Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RedmanSSBM]

@ RedmanSSBM i MIGHT have an open spot in my room, it'd be with 5 other people thought so idk if you'd be down.

i'll get back to you on info about splitting and **** and if the spot is still open.

Doesn't matter to me how many people are in the room. I'm fine with sleeping on the floor.

 

[-ACE-]

The plats on PS are freaking awesome lol. **** the other transformations.

I really should try to upgrade my game on FoD. **** banning small stages as Ganon lol.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Fountain Of shield Drops my friend. And honestly the same goes for pokemon stadium on the transformations. Those weird ass platforms can be used to your advantage.

 

[Bwmat]

**** fod.

I've gone back to just banning it without further thought, even if my opponent plays falcon or w/e. I just hate it, damn platforms always get in my way (and I can't shield drop worth ****).

 

[Linguini]

Battlefield all day. Yoshi's used to be my favorite but faster chars can get inside your space quickly if you're not careful. Stadium is my third fav because I love the platforms in neutral.

FoD is a nightmare for me lol, I ban it but been going fox if it's Finals and there's no bansies

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I just hate stadium so much. It's such an absolute nightmare vs fox lol, so much space for that fvcker to run around and the low ceiling to boot. Add in the lack of a top platform, which is SO important for spacing (at least IMO) and I can't even begin to appreciate it transformation-free.

... Then there are the completely ******** transformations which ONLY benefit fox and no other character, except for ganon at like one part (which a competent player won't even go near) and you have my least favorite stage.

Grim, you're right about battlefield. I think I prefer yoshi's because I suck total @$$ at edge guarding spacies LOL, so that aspect doesn't even really matter to me. I just like the quick kills where edge guarding is unnecessary.

On another note, I love that the FL ganon scene is back. Linguini and Tipman are playing again, Spidey is coming out to big house, ACE is down there droppin knowledge bombs, and Ian is climbing the ranks so quickly. I'm really gonna try and make my way down there at some point. Tip and Linguini, I haven't played you guys yet, you're both on my hit list

 

[Coastward]

FoD is godlike what are you guys saying

im like, hella positive on there against fox and falco. i dont know what it is though, maybe cuz i practice all my tech on there most of the time.

 

[-ACE-]

I ban FD and FoD probably about the same and the only other stage I ban is DL64 vs peach/puff.

I might practice my tech on there like coast until I get more accustomed to the platform options. I know I've landed some sick combos with edge cancels, but they were on reaction, gotta figure out some setups. I know ground game can make up for platforms stuffing aerials.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I ban FD and FoD probably about the same and the only other stage I ban is DL64 vs peach/puff.

I might practice my tech on there like coast until I get more accustomed to the platform options. I know I've landed some sick combos with edge cancels, but they were on reaction, gotta figure out some setups. I know ground game can make up for platforms stuffing aerials.

Funny that you mention you ban DL against Peach and Puff. I think I have started to not do that and instead ban FD against floats because I feel like platforms are very important for Ganon in neutral, not to mention that Ganon can live longer on DL (yeah i know floaties edge guard him to **** rofl). I don't like FD too much against floats because it feels like they can easily control the stage and Ganon just can't get around as well. He has to commit so much to wave landing in neutral and spacing out and I just feel comfortable when there are no platforms for me to retreat to. I don't care that Puff or Peach don't die until a bit later, Ganon still hits hard as hell. I'd much rather have a big stage with platforms than no platforms at all.

Also I definitely think practicing movement and experimenting on Fountain will help you to understand what you can do with the heights of each of the platforms. I did this with Falcon and a good bit of it with Ganon as well. Like, if you do a near-frame-perfect drop through platform and bair, you can probably hit an opponent near the ledge at some of the lower heights, and with pair it comes out faster, but doesn't have that lower angle of bair.

I like PS against Fox when there aren't transformations that are Rock or Fire rofl. Neutral PS is actually pretty okay for me, as I don't feel like I need the top platform too much. And even if there is a transformation, you can see when the stage is about to change and what transformation it will turn into. So if I see it's gonna be dumb ol Rock, I'll go over to the left side and camp at the cliff until it comes back to neutral.

