog stick to neutral every other frame and full directional on the others) can do some silly stuff.
Not the same one, but the same idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ8aZ8U8Ia4

The wiggle technique works better, you don't have to return to neutral to get multiple SDI inputs, but it's humanly impractical virtually all the time (awkwardness and necessary reaction time), not to mention getting more than 3 inputs is probably humanly impossible.

 

[Divinokage]

upB shouldn't actually work on utilt just fyi. Only shieldgrab, and you basically have to be inside him for that to hit due to the shield pushback. Of course the upB and even stomp OoS will work sometimes depending on what they do / how slow they are

Ya it does, it's a true punish. You can block utilt into up-b OOS and it's guaranteed. Stomp OOS is not guaranteed, he can punish you before dair comes out.

 

[Bwmat]

Does utilt->shine beat it? That's happened to me before, but maybe I was just slow

 

[Swagic]

Fox's utilt is -11 on shield, up-b grab box comes out frame 13. Utilt-shine will beat it, but the fox only has like 2 frames to play with.

So... On paper? No, it shouldn't be a true punish. In practice? It'll take a hint of luck for it to fail (or just mashing down-b, which I'm pretty sure some fox players just do...)

 

[tm]

Ya it does, it's a true punish. You can block utilt into up-b OOS and it's guaranteed. Stomp OOS is not guaranteed, he can punish you before dair comes out.

No, it's not. Both fox and falco can buffer spotdodge (but not roll) to escape.
It's still a good option because it beats literally everything other than spotdodge, but it's absolutely not guaranteed.
EDIT: yeah I guess frame perfect shine also avoids it. lol.

Spoiler: EXPLANATION

If fox hits with the very inside, he still has time to buffer shield->spotdodge by 2 frames. If he times the spotdodge (and doesn't shield first), he has a 3 frame window.

His utilt is -10 on shield. Frame-perfect upB OoS hits on frame 14. Spot dodge dodges on frame 2. Make it 3 if you shield first and buffer the spotdodge. 14 - 10 - 3 = 1.
And 0 would mean he is intangible as the hitbox comes out.

My source is testing in debug, I'm just using math to support my conclusion.

Falco has 1 less frame of leniency than fox (meaning if he buffers spotdodge, he will escape with no frame leniency). This is because his utilt does less shield stun than fox (because it does less damage, at least for that hitbox)

This is the hitbox I'm referring to, the one which is far and away the most likely to hit your shield:

 

[-ACE-]

tm there's no way Kage is wrong. You need need to re-evaluate your findings.

 

[Swagic]

Now, if you condition them not to spot dodge (ie by punishing shieldstun before they can or giving them a chance and punishing it), that could eliminate the buffered spot dodge miss. Still need to beware a mashed/frame perfect shine, though.

Oh, and according to KirbyKaze's shield advantage guide (he specifically uses Fox's utilt as an example), it's-11.

So now question time- Fox is invincible frame 2 of his spot dodge. 11+2=invincible on frame 13 after shield contact. But... That assumes zero lag for input. Isn't there a 1-frame input window (as in takes a frame for input to be read)? If so, it turns to 11+1(input)+2(dodge)=invincible on frame 14, frame after grab box.

For the curious, Falco is at -12 on shield (by KK's formula), meaning he can only shine period and (if there is no input barrier) if it's frame perfect. So DEFINITELY go for it against Falco, they like that utilt.

Hooray theorycrafting.

 

[Divinokage]

No, it's not. Both fox and falco can buffer spotdodge (but not roll) to escape.
It's still a good option because it beats literally everything other than spotdodge, but it's absolutely not guaranteed.
EDIT: yeah I guess frame perfect shine also avoids it. lol.

I definitely read somewhere that it is guaranteed, I wasn't the one that said it.

 

[Swagic]

I think you might need to study your frame data again, Total frames from Fox utilt is 24 frames and the first frame of utilt hits on frame 5 which gives 14 frames of hitlag. The fox will still be in lag if you up-B within 6 frames of the shield stun as up-B OOS is 13 frame of start up. It's not that complicated!

Shield stun is calculated differently than hitlag. The formula is roughly (damage+4.5)/2.5. For Fox's (12% at strongest point), that translates to roughly 16.5/2.5, or roughly 6.5 frames of shield stun (we'll round up to 7). So roughly 7 frames stun, hits on frame 5, 23 frame move (IASA). 12 frames out from the 23 frame move, you're free 11 frames earlier, hence the -11 on shield.

So that -11 is based on fresh, hard hit utilt interrupted first possible frame.

KK's post on it- http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

 

[Divinokage]

Shield stun is calculated differently than hitlag. The formula is roughly (damage+4.5)/2.5. For Fox's (12% at strongest point), that translates to roughly 16.5/2.5, or roughly 6.5 frames of shield stun (we'll round up to 7). So roughly 7 frames stun, hits on frame 5, 23 frame move (IASA). 12 frames out from the 23 frame move, you're free 11 frames earlier, hence the -11 on shield.

So that -11 is based on fresh, hard hit utilt interrupted first possible frame.

