Duel
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 167
I feel like you have practiced advanced stuff (Moonwalking) before you practiced basic things (Spacing), common knowledge of the game, etc.
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Every time you get hit by a marth fair, you failed at zoning. The key is to bair, defensive uair, or delayed side-b his approach. Bair beats fair straight up when fully spaced, uair beats it/trades (and uair oos bodies early sh fair like Tipman said), and side-b is awesome when you hit them while airborne just after their aerial hitbox is over. IF you DO get hit by a fair, SDI away and roll the stick to up and away, or stay with away (ASDI). Don't go down and away unless you can get ledge (which is great), too easy for marth to edgeguard you otherwise.
In general, not nearly enough uair, ONE GRAB, more side-b (but learn it or else it's too risky!), more marth killer for edgeguarding (even if only used as a fake out). Grab him out of bad approaches AND ledgedash.
Neutral is very important. Ganon is the only one that can compete with marth's range, but you have to know how to go about it. Try not to get hit. Marth is kinda easy to 0-death once you have your punish game on lock.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Speaking of marth punish game, I got some sick 0-deaths through untechable stomps on marths in tournament recently.
Easy setup: you dthrow at 32-38%, they DI full behind, immediately jump back and stomp. Should be untechable, then fair or plat techchase.
Can sometime test this to confirm? It seems like 32% can work even with partial away DI.
EDIT: well, although this works, it seems to be very situational due to marth's tumble animation...... :/
Double edit: here's what I mean.
http://youtu.be/KmN6uFDLwNA
Easy setup: you dthrow at 32-38%, they DI full behind, immediately jump back and stomp. Should be untechable, then fair or plat techchase.
Can sometime test this to confirm? It seems like 32% can work even with partial away DI.
EDIT: well, although this works, it seems to be very situational due to marth's tumble animation...... :/
Double edit: here's what I mean.
http://youtu.be/KmN6uFDLwNA
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PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
@-FEMTO- seems like you need to work a little bit more on the basics. Keeping center vs marth can be tricky, but it's a necessity in the matchup because ganon doesn't have much in the way of getting out of the corner vs marth and the same goes for marth when he's stuck in a corner.
As tempting as it can be to rush in vs marth when he's outside center stage, work on your patience. Let him come to you and then punish. As for when you're in the corner, like I said, regaining center can be tricky, but a little trick I like to do is regrab the ledge and either waveland in --> buffer roll or ledge hop --> down-b. The second one sounds silly and you have to use it wisely, but it works GREAT against marths who like to repeatedly dtilt you on the edge and then wavedash back when you come up and keep dtilting... LOL, yea, there are marths that actually think this is good ledge pressure.
As for your footsies / neutral, pay attention to what your opponent is doing. Is he spamming aerials or approaching with dtilts / on the ground? Up air / bair beats the former, and the latter is a little harder to combat, but tilts work nicely, as does the occasional retreating fair.
I know for a fact that leffen did a full hop fair on your shield and you did nothing. Anytime a marth fairs your shield at tipper range, you get a free up air. If they do the fair --> crossup thing, you have to do a bit of reading, but 99% of the time, they just end up dash dancing and looking for a grab... so stomp. Or bair. It's easy. Only thing you gotta watch out for is up tilt instead of the dash dance.
The matchup is very cognitive, and you should always be looking to stay one step ahead because marth having you in an unfavorable position often times means the stock.
Also, DI. Marth doesn't have a lot of great kill moves (I'm learning more and more as I play this frustrating character lol), so DI away at low % always. Even if you get grabbed and thrown off stage, DI AWAY. If you DI away and especially SDI away, marth's combo starting moves (fair / nair) won't lead into anything. Not getting grabbed after a low % nair makes such a huge difference.
As tempting as it can be to rush in vs marth when he's outside center stage, work on your patience. Let him come to you and then punish. As for when you're in the corner, like I said, regaining center can be tricky, but a little trick I like to do is regrab the ledge and either waveland in --> buffer roll or ledge hop --> down-b. The second one sounds silly and you have to use it wisely, but it works GREAT against marths who like to repeatedly dtilt you on the edge and then wavedash back when you come up and keep dtilting... LOL, yea, there are marths that actually think this is good ledge pressure.
As for your footsies / neutral, pay attention to what your opponent is doing. Is he spamming aerials or approaching with dtilts / on the ground? Up air / bair beats the former, and the latter is a little harder to combat, but tilts work nicely, as does the occasional retreating fair.
