Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

do you guys think that grinding on the fox matchup like crazy is worth it? will it even matter in the end?

 

[-ACE-]

Definitely worth it.... wtf?

PS not entering tonight's tournament. Not paying $20 to play melee when I know I'll have to forfeit due to leaving early.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

you could get really good against Fox and hope it works out, get good against Fox on specific stages and have a secondary, or have a secondary for the mu

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Just watched some of linguini's matches from VS tonight. Those grabs out of shine though! I had no idea that worked. Brilliant.

 

[Bwmat]

today I forsoke ganon to play mainly falcon and a bit of fox (except in pools which are free).

felt good(falcon is so funnn), got second.

why must ganon be bad, I want to win with him.

 

[TheMentaculus]

Alright guys, every one knows the 11th commandment "Thou shalt not double laser from the ledge" (as Falco), but honestly what do you guys do to combat it? The only time I am ever able to punish is if I am already on the side plat and drop through with Bair with good timing. Even then if I do it too early I just get lasered into whatever the hell they want. If you're grounded are you able to jab in between the lasers? I hardly ever seem to be close enough to the ledge to hit with jab even if I tried. I suppose the situation that keeps getting me is when I get a good hit (Fair/Bair), they get knocked offstage, they are able to DJ to ledge while I'm still running there, and then they double laser me and do whatever they want. Last night it got to the point where I just jumping up to the side plat to avoid the double lasers (even though I was still too far away and facing the wrong way to fall through Bair), and then they just waveland on instead of double lasering. Can you F-tilt in between lasers? I don't think you can, but honestly guys wut do?

 

[-ACE-]

CC jab between the lasers is best

Fh, dj dair his head near the peak of his dj and follow up isn't bad

You can situationally side-b and hit him, and it's even possible to bair through the lasers depending on spacing. Crazy but bair shrinks Ganons hurtbox and makes it possible.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Is cc grab legit to combat double lasers

 

[-ACE-]

Nah I think jab barely makes it coming out on frame 3

Grab is great but in this case it would give him his jump back. Jab is king.

 

[tauKhan]

Is cc grab legit to combat double lasers

Yeah, you can easily cc grab, or shield grab between the lasers (same stun on both). Sometimes the second laser hits you during your grab, in which case the falco gets grab spiked and you get an easy edgeguard.

Though eating their 2nd jump with a cc jab as @ -ACE- suggests sounds like the best plan to me.

 

[-ACE-]

I would love to see a video of a Ganon shield grabbing between lhdl.

Also, @ Эикельманн [РУС] a Ganon mains natural response to fox would lead him to Marth imo, if you had to pick up a secondary. Defense and zoning will come somewhat naturally from playing Ganon, just gotta learn marth's myriad of punish options (new muscle memory). That and you'd want to practice marth vs sheik lol, a doable matchup but you have to be familiar with it. I maintain that marth beats puff also which helps Ganon a lot. DD grab and fair = ez$ lol

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I would love to see a video of a Ganon shield grabbing between lhdl.

Also, @ Эикельманн [РУС] a Ganon mains natural response to fox would lead him to Marth imo, if you had to pick up a secondary. Defense and zoning will come somewhat naturally from playing Ganon, just gotta learn marth's myriad of punish options (new muscle memory). That and you'd want to practice marth vs sheik lol, a doable matchup but you have to be familiar with it. I maintain that marth beats puff also which helps Ganon a lot. DD grab and fair = ez$ lol

it makes my stomach curdle to even consider or contemplate using another character.

 

[-ACE-]

it makes my stomach curdle to even consider or contemplate using another character.

You have secondaries that almost rival your main lol. But I hear you.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I just don't believe shield grab is legit against double lasers. Someone show me this or something

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

GYF :D Bruh ayyyyy

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Wait what where the **** are the Linguini videos? I checked out VSGC and it's not in the past broadcast. It's before that last broadcast but the one from yesterday was only 3 hours?? Ah man I wanted to see Emilio be rusty kick some @ss!

 

[-ACE-]

I just don't believe shield grab is legit against double lasers. Someone show me this or something

It's not going to work vs good falcos, forget it lol

@ RedmanSSBM I got the latest guini vids, I accept PayPal.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I just beat the good doctor! With GANON

And took a convincing game off ORLY. Not as epic as tm, but fuuuuuucking close set. I'm getting there.

 

[tm]

Can anybody link me the magus post which lists ganondorf's frame advantage after dthrow against every character? Can't seem to find it, and I'm trying to grind my grab punishes vs floaties.

 

[tauKhan]

I just don't believe shield grab is legit against double lasers. Someone show me this or something

Yet you suggest cc grab which is equally slow .