 

[gmBottles]

I actually like all of the stages, though Battlefield has always been my go-to because I'm a GOD at edgeguarding spacies.
My bans really all depend on how I felt about game 1, why I think I lost and how the opponent was playing. If they are playing really aggro I'm probably not going to go to Yoshi's because I won't have any breathing room, I'd rather take them to a bigger stage.

 

[Duel]

I actually find I do surprisingly well on FD against peach and Puff because of the low ceilings. As far as DL and FoD go, I will CP to one or the other against a fox based on his playstyle. If he is campy I go FoD, if he is aggressive I go DL.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I actually like all of the stages, though Battlefield has always been my go-to because I'm a GOD at edgeguarding spacies.
My bans really all depend on how I felt about game 1, why I think I lost and how the opponent was playing. If they are playing really aggro I'm probably not going to go to Yoshi's because I won't have any breathing room, I'd rather take them to a bigger stage.

See, I like yoshis against aggro players because as long as your spacing is OK and you don't shield too much, waiting for them to come in and camping with up air / retreating fair under the platform isn't a bad game plan.

Cc approaches into jab / grab and make a few reads and they're dead. Just my $0.02

Duel, I like that mindset on fod vs DL. I'm excited to play you again at big house to see how far you've progressed.

 

[gmBottles]

See, I like yoshis against aggro players because as long as your spacing is OK and you don't shield too much, waiting for them to come in and camping with up air / retreating fair under the platform isn't a bad game plan.

I actually have an issue with getting stuck in shield a lot, which I think is because I play Bowser so much. So maybe that is why I don't like it as much. That's one of the main bad habits I'm trying to break right now.

 

[Duel]

See, I like yoshis against aggro players because as long as your spacing is OK and you don't shield too much, waiting for them to come in and camping with up air / retreating fair under the platform isn't a bad game plan.

Cc approaches into jab / grab and make a few reads and they're dead. Just my $0.02

Duel, I like that mindset on fod vs DL. I'm excited to play you again at big house to see how far you've progressed.

Thanks dude, I will be there from thursday night until the tourney ends, we need to play. We didn't play at the last big house, but I have gotten so much better than I was last time. If I don't make it out of the first round I will be disappointed.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I actually have an issue with getting stuck in shield a lot, which I think is because I play Bowser so much. So maybe that is why I don't like it as much. That's one of the main bad habits I'm trying to break right now.

Ever experiment with wd out of shield? as long as you dont hold R/L too long that you end up shielding again out off the wd you can get away from being camped into a shield pressure game. I start resorting to this the more i notice my opponent pressuring me into shield.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ever experiment with wd out of shield? as long as you dont hold R/L too long that you end up shielding again out off the wd you can get away from being camped into a shield pressure game. I start resorting to this the more i notice my opponent pressuring me into shield.

Church of wd out of shield. Members: 2

I love wavedash out of shield so much and it's totally underused. I occasionally wd out of shield into shield too vs fox / etc so they misspace their aerials and it gets you a grab or an easy roll out of pressure. Do me a favor and experiment with it and tell me if it's legit or my opponents are just bad.

Marth's shield pressure is so ridiculously fake, too. If they ever get you into your shield all they do is repetitively dtilt (full hop fair), spam nair (up air) or dash dance away and wait for the roll (wd oos --> jab / tilt) in terms of pressuring you. It requires a decent read to beat, but it's very beatable, unlike good fox / falco pressure. Shielding vs marth can be pretty safe if you use it intelligently.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Hey @ gmBottles are you the same J$ that was at TFC this past weekend? There was a J$ in my pool that played a Samus main and lost just before the Samus main had to play me. I was wondering if that was you or not.

 

[NickNasty]

@ RedmanSSBM I'm gonna confirm with the homies I'm rooming with for you. I know we only have 3 people in our room atm so we might be able to take you in too.

 

[NickNasty]

Church of wd out of shield. Members: 2

I love wavedash out of shield so much and it's totally underused. I occasionally wd out of shield into shield too vs fox / etc so they misspace their aerials and it gets you a grab or an easy roll out of pressure. Do me a favor and experiment with it and tell me if it's legit or my opponents are just bad.

Marth's shield pressure is so ridiculously fake, too. If they ever get you into your shield all they do is repetitively dtilt (full hop fair), spam nair (up air) or dash dance away and wait for the roll (wd oos --> jab / tilt) in terms of pressuring you. It requires a decent read to beat, but it's very beatable, unlike good fox / falco pressure. Shielding vs marth can be pretty safe if you use it intelligently.