I know for a fact that leffen did a full hop fair on your shield and you did nothing. Anytime a marth fairs your shield at tipper range, you get a free up air. If they do the fair --> crossup thing, you have to do a bit of reading, but 99% of the time, they just end up dash dancing and looking for a grab... so stomp. Or bair. It's easy. Only thing you gotta watch out for is up tilt instead of the dash dance.
The matchup is very cognitive, and you should always be looking to stay one step ahead because marth having you in an unfavorable position often times means the stock.
Also, DI. Marth doesn't have a lot of great kill moves (I'm learning more and more as I play this frustrating character lol), so DI away at low % always. Even if you get grabbed and thrown off stage, DI AWAY. If you DI away and especially SDI away, marth's combo starting moves (fair / nair) won't lead into anything. Not getting grabbed after a low % nair makes such a huge difference.
Nice video. Good demonstration of how the untechable stomp works and what goes into it. The tumble animation does seem to bring an annoying variable into the equation, though. Is it % dependent? DI dependent? I'm going to a tournament today, so I'll be sure to mess around with it a little bit and get back to you. There's a chance dart will be there, so I can try and grab him for some play time and experiment.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Yeah it would definitely only be ok with DI behind since it has such low trajectory.... If you miss you still get the stomp damage and maybe even a follow-up but obviously you won't have a lot of frame advantage for that techchasing situation so it would usually require a read.
It's very hard not to grab, but if you're at center stage, it'll put marth in a worse position than dthrow + uair or bair would.
Still trying to figure out exactly how good this is. At this point it's extremely difficult to discover anything truly ground-breaking, but every little advantage helps, especially with Ganon, where one hit can change EVERYTHING.
It's very hard not to grab, but if you're at center stage, it'll put marth in a worse position than dthrow + uair or bair would.
Still trying to figure out exactly how good this is. At this point it's extremely difficult to discover anything truly ground-breaking, but every little advantage helps, especially with Ganon, where one hit can change EVERYTHING.
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YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
Ayy we got 2 guest, wipe yo feet dawg
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Damn my bad guys; hope I didn't leave any tracks.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
Suprised you didn't, with them big ass cloud boots
PaperstSoapCo
Smash Lord
might have a stream up at 1130 at my place. will post link. will feature spider sense, blea, smilez, damian and more. 2 ganons, luigi, fox and ics.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lol I'm the only SFL smasher that prefers to play before midnight.
PaperstSoapCo
I can't make it tonight, I'll almost be in bed by the time you guys start playing lol. Also I kinda hurt my wrist practicing tech today, hopefully it's just random but I'm gonna chill on it for a bit, most pain I've ever experienced from melee. Probably skipping versus too.
PaperstSoapCo
I can't make it tonight, I'll almost be in bed by the time you guys start playing lol. Also I kinda hurt my wrist practicing tech today, hopefully it's just random but I'm gonna chill on it for a bit, most pain I've ever experienced from melee. Probably skipping versus too.
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Renth
Smash Hero
Working on an important video, I just need to borrows someones 20XX so I can show off a few guaranteed things I want to show lag/frames ect. I've been theory crafting hard and I think I got what I want for it, problem isssss
No 20XX to show off legitimacy
No 20XX to show off legitimacy
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Alright so for my 1000th post I wanted to take a moment to really get into depth about playing the neutral as Ganondorf.
The neutral is basically this: You are trying to force something out of your opponent, "pressure" them essentially, to do something that you can punish to your maximum ability. When a Fox is dash dancing in neutral and waiting for you to do something, he can drill shine, what happens when you don't commit to a move? Does he become impatient? Does his movement start putting you into a corner? Ganon's DD is already butt as it is, but it's something until the Fox/Falcon/whatever character tries to approach you by coming in with something. The timing for when the opponent actually does this is usually the same amongst all mid-level players. It's roughly 1 second long, and it's why so many people get hit out of their shield while waiting in shield, cause everyone waits that exact same time to do something out of shield or out of doing "nothing" and it's a habit that many top players have picked up on and punished really well.