Marth grabbing ldhl by @Kadano

Same framedata for grabs, and I'm pretty sure if you position yourself correctly the smaller grab range doesn't matter. Analyzing the vid it seems like a 4 frame window for the grab, though my calculations suggest it would be 3, I don't know where the extra frame comes.

Also tried this myself with ganondorf, it's very easy to get the grab with once you realize how little shieldstun laser does. The grab spike is frame perfect though.

It's not going to work vs good falcos, forget it lol

I agree in a sense, since falcos shouldn't really go for lhdl if ganon is close enough to the ledge to punish. But if they do, it's easy to grab.

CC jab is probably the best punish, but shield grab has the advantage that you can dash into it and you aren't vulnerable to ledge hop aerials.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I didn't suggest it was legit, I asked if it was legit.

 

[tauKhan]

Oh true, sorry about that . Anyway that works as well, a bit harder to set up tho.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah. I think I'm just going to stick with cc jab for the most part unless I have a read that cc/shield grab will work. But what happens when Falco ledgehop dairs? Do I have enough time to react out of a crouch with a jab to either trade or beat out the dair? Or what if Falco invincible waveshines from the ledge? If I get into position to cover double lasers, suddenly I feel unsafe from these kind of options. But if I get far away enough to cover these options, I'm in store for double lasers. >.< **** falco how am I supposed to deal with this?

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah. I think I'm just going to stick with cc jab for the most part unless I have a read that cc/shield grab will work. But what happens when Falco ledgehop dairs? Do I have enough time to react out of a crouch with a jab to either trade or beat out the dair? Or what if Falco invincible waveshines from the ledge?

CC jab is the one where you need more of a read for, since it takes time for you to get near ledge in crouch. And ledgehop dair/ other options are why I think shield grab might be better. You can't beat/trade with the dair since they can get the hit while still invulnerable.

 

[-ACE-]

No offense taukhan but studying kadano's posts and diagrams will get you close to nowhere when it comes to understanding Ganons best options. Sadly, there is little substitute for playing the game competitively for 10+ years.

I hope some newcomer doesn't try shieldgrabbing lhdh for too long. People normally switch away from Ganon after being bodied repeatedly.

Let me save you some time. Any option that requires frame perfect execution, and IS NOT OPTIMAL, forget about it. Ez$

 

[tauKhan]

If it was hard or even frame perfect, I wouldn't advice to do it. But it's easy 4 frames window, and I tested it in practice as well. Maybe you should actually try it before shooting it down. The point is that while grab gets smaller punish, you don't have to be as near ledge with cc jab attempts beforehand, and you don't expose yourself to ledgehop dair.

On another note, I have played this game since 2003, and competitively since 2006 as if that mattered

 

[-ACE-]

The CC jab is easy as **** to setup. You should never be so far away from Falco that you can't properly pressure him at the ledge. The advice I give will never include giving up free KO's.

 

[tauKhan]

Fair enough if that's true. I just was under the impression that you lose to ledge hop dair if you try to cc jab.

 

[-ACE-]

You do lose, or trade, and he usually lives. You can react if you don't see the first laser. wd back and retreating fair still work when you're positioned to cc jab, which is just outside of where a rising ledgehop dair would hit you.

 

[Coastward]

Can anybody link me the magus post which lists ganondorf's frame advantage after dthrow against every character? Can't seem to find it, and I'm trying to grind my grab punishes vs floaties.

i have it written down in my notebook, let me get a picture real quick.

 

[Coastward]

@ tm nevermind, just gonna write it down.

Bowser = 47
Donkey Kong = 46
Ganondorf = 44
Link = 42
Marth = 35
Ness = 38
Pichu = 23
Pikachu = 32
Sheik = 37
Yoshi = 44
Young Link = 35
Game and Watch = 24
Roy = 35
Fox = 31
Falco = 32

missing a few for some reason but i hope that helps

 

[tauKhan]

For anyone other wondering, those figures are the first actionable frames for ganondorf after dthrow on various characters, not actual frame advantages.

 

[-ACE-]

For anyone other wondering, those figures are the first actionable frames for ganondorf after dthrow on various characters, not actual frame advantages.

Yeah, straight from magus's thread. It matters very little to me, about the same as seeing a list of all chars from heaviest to lightest in order.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

The only thing that matters is what works

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So I gotta go back to talking about pivots. I've finally fully mastered pivoting on both sides. It's deeply rooted in my muscle memory at this point. Dash dance pivots are easy now. The problem is I still can't do motherfvcking ftilts out of pivot yet. That would make dash pivots SO much more useful. I keep running into situations where I'll successfully bait someone into approaching my dash and I'll pivot jab, but the jab range will be too short. In most of these situations, ftilt definitely would've hit and I'm not even touched when my jab whiffs, which is still ok I guess. Pivot ftilt would be extremely helpful for me. But...I just can't fvucking do it. It's the hardest tech I've ever tried. Bizz said in his guide that you can't flick it all the way. But when I don't flick my control stick, I'm too slow to even pivot.

