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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

why

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Just got back from the weekly. Although it was PM, i still learned a lot. I finally feel that I am beginning to break through a plateau in my playing, probably due to everything that I learned here. That being said, what is the best way to cover the tech away option? I found myself reading the techs, but being unable to follow up, due to Ganon's abysmal speed.

I have also concluded thay PM Sheik is just as bad as melee Sheik. Anything on the neutral of the sheik matchup in melee, specifically the neutral game, would be great.
 

PseudoTurtle

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@ Coastward Coastward ok, analyzing that first Marth match.

Right off the bat, you attempted to shield grab a nair... It can be done, but a lot of times, marths like to NOT fast fall it and cross you up. You can only shield grab if they do fast fall it. Anyway, after the cross up, they're going to do one of two things: dash away and grab you (the Ripple special) or fsmash you. Bair / dair will work for the dash away grab, and rolling behind / shielding and then wavedash oos will punish the fsmash. So begins the guessing game. Unfortunately for you, you shield grabbed and lost your stock.

Too much shielding. At 0:25, you weren't in that bad of a position. I know marth can be scary, but you're still at crouch cancel %, and he was waaaay too far to dair. If he fair'd / nair'd, it wouldn't be safe had you crouched. Either way, you stayed in shield and got grabbed.

I like what you're doing with side-b to counter nair. That's pretty good, I gotta implement that into my game lol.

At 0:42, he gave you a HUGE opportunity. He jumped into your up air range while you were shielding. I mean, **** man, when ganon is stuck in his shield, that's, like, the ONLY thing you're not supposed to do... and he did it. But instead of up airing, you chose to roll in. Rolling in is seldom a good option vs. marth- it can be good if you expect the fsmash, but he was aerial, so that's impossible. There are exceptions, but generally, you don't want to roll in vs. marth.

Careful with your off stage edge guards, but you knew this I'm sure. I do respect what you were going for, but it seemed to be a bit of a reach. It was pretty clear he wasn't going to go down and get hit by that, so sometimes it may be better to just bait him to center stage via early jump and then bair him, as seen here. I will say, though, that you reacted quite well by not fast falling the up air and making it so that the double jump alone could get you to the edge.

....... But he just fsmashed you right back off lmao. This is why I'm so fond of the empty RLD. If you were to instantly RLD, you would have had invincibility frames to get around the fsmash, and since fsmash is sooooo laggy, you could have then just done a regular waveland into grab. EZ$$. It's not like you could have predicted the fsmash, but the point of the empty RLD is to feel them out. Don't just go in there on a whim and a prayer; bait something dumb out of them. Patience.

Nice eikeldrop. I love that move to edge guard marth.

3 words: Combo. Video. FOOTAGE. Nicely done. Again, that side-b seems to be a fantastic counter to nair spam.

Ok, 1:24, you had to have known that this wouldn't hit lol. I can almost guarantee you, though, that if you'd have double jumped off the platform into an up air, you would have A) hit him and B) made it back to stage safely. I liked your air dodge recovery instead of up-b, but he was ready and, well, edge guarding ganon with marth isn't the hardest thing in the world.

Careful with up tilt. It's such an annoying move... the only moves that beat it have to be full hopped. Dumb as hell.

So, when he had his invincibility, you went to the side platform, directly underneath where he was gonna fall lol. There was no reason to be there, you just made it 10x easier for him to punish you. I like to gain center stage or camp the top platform during invincibility.

Overall, I think you played pretty well, but it's a tough life for ganon. Many times, you made just one crucial mistake and lost the stock. I love the marth matchup, but that's the one that (imo) really shows that one mistake can cost you the stock fairly easily.
 
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LightKaizo

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Charlotte, NC
@ RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM Next time we meet at a fest I want to talk to you about Ganondorf's matchups against spacies and other Ganondorf movement advice. I feel like it would help me advance alot more in my gameplay
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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@ RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM Next time we meet at a fest I want to talk to you about Ganondorf's matchups against spacies and other Ganondorf movement advice. I feel like it would help me advance alot more in my gameplay
Sure man, I'd be glad to. Don't know why you weren't at Matthew's Smashers on Saturday though, I would have talked to you a lot then. The fest at Logan's place was more for me to just have fun, but I still would have probably given advice if you asked. I'm sure I'll see you again soon though.
 

LightKaizo

Smash Rookie
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Jan 14, 2015
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Sure man, I'd be glad to. Don't know why you weren't at Matthew's Smashers on Saturday though, I would have talked to you a lot then. The fest at Logan's place was more for me to just have fun, but I still would have probably given advice if you asked. I'm sure I'll see you again soon though.
I cant go to some tourneys on Saturday due to religious reasons. I realized you just wanted to have fun so I was just chillin that day :p


Also just drew myself a new profile pic. I might do a raffle to draw one for someone else on the Ganondorf fourms :p
 

PseudoTurtle

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Slight change of pace here, but how many of you guys are knowledgeable in regards to doubles play? I never really was that into it until I teamed with me14k (who you old school guys may know) and had a lot of fun with it, so obviously my knowledge on teams is lacking due to inexperience.

Now that I want to take it a bit more seriously, what are some general tips for a ganon / peach team? Should we do 1v1 strats or team up on the stronger player and wall out the weaker one with ganon's / peach's strong moves? Etc. etc.

@ Divinokage Divinokage , you pretty frequently team with vwins, yea? What are your thoughts on the subject?
 

tm

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Slight change of pace here, but how many of you guys are knowledgeable in regards to doubles play? I never really was that into it until I teamed with me14k (who you old school guys may know) and had a lot of fun with it, so obviously my knowledge on teams is lacking due to inexperience.