KK's post on it- http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

That means it could very well be guaranteed if you also account for Fox's spot dodge. The up-tilt is actually 24 frames, are you saying Fox's can consistently get a 1 frame spot dodge IASA frame? That's pretty ridiculous. It would mean normally it's -12 on shield if they didnt somehow buffer a spotdodge. But up-B would get them before the spot dodge is active. If they also pressed any other button they are caught 100%, I'd say it's well worth the very little risk. Shine wouldn't even work because they wouldnt even be in range for it to beat up-B straight up, it'll whiff.

 

[-ACE-]

Kage weren't you just telling me missing a sh uair was a huge risk? Wouldn't you say missing an up-b is a bigger one?

 

[tauKhan]

Shield stun is calculated differently than hitlag. The formula is roughly (damage+4.5)/2.5. For Fox's (12% at strongest point), that translates to roughly 16.5/2.5, or roughly 6.5 frames of shield stun (we'll round up to 7). So roughly 7 frames stun, hits on frame 5, 23 frame move (IASA). 12 frames out from the 23 frame move, you're free 11 frames earlier, hence the -11 on shield.

The accurate formula for shield stun with full shield is floor{ (floor[Damage] * 0,45 ) + 2) }. Except when you feed 20 dmg (there are some higher dmg exceptions too, but they're probably never relevant in a match) into the formula, true stun is 1 less than given by the formula due to the way the game calculates animation speed. Complete formula if you want to account for different analog levels can be found here. Edit: Fixed the link to point to the correct post.

So now question time- Fox is invincible frame 2 of his spot dodge. 11+2=invincible on frame 13 after shield contact. But... That assumes zero lag for input. Isn't there a 1-frame input window (as in takes a frame for input to be read)? If so, it turns to 11+1(input)+2(dodge)=invincible on frame 14, frame after grab box.

You shouldn't account for input lag like that. For example in this case with fox utilt, it's frame 23 IASA. That means fox can act on the 23rd frame of utilt according to the inputs polled for that frame, not that fox responds to inputs after 23rd frame. Since fox can act on frame 23 of utilt, and ganon can act on frame 13 of the utilt, it's -10 on shield.

That means it could very well be guaranteed if you also account for Fox's spot dodge. The up-tilt is actually 24 frames, are you saying Fox's can consistently get a 1 frame spot dodge IASA frame? That's pretty ridiculous.

Don't forget that smash input down for spot dodge is active for 4 frames, so the fox can input L/R + down anywhere between frames 20 - 25 to dodge the upb. Spot dodging wouldn't be hard. That said I don't think utilt -> spot dodge is common sequence at all, and I wouldn't worry about it until I see it.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage weren't you just telling me missing a sh uair was a huge risk? Wouldn't you say missing an up-b is a bigger one?

Ya but the numbers dont add up. You couldnt uair oos as Fox would be able to move before the uair hits. If you are stuck on your shield backwards thats where its logical to do up-b oos the other way. You're not supposed to miss this opportunity. If Fox is somehow going to do u tilt to spotdodge which should be an even bigger risk for him then you can ledge cancel on the platforms. However i usually always get it when i do use it which is rare in the first place.

Also why is there conflicting ideas on how to read the frame data? Its not that complicated. A move being active for 4 frames doesnt mean you can input it earlier, it would mean its active after the start up. You still need to let the move finish.

 

[Swagic]

big frame data explanation/clarification

Thanks for clarifying the input question, much appreciated.

Divinokage my point was to show that getting off a spot dodge would be difficult.

I'm gonna call back to... Someone's work on the cg and reaction times here (sorry... I forget who did that). Something about how the cg was beyond human reaction time for multiple options. So we've got a 12 frame startup, meaning ~200ms to react, well beyond the human range for multiple option reactions. Great, works as a mixup.

Now, when they start looking for it, it's punishable. So... Conclusion?

Go for it. But don't spam it. But always do it to Falco when he utilts your shield.

 

[tm]

Thanks T tauKhan lol. I don't preach anything that I haven't tested myself in game, so if people don't believe me after my justification i'll just drop it.

In other news, CEO this weekend.
My highest placing at a Big House is 65th... so that means that if I make top 64 then MI is better vs ganon than FL, right?

 

[-ACE-]

Thanks T tauKhan lol. I don't preach anything that I haven't tested myself in game, so if people don't believe me after my justification i'll just drop it.

In other news, CEO this weekend.
My highest placing at a Big House is 65th... so that means that if I make top 64 then MI is better vs ganon than FL, right?

I won't be there, I would've had them rig the bracket.



Who's in your pool?

 

[tm]

As of now

 

[Divinokage]

Thanks T tauKhan lol. I don't preach anything that I haven't tested myself in game, so if people don't believe me after my justification i'll just drop it.

In other news, CEO this weekend.
My highest placing at a Big House is 65th... so that means that if I make top 64 then MI is better vs ganon than FL, right?

Since when it was anything about beliefs.. cmon...!!!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

harriet, s2j, and owl will be tough for you tm. good luck.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Who is Owl?

 

[-ACE-]

He's got monkey too. Honestly not bad vs Ganon. Marth player. Lost one tourney set to him before. He's taken linguini to last stock game 3 before.