What top players are so good at doing is conditioning their opponent to believe they will do something in neutral, and then when they are about to bait, they do something unexpected, and then come in right afterwards. You rarely ever see someone do two or three fakes in a row to throw off the opponent, cause then they might get hit for trying to bait. It's a rough balance to try to make but knowing your opponents intentions, and knowing what they think they need to do in neutral in order to get a hit on you is really important to remember. It's all what is going on in the mind, and if you're a step ahead of your opponent, then you will win no matter what character you play.
I'll do a SH instant upair in neutral for multiple reasons: Cause it is a big fcking move that no one wants to get hit by since it knocks down so damn early and can lead into a hefty punish game. Ganon is so great about threatening with his huge hitboxes because they knock down so early and do so much damage. Just that alone makes people have to respect Ganon some more. I also to the upair because I have that timing I mentioned before in my head and I'm "soft-reading" (basically making an educated guess) that he is going to try to run in and shine or he is going to SH and drill. If you're one step ahead, once he jumps he's fcked cause he's gonna get hit by that proactive upair. You DO NOT do the upair just to throw a move out. It has MULTIPLE purposes and covers multiple options, and having good reactions to what happens when you throw the move out is key as well. Hearing the sound of Ganon's upair immediately connecting on someone is something you can react to and go into punishment and pressure mode. Remember, people get afraid really quick once Ganon starts getting hits, and they are likely to play more defensive and shield more.
Now of course, this isn't true for every player you will face. Some players have more confidence in neutral and will attack instead of retreating or shielding when you think they will. You can pick up on this rather quickly, as someone aggressive like that who is throwing out moves can easily be beaten by using your shield cleverly and getting out of it in good ways. n0ne did a great job of teaching me this concept against aggressive players because there are SO many occasions where I play someone and they really want to "pressure" your shield but they never actually think to grab *cough* like many Falco players *cough*. They have to hit your shield like 3 or 4 times to maybe think that grabbing is a good idea, and again, this timing can be learned through playing other people over time.
Being fast is another component of a really strong neutral. You gotta have those fast reactions and you do that by looking for CUES from your opponent. There is almost always a cue that your opponent gives off before he does something else, and you can get hard punishes in neutral from this once you pick up on them (an example of a cue would be dashing back and forth three times before attacking forward in neutral). Top players will rarely ever show these cues, or falsely do cues in order to throw you off and punish you. Trust me, the faster you are moving and the more unpredictably quick you become in neutral, the more scared your opponent will become of you and you can take HUGE advantage of this in neutral. This is where your opponent HAS to respect you or else they are going to get destroyed. I have felt this numerous times against really solid players and they know it very very well. A really fast and aggressive Marth that knows how to move will always scare me more than a slow/patient Marth in neutral. It's one of the main reasons why fighting PPMD in neutral is scary cause he's moving in a way that keeps me guessing and he finds an opportunity while I'm trying to scramble and figure out what he is doing. Your movement in neutral shouldn't be wasted by any means, you must move with purpose, but you must be moving almost all of the time and be fluid in your motion.
Fluidity is another point that I want to go over. Going back to the upair in neutral example from before, let's say I miss the upair and my opponent jumps over me. Remember that WHILE I am doing the move, if I don't have that sound cue that I hit my opponent, my mind should automatically go on the defensive and look to see where my opponent went and what his intention is to do once I have whiffed my move. 90% of players will try to attack me immediately without looking at my percent and get CCed. Very few players will run up and grab me, but grab is smart here because if my upair was without confidence and I'm afraid he is going to hit more or I am predicting he is going to his me and I shield, he already knows that's what I'm thinking and just grabs and keeps putting on the pressure. So even if you miss with a move, you can always hold down while you're in lag and get to the ground so you can use your powerful CC option. And if your opponent doesn't attack you or grab you immediately while you're in lag? You move. You get out of there or you "read" what your opponent does next and the cycle repeats. You can waveland all over platforms as much as you want as long as you keep it unpredictable and know what kind of predictability your opponent is looking for.
When I am playing on point I feel this so greatly and my confidence in neutral is through the roof. Sure, Ganon is slow but there are still so many things he can do in neutral to get into people's heads that many people aren't fully utilizing cause they don't have great game sense or fundamentals.