I'm a believer in the WD oos. I find they end up miss spacing nairs a ton and it makes for some really easy grabs/occasional fsmash :3

 

[Coastward]

@ RedmanSSBM aight so the spot in our room is yours if you want it.

$70 a night, thurs night - monday morning. only requirement is dont be a stinker lol.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ RedmanSSBM aight so the spot in our room is yours if you want it.

$70 a night, thurs night - monday morning. only requirement is dont be a stinker lol.

Wait... $70 a NIGHT per person? Did you book in the main hotel? That's $210 if I stay three nights.... something seems off about that math.

@ RedmanSSBM I'm gonna confirm with the homies I'm rooming with for you. I know we only have 3 people in our room atm so we might be able to take you in too.

That would be cool man, let me know the details so I can decide.

 

[Coastward]

Wait... $70 a NIGHT per person? Did you book in the main hotel? That's $210 if I stay three nights.... something seems off about that math.


That would be cool man, let me know the details so I can decide.

OH WAIT I MEANT 70 FOR THE WHOLE WEEKEND ROFLLLLLLL

 

[Bwmat]

I need to start using WD OOS more.

anyway, here's some videos for anyone bored:
vs mike li https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rA68MIvra0 (it all fell apart after the switch to fox in game 4... **** FoD)
bunch of doubles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2xUFMH7AM4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQosR21S3E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plmLmKBqAO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMmujrYaLR0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epiO3zvmTPw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAeIBvEqY7U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV9NMTGvcJ0
pools
https://youtu.be/H_5TyTzLK8U?t=6594
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgUPXiaColE - love the last stock in the second match on this one, lol

edit: Some of the links are wrong, rip. Maybe I'll fix them later.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

anyone have netplay on dolphin? i run at 60-61 frames and havent checked the netplay yet. prolly look into it tomorrow if anyone wants to get some games in.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

unlike good fox / falco pressure.

I've come to the conclusion that it's beatable, but you have to read what they're going to do. They have so many options, which makes it hard. But because their options are so fast, they have to read what you're going to do to win because their inputs are so fast.

For example, let's say a Falco multi-shines your shield and you SDI in your shield out of range of the second shine. The other player is already going to be able to react to that and stop himself from doing the second shine when his fingers are already moving on their own in order to perform such fast inputs.

On the other hand, you run into the same issue when you're trying to punish something like this. If you want to shield grab after you've SDI'd the first shine, you have to read right then and there whether he'll shine again or not. If you think he won't shine, you need to grab immediately after you're out of range of the second shine. But if you think he'll shine again, you need to wait a frame until that one is finished. I've spent a lot of time just running through all the scenarios in my head and it's like too much to keep track of lol.

 

[spider_sense]

anyone have netplay on dolphin? i run at 60-61 frames and havent checked the netplay yet. prolly look into it tomorrow if anyone wants to get some games in.

I wouldn't trust the latency with that; if one thing I've learned from playing SSF4 online is that connection issues can really screw with your button timing. And nothing beats looking at your opponent in the eyes after you hit them with a double wizard's foot spike....

 

[gmBottles]

Hey @ gmBottles are you the same J$ that was at TFC this past weekend? There was a J$ in my pool that played a Samus main and lost just before the Samus main had to play me. I was wondering if that was you or not.

Nah, I'm pretty sure there's another J$ who mains Falco. I've gotten a message on here for a Vegas crew battle from someone who thought I was him LOL

 

[gmBottles]

Ever experiment with wd out of shield? as long as you dont hold R/L too long that you end up shielding again out off the wd you can get away from being camped into a shield pressure game. I start resorting to this the more i notice my opponent pressuring me into shield.

Wd OoS is hard af with Bowser so I never really used it much. Now that I play a character that is actually, like, not ****... I'll start implementing that more

 

[Oldiz]

What do you guys think of nair? I have a friend who keeps telling me to just stick to uair or fair, but nair has some advantages over both of those. Nair is really strong if you hit with both kicks, even more damaging than dair in PAL, and its much quicker than fair. The downside of nair is its hitboxes are pretty lacking.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

OH WAIT I MEANT 70 FOR THE WHOLE WEEKEND ROFLLLLLLL

Okay, so what if I only stay Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night? Is it less?