 

[-ACE-]

Input A a frame or 2 later and make sure the stick is tilted enough. Good **** man.

Btw bizz is wrong, you certainly can. Maybe he has a **** controller LOL

 

[tm]

@ tm nevermind, just gonna write it down.

Bowser = 47
Donkey Kong = 46
Ganondorf = 44
Link = 42
Marth = 35
Ness = 38
Pichu = 23
Pikachu = 32
Sheik = 37
Yoshi = 44
Young Link = 35
Game and Watch = 24
Roy = 35
Fox = 31
Falco = 32

missing a few for some reason but i hope that helps

Not what I meant, sadly. There's a post that lists frame advantage after dthrow based on the opponent's character AND percent. I think he even included a frame window for hitting with certain aerials (like there's a 2 frame window for fairing peach after dthrow at x percent, etc)

 

[-ACE-]

Against Peach. The numbers are before the throw damage and are with the throw doing the full 7%. If it's stale and does 6% add 1 to the ranges, etc. This assumes perfect timing on both players actions.

D-Throw Advantage vs Peach (18 Lag; +2 Adv Differential):
0-8 .... +14
9-19 ... +15
20-30 .. +16
31-41 .. +17
42-52 .. +18
53-63 .. +19
64-74 .. +20
75-85 .. +21
86-96 .. +22
97-107 . +23
...


F-Air: No Turn
31-41 . Trade with N-Air
42-52 . Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
53-63 . Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
64+ ... True Combo

F-Air: Lagless Turnaround to Dash
53-63 . Trade with N-Air
64-74 . Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
75-85 . Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
86+ ... True Combo

B-Air: Behind DI
N/A ... Trade with N-Air
0-8 ... Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
9-19 .. Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
20+ ... True Combo

U-Air: No Turn at 0%
True Combo ..... 2 Frame Window for Error
Beats N-Air .... 4 Frame Window for Error
Trade w/ N-Air . 5 Frame Window for Error

U-Air: Lagless Turnaround to Dash at 0%
True Combo ..... 0 Frame Window for Error
Beats N-Air .... 2 Frame Window for Error
Trade w/ N-Air . 3 Frame Window for Error

On the 0% u-airs you might need to jump backwards into the u-air on no DI/slight behind DI.

You also have to consider reaction time, as well as the number of frames into their knockback that would allow their DI to be correctly identified for the situation. With Peach, there's 18 frames of knockback that occur before Ganon can act. To be able to act on the very 1st frame you can off the throw where DI sets up for separate actions to be done on frame 1 (such as DI behind needing you to dash behind into something instead), and if the DI were able to be identified starting from the 6th frame of KB, you'd need a choice-based reaction time of 12 frames or less in this situation, which is extremely fast (not to be confused with raw reaction time where 12 frames is simply 'above average').


You can figure out the d-throw advantage on any character with this...

D-Throw Advantage vs Mario (20 Lag; +0 Adv Differential):
0-8 .... +12
9-19 ... +13
20-30 .. +14
31-41 .. +15
42-52 .. +16
53-63 .. +17
64-74 .. +18
75-85 .. +19
86-96 .. +20
97-107 . +21
...

To find out the advantage ranges with the d-throw on any character you want, use the above list for Mario (20 lag; +0 Adv Differential), and add/subtract from the advantage using the list below.

D-Throw Lag (NTSC):
1.17 - Bowser ....................... 23 (-3)
1.14 - Donkey Kong .................. 23 (-3)
1.10 - Samus ........................ 23 (-3)
1.09 - Ganondorf .................... 22 (-2)
1.08 - Yoshi ........................ 22 (-2)
1.04 - Captain Falcon / Link ........ 21 (-1)
1.00 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario ..... 20 (+0)
0.94 - Ness ......................... 19 (+1)
0.90 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda ........ 18 (+2)
0.88 - Ice Climbers ................. 18 (+2)
0.87 - Marth ........................ 17 (+3)
0.85 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link .... 18 (+2)
0.80 - Falco / Pikachu .............. 16 (+4)
0.75 - Fox .......................... 15 (+5)
0.70 - Kirby ........................ 15 (+5)
0.60 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch . 12 (+8)
0.55 - Pichu ........................ 12 (+8)

 

[tm]

yessssssssssssssssssss

 

[tauKhan]

What an amazing post. Port priority probably alters the advantage by 1 frame, but I don't know from which perspective these numbers are derived. (@Stratocaster ?)