So earlier I was talking a lot about you getting hits in neutral, but what about you GETTING HIT in neutral? The important thing to remember is that yeah, you lost neutral, but you can minimize the punishment with your DI, SDI, CCing, and finding the nearest out you can once you get hit. For example, if a Marth up throws me at low percent, I can usually safely double jump out and away from him, and on the way down I am threatening him with a potential bair or something, so he has to respect me coming down and I'm out of his punishment and back to neutral. Sometimes you just need to get to the ledge as soon as possible when you are sent off stage, but top players are really aware of mid-level players trying to go for the edge in order to get out of punishment, that they throw out an attack early to cover that option and it works so many times. They KNOW you're going for that ledge. When you pick up they THEY know this, then you can recover high, cause they will commit to attacking low to cover an option. Sadly, Fox, Marth, and several other Top tiers do not fall victim too much to scenarios like these because even if they whiff a move covering one option, they have AMAZING flow potential to cover their mistakes and still be in control. Ganon sadly doesn't have as many options in these scenarios as other top tiers do, so it's important to keep that in mind.
When your opponent is punishing you, you have to be familiar with what punish they are gonna go for. If they go for something really bread and butter, then that's really easy to get out of.
Alright well I've talked a bit more than about neutral but that's my whole spiel/rambling about it. I might do a stream on neutral kinda like what Lucien did but I'll have to find the right occasion for it. Maybe I could just refer back to this post when I do it. idk.
The neutral is basically this: You are trying to force something out of your opponent, "pressure" them essentially, to do something that you can punish to your maximum ability. When a Fox is dash dancing in neutral and waiting for you to do something, he can drill shine, what happens when you don't commit to a move? Does he become impatient? Does his movement start putting you into a corner? Ganon's DD is already butt as it is, but it's something until the Fox/Falcon/whatever character tries to approach you by coming in with something. The timing for when the opponent actually does this is usually the same amongst all mid-level players. It's roughly 1 second long, and it's why so many people get hit out of their shield while waiting in shield, cause everyone waits that exact same time to do something out of shield or out of doing "nothing" and it's a habit that many top players have picked up on and punished really well.
What top players are so good at doing is conditioning their opponent to believe they will do something in neutral, and then when they are about to bait, they do something unexpected, and then come in right afterwards. You rarely ever see someone do two or three fakes in a row to throw off the opponent, cause then they might get hit for trying to bait. It's a rough balance to try to make but knowing your opponents intentions, and knowing what they think they need to do in neutral in order to get a hit on you is really important to remember. It's all what is going on in the mind, and if you're a step ahead of your opponent, then you will win no matter what character you play.
I'll do a SH instant upair in neutral for multiple reasons: Cause it is a big fcking move that no one wants to get hit by since it knocks down so damn early and can lead into a hefty punish game. Ganon is so great about threatening with his huge hitboxes because they knock down so early and do so much damage. Just that alone makes people have to respect Ganon some more. I also to the upair because I have that timing I mentioned before in my head and I'm "soft-reading" (basically making an educated guess) that he is going to try to run in and shine or he is going to SH and drill. If you're one step ahead, once he jumps he's fcked cause he's gonna get hit by that proactive upair. You DO NOT do the upair just to throw a move out. It has MULTIPLE purposes and covers multiple options, and having good reactions to what happens when you throw the move out is key as well. Hearing the sound of Ganon's upair immediately connecting on someone is something you can react to and go into punishment and pressure mode. Remember, people get afraid really quick once Ganon starts getting hits, and they are likely to play more defensive and shield more.
Now of course, this isn't true for every player you will face. Some players have more confidence in neutral and will attack instead of retreating or shielding when you think they will. You can pick up on this rather quickly, as someone aggressive like that who is throwing out moves can easily be beaten by using your shield cleverly and getting out of it in good ways. n0ne did a great job of teaching me this concept against aggressive players because there are SO many occasions where I play someone and they really want to "pressure" your shield but they never actually think to grab *cough* like many Falco players *cough*. They have to hit your shield like 3 or 4 times to maybe think that grabbing is a good idea, and again, this timing can be learned through playing other people over time.