 

[spider_sense]

Can anyone make a thread showing all the roster's (including Ganon's) roll duration? I want to be able to punish a predicted roll right before they can stand up and be able to do something.

 

[-ACE-]

Can anyone make a thread showing all the roster's (including Ganon's) roll duration? I want to be able to punish a predicted roll right before they can stand up and be able to do something.

These lists show the invincibility and the total lag frames of the rolls, but not the distance travelled or the size of the character while rolling.

The numbers before the slash (/) are the invincibility frames of the roll, and the number after the slash is the total number of frames taken to perform the roll. For example, Mario's forward roll takes 31 frames to perform, but he is only invincible between frames 4 and 19. This counts both forward and backward rolls, unless otherwise noted.

4-19 / 31

• Captain Falcon
• Donkey Kong
• Fox
• Kirby
• Luigi
• Mario
• Ness
• Peach
• Pikachu
• Ice Climbers
• Zelda
• Sheik
• Falco
• Dr. Mario
• Pichu
• Ganondorf

4-19 / 33

• Yoshi

2-18 / 34

• Jigglypuff (forward)

4-19 / 34

• Jigglypuff (backward)

4-19 / 35

• Mr. Game & Watch
• Marth
• Roy

4-21 / 37

• Mewtwo (forward)

4-19 / 37

• Link
• Mewtwo (backward)
• Young Link

4-19 / 39

• Bowser

4-30 / 44

• Samus

================================


This list shows the overall rankings for how far the characters roll in Melee, taken fromMew2King's Melee information dump.

Average of forward and back rolls
RankingCharacter
1Mewtwo
2Marth
3Samus
4Pichu
5Sheik
6Falco
7Roy
8Ganondorf
9Luigi
10Donkey Kong
11Link
12Pikachu
13Ice Climbers
14Captain Falcon
15Fox
16Zelda
17/18Dr. Mario/Mario
19Jigglypuff
20Ness
21Kirby
22Yoshi
23Peach
24Young Link
25Mr. Game & Watch
26Bowser


Forward rolls
RankingCharacter
1Mewtwo
2Marth
3Sheik
4Pichu
5Samus
6Falco
7Donkey Kong
8Ganondorf
9Roy
10Luigi
11Pikachu
12Link
13Ice Climbers
14Captain Falcon
15Fox
16Zelda
17/18Dr. Mario/Mario
19Jigglypuff
20Kirby
21Yoshi
22Peach
23Ness
24Bowser
25Young Link
26Mr. Game & Watch


Back rolls
RankingCharacter
1Mewtwo
2Marth
3Samus
4Falco
5Pichu
6Roy
7Sheik
8Ganondorf
9Luigi
10Link
11Ness
12Donkey Kong
13Ice Climbers
14Captain Falcon
15Fox
16Pikachu
17-18Dr. Mario/Mario
19Jigglypuff
20Zelda
21Kirby
22Yoshi
23Peach
24Young Link
25Mr. Game & Watch
26Bowser

Taken from smashwiki.

 

[spider_sense]

Dave, you are godlike.

 

[-ACE-]

Dave, you are godlike.

New Sig bodayyyyyyd

Lol

 

[Yung Scrap]

Is it possible to wavedash from the ledge with Ganondorf? I practice on the ledge on hyrule, but I can't get him to rise higher than the ledge to be able to actually slide onto the stage

 

[-ACE-]

Is it possible to wavedash from the ledge with Ganondorf? I practice on the ledge on hyrule, but I can't get him to rise higher than the ledge to be able to actually slide onto the stage

Yeah man, keep going until you're fast enough to get it. It's a mandatory tech to master.

 

[Yung Scrap]

Yeah man, keep going until you're fast enough to get it. It's a mandatory tech to master.

I can do it with spacies, but with ganon when I jump after dropping off of the ledge I don't gain enough height to air dodge on the stage

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, you have to jump IMMEDIATELY to get the height you need. Not many frames for error at all.

 

[Yung Scrap]

That's good to know. When I get that down, what airials are best when doing a ledge attack? I feel like Nair would be good because it comes out pretty fast

 

[Coastward]

@ RedmanSSBM my friends said theyd rather keep it so that everyone pays the same amount and it makes it easier to split it between people.

wouldnt be much cheaper without the friday night, probably like 5-10 dollars.