Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

Kage your cc grabs make me LOL so hard sometimes.

On the super low, word is might get sponsored soon and attend a big tourney(s), so we might be doing some double ganon green greens(jab/fair) mm's like old times in the not too distant future.

Ya it looks pretty funny honestly, it almost looks like you grab them in the middle of the stage then you are suddenly cornered however they are grabbed lol. But damn.. that sounds like good news to me! =D

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh and I'm really sad I couldn't make it out. Too much school/work. I really want to meet the rest of the Ganons. So far I've only met Kage.

One day...

 

[PseudoTurtle]

So did you beat him in tournament? Did my tips help? :D

And yeah, I totally feel you on the matchup. The Puffs of New England make it really ****ing dumb. Squibble, who is the best Puff in our region, has been planking long before HBox started doing it. Can be very frustrating to play against, especially as Ganon lmao.

No, I mean I was sent to losers before even playing him... lol. It was pretty bad, honestly, but I played the guy who beat him in the second wave of pools and I beat him, so I'm just chalking it up to an off day. Johns, I know, but I really did play better the second day of the tournament. Too bad it wasn't enough to make it to top 64 or whatever.

But I wanted to know if I would have beaten him after (and he did too), so we just money matched. He said he was studying my matches / playstyle etc because he was worried, lolol not like he needed to be in the slightest because he beat me pretty handily in the money match.

What I've learned, though, after playing a little bit with abu, is that planking isn't that good vs ganon- at least, not when you're at low %. You can just drop with a bair (works better from a waveland off a platform) and double jump to the ledge / stage, which makes it a pretty low committal solution with a high reward if you're successful.

 

[Divinokage]

I think I also finally agree with hugs where if you MM a Jiggs it needs to be 10$ or more. I MMed one for 5$ before and the set lasted 30 mins.. not worth the time. lol

 

[aHarmlessCup]

I got tons of advice during BH5 that I got to implement in my waves of pools--

1. Falco approaches too closely/misuse laser in close quarters, just cc tank the laser and jab him. Simple thing that gives more breathing room other than just "powershiled the lasers" and move in-between them.
--Watched the last game of Duel vs the falco in our wave 2 and the difference in out gameplays were:
I chain grabbed harder for % and followed up with the ez d-smash tech chase at around 21% for the 2nd hit + fair/uair follow-up or 41% for the double dsmash hit into an aerial to get them offstage. From there, it was a matter of consistency on edgeguards. upthrow tilts at mid percent is also godlike to send them offstage. The game I did see, dthrow was used multiple times from 60-90% without a successful follow-up and was a free kill if only it were an upthrow I didn't go for many stomp reads or OoS stomps like Duel did (he was still v successful, but we had different playstyle approaches in the MU). Also lost the bo3 we got to play after waiting on our day2 matches to play lol [in fact, I think I lost all ganon dittos at BH5 LOL)

2. Holy watching Ian dropping in-between platforms when an opponent on the ledge is trying to get onto stage is amazing. It really puts it into perspective to not try and waveland everywhere and get get punished for it when your opponent catches onto your movements. Sometimes you can just hold your ground and threaten an area with hitboxes and the nerves will get to your opponent. I got to do this vs many sheik players, just continue to space bairs close to the ledge (enough to beat out them trying to fair onto stage, and most sheiks aren't patient and shinostall only once or twice before coming onto stage), making it it easy to edgeguard (or even waveland/ff grab ledge to sneakily ruin their shinostall, but more risky). Wavelanding off a platform/wavedash back offstage and tipmanning shieks on the startup of their up recovery can also prove to be useful when they recover low.

Thanks for being so accommodating @Vandire and the memelord himself @Genericjoey

PseudoTurtle @NickNasty Coastward , kage, eikelmann, the movement is even crispier in person, lmao. I went to as many setups as possible to just WATCH how other ganons play. Falco/marth continues to be a fun MU that I keep finding out more little things about. I remember just getting poopywhooped on from the ganons, so more time to study the little intricacies (punish down b's with dair, side-b can beat out fair/bair, etc

tm @Locke Robster Dedfinitely should play at genesis

:^))))))))

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Divinokage PseudoTurtle atleast with Hbox old ass retiring, the match up will be easier PvP wise

 

[Divinokage]

Divinokage PseudoTurtle atleast with Hbox old *** retiring, the match up will be easier PvP wise

What are you talking about?

 

[-ACE-]

I think I also finally agree with hugs where if you MM a Jiggs it needs to be 10$ or more. I MMed one for 5$ before and the set lasted 30 mins.. not worth the time. lol

Uhhh I'd probably enforce the same rule for a Samus tbh loool

 

[-ACE-]

What are you talking about?