Being fast is another component of a really strong neutral. You gotta have those fast reactions and you do that by looking for CUES from your opponent. There is almost always a cue that your opponent gives off before he does something else, and you can get hard punishes in neutral from this once you pick up on them (an example of a cue would be dashing back and forth three times before attacking forward in neutral). Top players will rarely ever show these cues, or falsely do cues in order to throw you off and punish you. Trust me, the faster you are moving and the more unpredictably quick you become in neutral, the more scared your opponent will become of you and you can take HUGE advantage of this in neutral. This is where your opponent HAS to respect you or else they are going to get destroyed. I have felt this numerous times against really solid players and they know it very very well. A really fast and aggressive Marth that knows how to move will always scare me more than a slow/patient Marth in neutral. It's one of the main reasons why fighting PPMD in neutral is scary cause he's moving in a way that keeps me guessing and he finds an opportunity while I'm trying to scramble and figure out what he is doing. Your movement in neutral shouldn't be wasted by any means, you must move with purpose, but you must be moving almost all of the time and be fluid in your motion.
Fluidity is another point that I want to go over. Going back to the upair in neutral example from before, let's say I miss the upair and my opponent jumps over me. Remember that WHILE I am doing the move, if I don't have that sound cue that I hit my opponent, my mind should automatically go on the defensive and look to see where my opponent went and what his intention is to do once I have whiffed my move. 90% of players will try to attack me immediately without looking at my percent and get CCed. Very few players will run up and grab me, but grab is smart here because if my upair was without confidence and I'm afraid he is going to hit more or I am predicting he is going to his me and I shield, he already knows that's what I'm thinking and just grabs and keeps putting on the pressure. So even if you miss with a move, you can always hold down while you're in lag and get to the ground so you can use your powerful CC option. And if your opponent doesn't attack you or grab you immediately while you're in lag? You move. You get out of there or you "read" what your opponent does next and the cycle repeats. You can waveland all over platforms as much as you want as long as you keep it unpredictable and know what kind of predictability your opponent is looking for.
When I am playing on point I feel this so greatly and my confidence in neutral is through the roof. Sure, Ganon is slow but there are still so many things he can do in neutral to get into people's heads that many people aren't fully utilizing cause they don't have great game sense or fundamentals.
So earlier I was talking a lot about you getting hits in neutral, but what about you GETTING HIT in neutral? The important thing to remember is that yeah, you lost neutral, but you can minimize the punishment with your DI, SDI, CCing, and finding the nearest out you can once you get hit. For example, if a Marth up throws me at low percent, I can usually safely double jump out and away from him, and on the way down I am threatening him with a potential bair or something, so he has to respect me coming down and I'm out of his punishment and back to neutral. Sometimes you just need to get to the ledge as soon as possible when you are sent off stage, but top players are really aware of mid-level players trying to go for the edge in order to get out of punishment, that they throw out an attack early to cover that option and it works so many times. They KNOW you're going for that ledge. When you pick up they THEY know this, then you can recover high, cause they will commit to attacking low to cover an option. Sadly, Fox, Marth, and several other Top tiers do not fall victim too much to scenarios like these because even if they whiff a move covering one option, they have AMAZING flow potential to cover their mistakes and still be in control. Ganon sadly doesn't have as many options in these scenarios as other top tiers do, so it's important to keep that in mind.
When your opponent is punishing you, you have to be familiar with what punish they are gonna go for. If they go for something really bread and butter, then that's really easy to get out of.
Alright well I've talked a bit more than about neutral but that's my whole spiel/rambling about it. I might do a stream on neutral kinda like what Lucien did but I'll have to find the right occasion for it. Maybe I could just refer back to this post when I do it. idk.
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That was a really great read.
For me, neutral is something I really need to figure out against spacies. went 0-2 in tourney due to 2 good spacies (i went fox against them lol, didn't help. Ganon is not a good pick against these guys atm...), and the problem I really have with the ganon-fox/falco matchup, and to a lesser degree falcon/marth, is that I'm just not very good at predicting when they're going to attack. I keep either going in too early and getting punished, or letting them back me into a corner.
When I'm already pressuring them I do mostly fine.
For me, neutral is something I really need to figure out against spacies. went 0-2 in tourney due to 2 good spacies (i went fox against them lol, didn't help. Ganon is not a good pick against these guys atm...), and the problem I really have with the ganon-fox/falco matchup, and to a lesser degree falcon/marth, is that I'm just not very good at predicting when they're going to attack. I keep either going in too early and getting punished, or letting them back me into a corner.
When I'm already pressuring them I do mostly fine.
Duskane
Smash Rookie
actually kinda enlightening
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I like instant uair to dj wL. You can wL ff uair off a plat (uair again) or wL off the plat to ff wL on stage. No one really expects this.
Neutral really is the only bad part. As soon as you get a grab, a dair, or any hit that forces them to tech or go offstage, scrub foxes and top foxes alike become your personal punching bag. Neutral is the only time that a top level fox is a top level fox, so we have to minimize the amount of neutral game they play. Linguini does this extremely well, instinctually, through cornering spacies. Reaction time is huge, as it makes your hard reads not so "hard" and you will be less likely to yolo an ftilt after an L-cancel (for example) and get punished.
When I'M cornered, I love seeing if they will fall for a basic trap. INV ledgehop grab and INV ledgehop jab are very good. If they don't get close enough ledgehop side-b is decent because of reward (sends them offstage). A sneaky ledgedash to stomp is one of my favorites too, but people know how to cover ledgedash lol.
Neutral really is the only bad part. As soon as you get a grab, a dair, or any hit that forces them to tech or go offstage, scrub foxes and top foxes alike become your personal punching bag. Neutral is the only time that a top level fox is a top level fox, so we have to minimize the amount of neutral game they play. Linguini does this extremely well, instinctually, through cornering spacies. Reaction time is huge, as it makes your hard reads not so "hard" and you will be less likely to yolo an ftilt after an L-cancel (for example) and get punished.
When I'M cornered, I love seeing if they will fall for a basic trap. INV ledgehop grab and INV ledgehop jab are very good. If they don't get close enough ledgehop side-b is decent because of reward (sends them offstage). A sneaky ledgedash to stomp is one of my favorites too, but people know how to cover ledgedash lol.
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Duel
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 167
Pretty much the best thing I've read on here, I would love to start applying all of this ASAP!
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
One more thing that is paramount vs spacies:
Your fullhop dair needs to be FP so that it will reach the lowest. Fullhop dair oos is normally the best choice, especially vs fastfallers, when you shield an early aerial (hits top of your shield). Hitting fox is very tough (kinda like uair scooping the top of his head) and if your stomp comes out even a frame late you'll miss. If you don't miss, potential huge punish.
Your fullhop dair needs to be FP so that it will reach the lowest. Fullhop dair oos is normally the best choice, especially vs fastfallers, when you shield an early aerial (hits top of your shield). Hitting fox is very tough (kinda like uair scooping the top of his head) and if your stomp comes out even a frame late you'll miss. If you don't miss, potential huge punish.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Yea, but I'm pretty sure you can react to it and just jab again. Most of the time, they're spamming dsmash and the second jab pushes them out of the way. Free stomp.
Good peaches don't rely on CCing the jab into dsmash.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
WTFFFFF I hate peach. It can't be too bad, though, right? Like very specific spacings, maybe? Because I know for a fact that I've hit a crouching peach with jab.
Yea, jab is a good move. Too bad it still kinda sucks because it isn't safe on shield.
PaperstSoapCo
Smash Lord
jab to pivot jab works so good for getting out of shield grab range. blocked crossed over aerials are great to follow up with jab also. jab is the in check button.
Yep, crossover bair/dair to turnaround jab is my thing.
I really gotta practice that pivot jab thing, I've seen you do it and it's so good. I'm always mindlessly jabbing shields repeatedly in the hope they'll mess up the grab and get hit. I guess you can also do jab on shield to grab? Never really tried it.
I really gotta practice that pivot jab thing, I've seen you do it and it's so good. I'm always mindlessly jabbing shields repeatedly in the hope they'll mess up the grab and get hit. I guess you can also do jab on shield to grab? Never really tried it.
Duskane
Smash Rookie
Yeah peach can get like you have to play defense around her
But try not to rage lol
Kage always calm and collective with his matchs and a good sport
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
Fair uair to wizard's foot is the Ganon ken combo B) copyrighted by Yvng
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lol details.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
I was labbing with the homie at his crib, On DL, he mains marth, I fair'd him, followed up with and upair to send his ass offstage to a dj wizards foot #SickNasty
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Can't they theoretically grab you after the first jab though? Or do you use the IASA frames to get out of that range? Kels is always able to grab me after the first jab hits shield.
Yo, this was really good. Excellent description of what neutral is / how to go about it.
Newbies pls read
Coastward
Smash Lord
shoutouts to @Divinokage and that MH rep.
whens the brazzers rep so we can complete the triforce of XXX?
whens the brazzers rep so we can complete the triforce of XXX?