He's saying the puff mu will change when hbox is gone (watch his job be mad chill and let him go to every national).

 

[Duel]

I got tons of advice during BH5 that I got to implement in my waves of pools--

1. Falco approaches too closely/misuse laser in close quarters, just cc tank the laser and jab him. Simple thing that gives more breathing room other than just "powershiled the lasers" and move in-between them.
--Watched the last game of Duel vs the falco in our wave 2 and the difference in out gameplays were:
I chain grabbed harder for % and followed up with the ez d-smash tech chase at around 21% for the 2nd hit + fair/uair follow-up or 41% for the double dsmash hit into an aerial to get them offstage. From there, it was a matter of consistency on edgeguards. upthrow tilts at mid percent is also godlike to send them offstage. The game I did see, dthrow was used multiple times from 60-90% without a successful follow-up and was a free kill if only it were an upthrow I didn't go for many stomp reads or OoS stomps like Duel did (he was still v successful, but we had different playstyle approaches in the MU). Also lost the bo3 we got to play after waiting on our day2 matches to play lol [in fact, I think I lost all ganon dittos at BH5 LOL)

2. Holy watching Ian dropping in-between platforms when an opponent on the ledge is trying to get onto stage is amazing. It really puts it into perspective to not try and waveland everywhere and get get punished for it when your opponent catches onto your movements. Sometimes you can just hold your ground and threaten an area with hitboxes and the nerves will get to your opponent. I got to do this vs many sheik players, just continue to space bairs close to the ledge (enough to beat out them trying to fair onto stage, and most sheiks aren't patient and shinostall only once or twice before coming onto stage), making it it easy to edgeguard (or even waveland/ff grab ledge to sneakily ruin their shinostall, but more risky). Wavelanding off a platform/wavedash back offstage and tipmanning shieks on the startup of their up recovery can also prove to be useful when they recover low.

Thanks for being so accommodating @Vandire and the memelord himself @Genericjoey

PseudoTurtle @NickNasty Coastward , kage, eikelmann, the movement is even crispier in person, lmao. I went to as many setups as possible to just WATCH how other ganons play. Falco/marth continues to be a fun MU that I keep finding out more little things about. I remember just getting poopywhooped on from the ganons, so more time to study the little intricacies (punish down b's with dair, side-b can beat out fair/bair, etc

tm @Locke Robster Dedfinitely should play at genesis

:^))))))))

Good advice on my gameplay, thanks for actually paying attention to my set. You are right, I need to upthrow, you say I should do that around 60 to 90 percent?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

On the super low, word is might get sponsored soon and attend a big tourney(s), so we might be doing some double ganon green greens(jab/fair) mm's like old times in the not too distant future.

Congratulations. Now come to Chicago
He won't admit it, but Kelly is still salty about losing to "a garbage character like ganon."

Real talk ganons, paragon in January (?) is looking real nice

Duel up throw is just a good mixup, don't *always* do it at 60-90%, but yea it's good if you do. If they catch on and start to DI it well, then mix up with the kage combo / chain grabs / etc.

Protip: up throw at ~50-60% can lead into up air. Many fast fallers are aware of this and they DI in because they expect the up air. If you predict they're doing this, throw out a dtilt.

up throw --> dtilt --> fair / dair for extra %, an edge guard situation, or tech chase opportunity. There is a ganon here (who's tag starts with "t" and is 2 letters long ) who doesn't think it's legit, but it worked on KJH multiple times (and KJH beat kage), kels, etc. Try it out. It's the ganon darkrain combo.

 

[-ACE-]

Using uthrow depends on your location more so than it does their percent.

^^ Even PPMD had some Ganon **** WAYYYYY wrong in his commentary (some involving uthrow info), shows how ignorant the masses are lol.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

^ good call, forgot to mention this. Experiment with it, Duel. Try up throwing onto a platform and seeing what % they will just barely land on the platform because a lot of people tend to miss the tech here.

*slightly related: this % is about 60% for sheik dthrow on battlefield. When you're chain grabbing sheik under a plat on battlefield, 60% is when the sheik will land on the platform and because of the animation, they almost always miss the tech. Free stomp. I know it's kinda gimmicky, but it works pretty consistently.

Anyway, try it with spacies and just look at their % and see what's up.