PaperstSoapCo
Smash Lord
psuedo you can get grabbed before the next but this does close out you getting grabbed if your opponent doesnt react asap. punishes like jumping dair to avoid being grabbed and counter attacking can condition an opponent to give time before they react giving you enough time to stuff them in their sheild or get the jab if they tried being sneaky.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I see what you're saying. Basically, if the jab comes as a surprise, then they won't punish it (similar to side-b on shield. It CAN be shield grabbed if they shield DI, but people don't react that quickly). Then once they don't, they get bodied by pivot jab.
I need to practice my pivots. Not having a setup really sucks (had to give my buddy back his crt LOL), my tech skill is good, but it'll only stay at this level if I don't practice... just got melee working on dolphin though, so that should help a bit.
I need to practice my pivots. Not having a setup really sucks (had to give my buddy back his crt LOL), my tech skill is good, but it'll only stay at this level if I don't practice... just got melee working on dolphin though, so that should help a bit.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lol I picked up a crt for tipman on the way to his house a few weeks ago. $15 EZ
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
pick this dawg
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'll pick your $20 bill off the table if you want to money match
NickNasty
Smash Cadet
Myself and anjo are streaming atm if you wanna come join us.
Www.twitch.tv/anjosmash
Edit: we gud fam
Www.twitch.tv/anjosmash
Edit: we gud fam
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
If they don't react to both jabs they won't necessarily get hit. They could avoid the second jab by just selecting a passive option. But it does condition them to be more defensive which will work to your advantage.
I'm not quite understanding what
PaperstSoapCo
means by using jumping dair and counter attacking to avoid grabs. In what context are you talking about this? Like doing a dair or something with a jump straight after a jab? The goal is to get them to avoid reacting immediately. Does Ganon have any options that actually accomplish this?
One thing I've been thinking about is using an aerial on shield into up-b as a mixup for jab. You start by jabbing their shield after the aerial so they start waiting in their shield after an aerial. Then you start using up-b, which will hit because of its enormous range. The only problem is it doesn't combo and doesn't have that good kb so you have to wait until higher percents to do this.
I'm not quite understanding what
PaperstSoapCo
means by using jumping dair and counter attacking to avoid grabs. In what context are you talking about this? Like doing a dair or something with a jump straight after a jab? The goal is to get them to avoid reacting immediately. Does Ganon have any options that actually accomplish this?One thing I've been thinking about is using an aerial on shield into up-b as a mixup for jab. You start by jabbing their shield after the aerial so they start waiting in their shield after an aerial. Then you start using up-b, which will hit because of its enormous range. The only problem is it doesn't combo and doesn't have that good kb so you have to wait until higher percents to do this.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Also I discovered the other day how easy it is to bend people to your will when you're offstage (talking about spacies). I never really went for unsafe things like fair very often, but when I started just ****ing around with it I was finding I could make my opponent recover low just by throwing out a bunch of **** covering high options earlier in a game. Then I just started covering the low options and I'd go entire games without messing up edgeguards. I think fear is one of the most important tools Ganon has. Influencing someone to do what you want makes the reads so much easier.
The cool part was I was playing this way while on LSD against opponents that usually have the upper hand. Low doses really allowed me to open up my mind to the plethora of options available to me and my opponent at a given time without hindering my reactions the way other drugs and alcohol do. I played objectively better than I ever have and I knew it wasn't bull**** because I was playing against completely sober opponents that were trying to beat me.
I think I'm going to try taking psychedelic at a low dosage at a tournament and see how well I do and what I can learn. I don't want to be reliant on playing well by using a drug. But I gained a lot of subtle insights about the game that will improve my play no matter what state I'm in. Anyone else have any experiences like this? I'm not totally surprised it worked out, but it was still somewhat shocking how well it worked.
The cool part was I was playing this way while on LSD against opponents that usually have the upper hand. Low doses really allowed me to open up my mind to the plethora of options available to me and my opponent at a given time without hindering my reactions the way other drugs and alcohol do. I played objectively better than I ever have and I knew it wasn't bull**** because I was playing against completely sober opponents that were trying to beat me.
I think I'm going to try taking psychedelic at a low dosage at a tournament and see how well I do and what I can learn. I don't want to be reliant on playing well by using a drug. But I gained a lot of subtle insights about the game that will improve my play no matter what state I'm in. Anyone else have any experiences like this? I'm not totally surprised it worked out, but it was still somewhat shocking how well it worked.