Cool cg mixups on FD / stadium / FoD (no platforms) / DL:

dthrow chain grab a fox / falco / falcon at higher % near the ledge. I like to do 2-3 in a row as quickly as you can (because they DI into the stage) and then pummel on the last one to give them time to process what is happening. Sometimes, it will click and they will DI off stage to mix you up. This is when you up throw; they DI behind you and you can get a free bair / ftilt and set up for an edge guard.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

He's saying the puff mu will change when hbox is gone (watch his job be mad chill and let him go to every national).

Thank you Ace

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

coastward im new to 20xx and learning and wanted to know what is the latest versions of it and if you experience freezing when using load and save state on the dpad? also i seen your stream one time and you have some frame data poping up on a different window while you were inputing and cp inputs. how can i get that?

 

[Coastward]

coastward im new to 20xx and learning and wanted to know what is the latest versions of it and if you experience freezing when using load and save state on the dpad? also i seen your stream one time and you have some frame data poping up on a different window while you were inputing and cp inputs. how can i get that?

sometimes if you load at certain times, the game freezes because it doesnt know what to do. so don't load when a character dies, when someone is on a spawn platform or if someone is in a ceiling KO animation.

the frame data stuff was my own text document that i had up on my stream, i was just compiling data while i tested stuff out.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

http://www.twitch.tv/bigbluees/v/19454330/?t=01h10m06s

Me vs. one of the best peaches in my region. Critique if you'd like. I'll do a critique of a video for you if you do ^.^

Not sure how do deal with peach in the corner. I also went for too many reads that were unsafe on shield. I'm aware of the obvious stuff. But there are definitely some micro position stuff that goes over my head.

e: They entered me as the hulk on stream for some reason. My tag is grim to be clear lol

 

[Duel]

I got 2nd today at my local , made 15 dollars but lost to a Fox in grand finals twice , ugh I hate playing against foxes who know exactly how I play . I lost 2 -0, 2- 0 , worst part is that every game was close and last stock .

It sucks never being able to apply the things I practice , I always go back to old habits ...

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

do you have vids?

 

[Duel]

do you have vids?

This was the only weekly that wasn't recorded . I have friendlies recorded but no tournaments really . I'm going to a tourney on Sunday that will be streamed by melee it on me, so I should hopefully get on there if I play well . how do you guys teach yourself to use new tech during a serious match ?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Protip: up throw at ~50-60% can lead into up air. Many fast fallers are aware of this and they DI in because they expect the up air. If you predict they're doing this, throw out a dtilt.

up throw --> dtilt --> fair / dair for extra %, an edge guard situation, or tech chase opportunity. There is a ganon here (who's tag starts with "t" and is 2 letters long ) who doesn't think it's legit, but it worked on KJH multiple times (and KJH beat kage), kels, etc. Try it out. It's the ganon darkrain combo.

I can attest to this being legit as well. And it's definitely something you can react to. So it's not like you have to get a read, you can just use it to super hard punish certain DI. That's why it's so good. There's like nothing more optimal to punish with if they DI in this way off a uthrow at that percent range.

I'm not sure, but I believe you can't get uair if they DI all the way away from you at that percent. But if they don't DI far enough you can get uair. And if they don't DI at all or they DI in, you can get dtilt. If they DI behind, you get a jab, turn around grab, or ftilt. All of this is pretty easy to react to, no need for a prediction.

From the experiments I've done, you can cover all the options off uthrow in that percent range in positions (on stages with platforms) where the only DI they can use to avoid getting hit (DI away) lands them on a platform. So pretty much you are diagonally away from a platform facing it.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

PseudoTurtle got me wondering all the percents that sheik lands on platform from dthrow for the other stages and i'll find out when I wake up, cause I AIN'T taking that shone to FD

 

[-ACE-]

PseudoTurtle got me wondering all the percents that sheik lands on platform from dthrow for the other stages and i'll find out when I wake up, cause I AIN'T taking that shone to FD

Doing some experimenting. After a fresh dthrow, FALCO will land on the lower platforms of the following stages at these corresponding DI's and damage percents.

Battlefield:
No DI: lands starting at 78%
DI Behind: starting at 119%
DI away: starting at 75%

Yoshi's (Ganon not standing on the slant):
No DI: starting at 42%, consistently at 43%
DI Behind: starting at 80%
DI away: starting at 37%

DL64
No DI: starting at 107%
DI Behind: starting at 151%
DI away: starting at 105%

Sheik on BF:

No DI: lands at 57% fresh, 61% stale.
DI behind: stale is near like 90% so..... (ez test cg lvl1 cpu)
DI away: lands at 54% fresh, (guessing 58% stale)

I was a little ambiguous with my last statement. All percents are before dthrow.

There's BF data for sheik.

 

[tm]

coastward im new to 20xx and learning and wanted to know what is the latest versions of it and if you experience freezing when using load and save state on the dpad? also i seen your stream one time and you have some frame data poping up on a different window while you were inputing and cp inputs. how can i get that?

Latest is 3.02, you can find it here

The commands listed on the page and infographic are for in-game codes, during normal play. You can also use develop mode to test more things and advance frame-by-frame. To do this (or to change any 20XX options) go to Versus Mode -> Debug Menu, and change the settings there.

Here is a list of commands for Develop mode

Like coastward said, it crashes when you try to load and save from certain incompatible states, so make sure that when you load and save, both characters aren't grabbing ledge / dying / on the respawn platform / still have intangibility from respawn. Safer to just wait a few seconds after they respawn

PseudoTurtle got me wondering all the percents that sheik lands on platform from dthrow for the other stages and i'll find out when I wake up, cause I AIN'T taking that shone to FD

On Yoshi's, the EARLIEST is like 29%, but more usually like 32% (but you have to react quickly to regrab the DI if they aren't trying to go to plat). BF is about 60%. Dreamland is really high but still before the chaingrab ends... I'm thinking like 80-85, but not confident on that one. Poke is probably similar to Yoshis
These %s are AFTER the throw damage

 

[Divinokage]

Ya i have been told that im slow for some reason and yet when you actually look what happens then you can see that all those decisions are made almost instantly =P

 

[spider_sense]

Ya i have been told that im slow for some reason and yet when you actually look what happens then you can see that all those decisions are made almost instantly =P

Tech off Kage?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Tech off Kage?

Tech off Jason?

 

[spider_sense]

Tech off Jason?

Down.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

20 SECOND VIDEO your stage of choice. Best technicals win. Judging will be decided by how many techs were performed and the difficulty of them.

All submissions in by 10-15-15. all submissions welcome.

cell phone footage allowed. Would actually be cool to see what people come up with if you guys are actually down. Im predicting psuedo dashes? Maybe 2 in a row?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Im predicting psuedo dashes? Maybe 2 in a row?

You act like this is difficult

 

[-ACE-]

What if I do 15 ledgehop uair regrabs in a row lmao.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

how about if I walk up slowly, and down smash

 

[-ACE-]

how about if I walk up slowly, and down smash

Yo I've heard enough scar references for one lifetime.

 

[-ACE-]

Also PseudoTurtle usually I uthrow when a plat is in front of me or if DI away puts them offstage (med% and up).

I have a feeling that you could be spaced so that NO DI from your uthrow would cause them to barely miss the plat, and DI away + techroll away could still be punishable by dash sh uair. Could be a good setup at those magic dtilt percents, if they don't DI you could dtilt into plat techchase (punish any way you want including dair to aerial). Obviously situational.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

No you're supposed to walk up slowly and up smash.

 

[-FEMTO-]

Hey guys!

So I've been struggling with the Marth MU for a long while. I've started to improve in it but I still lose more than I should, even to the crappiest Marth players. Here are 3 games of me against Leffen's Marth. I'd be grateful for whatever critique and/or tips you guys can give me. Most of the time it's so overwhelming playing against him that I can't even breathe, but I tried my best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmVdB26LoEE

(Spoiler Alert: I lose.)

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

2 things thatll change your outcome in this match up are avoiding throwing an aerial just because you dj. landlag would keep you fresh and you do it when marth is dding out of range. second is punishing shielded shfair from marth with uair.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Also PseudoTurtle usually I uthrow when a plat is in front of me or if DI away puts them offstage (med% and up).

I have a feeling that you could be spaced so that NO DI from your uthrow would cause them to barely miss the plat, and DI away + techroll away could still be punishable by dash sh uair. Could be a good setup at those magic dtilt percents, if they don't DI you could dtilt into plat techchase (punish any way you want including dair to aerial). Obviously situational.

Actually sounds like it would work really well on DL. More time to react

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Hey guys!

So I've been struggling with the Marth MU for a long while. I've started to improve in it but I still lose more than I should, even to the crappiest Marth players. Here are 3 games of me against Leffen's Marth. I'd be grateful for whatever critique and/or tips you guys can give me. Most of the time it's so overwhelming playing against him that I can't even breathe, but I tried my best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmVdB26LoEE

(Spoiler Alert: I lose.)

Pimp Squad

 

[-ACE-]

Bonus for you guys, yesterday I recorded over 100,000 useful baits.

http://youtu.be/EJ8OISvsMoI