Now that I want to take it a bit more seriously, what are some general tips for a ganon / peach team? Should we do 1v1 strats or team up on the stronger player and wall out the weaker one with ganon's / peach's strong moves? Etc. etc.

@ Divinokage Divinokage , you pretty frequently team with vwins, yea? What are your thoughts on the subject?
I consider myself pretty good at doubles. Kage's the man for that question though. I'll add some thoughts later.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Cool. So Ganon has a pseudo side-b ledge grab like in PM but only if he side-b's off randall at the right time. It seems really gimmicky to me, but it looks alright. Just a small little tool you could use. You could literally just run forward and double jump to the ledge and it'd be pretty much the same, except you'd actually be actionable lol.
 

tm

Smash Ace
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Slight change of pace here, but how many of you guys are knowledgeable in regards to doubles play? I never really was that into it until I teamed with me14k (who you old school guys may know) and had a lot of fun with it, so obviously my knowledge on teams is lacking due to inexperience.

Now that I want to take it a bit more seriously, what are some general tips for a ganon / peach team? Should we do 1v1 strats or team up on the stronger player and wall out the weaker one with ganon's / peach's strong moves? Etc. etc.

@ Divinokage Divinokage , you pretty frequently team with vwins, yea? What are your thoughts on the subject?
So I think that Peach/Ganon is pretty weird, not as good as Peach/Sheik or Fox/Ganon imo, but it can definitely be good. I've only teamed with a Peach seriously once or twice but here are my thoughts:

Pros:
- Both characters can wall / block an opponent out
- Insane sandwich combos, and both of you have no trouble getting kill hits
- You obliterate shields
- Peach can actually save ganon, and she never needs saving (good because ganon can't save her)
- Comboing / edgeguarding your team is a relatively slow process, giving your teammate time to come interrupt (as opposed to fastfallers)

Cons:
- You are both quite slow. It takes a long time for either of you to get across the stage (a big deal imo)
- You are both succeptible to getting walled out while your teammate gets double teamed, and you can't do much about it / force an engage safely (mostly ganon)
- Slow recoveries mean that the other teammate will get 2v1'd during this time
- 2v1 edgeguards can be quite awkward. Peach is very slow to grab ledge which is usually the go-to option for ganondorf's teammate. Proper peach/ganon double edgeguarding can definitely be figured out, but it's not intuitive and personally I don't know the best approach.
- Generally countered by Puff / Fox / Sheik / Falcon teams, which are common

So as far as gameplan goes, I'd try to eliminate / reduce the cons as much as possible and accentuate the pros.
- Work on walling out the 'support' or the better player, and try to sandwich the other guy as much as possible. Apply as much pressure when they are in that position.
- Work out your double edgeguards, and have the peach learn when to come save you, and how to do it safely
- Try to stay close together and avoid being isolated. Pick smaller stages against characters that are much faster than you.
- Prioritize getting the opponent offstage!!!
- Don't get run over in the 1v2 when your teammate is recovering. Learn how to stall through that time with various utilizations of shielding, rolling, jumping, and ledge invincibility, but be sure to block your opponents from hitting your recovering teammate when the time comes.

There's a lot more to it, and your skill as a doubles player is going to affect things more than how well you remember these things, but they're good guidelines and things to pay attention to.
 

PseudoTurtle

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Thanks tm, that actually helps a lot. One thing I think 14k needs to work on is saving me more. Yea, good call with the counters; I think you're dead on about that. We lost to a fox / sheik team last we played.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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YES I was in need of more ganon vids. Thank you, tm. I'll be sure to check those out later. I'd love to critique, but you're far better at the above matchups than I am. But I can give you a helping hand in the ones you lost for the hell of it.
 

RedmanSSBM

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Excellent footage @ tm tm . Really like all the Sheik play and your play vs Falco was really crisp, especially those upair edgeguards. Looking like a lil Linguini right there. I'll be happy to analyze that last set of you vs KJH in GF.
 

X WaNtEd X

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Awesome play tm.

As far criticism goes, you could be a little more efficient with your punishes on spacies off grabs at the higher percents. I saw you go for unnecessary dthrows when you could've closed out the stock with uthrow fair/bair. One other thing I saw was that you were sometimes a little passive when edgeguarding space animals when they were in their fire animation close to the stage.
 

Tribulation

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I was messing around the other day and I found out that when sheik is around 50%, still need to test this a little more, you can combo down throw into side B and then follow up with at least an up air. I don't know how high in % this would go before sheik could just double jump out, or until you have no follow ups after the side B, but I was think that since sheik can escape the chain grab on battlefield to the side platforms around 60%, you could use the side B at 50% and then hit them off stage with the up air. I can't think of any other stage this could really be useful other then FOD if the platforms where in the right position.
I just thought that I would share this. It could be a little useful.
 

PseudoTurtle

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YO @ tm tm

I'm gonna do a full critique later, but I wanted to point something out because I see this kind of thing happen too often. TOO OFTEN, GANONS.

Here, at 8:20, you did a bair, which he air dodged through and you missed the L-Cancel (although that's not really important for this).


Tm, if you're not familiar with @ -ACE- -ACE- 's old tech chasing thread (which Magus raided and added all the awesome gifs), you should give it a peep. Because there's a section there for an auto-cancelled bair into regrab for a tech chase, but it also works to cover:

1) whatever you were going for
2) air dodge
3) roll (if you hit their shield and then they roll, it's, like, 90% guaranteed you'll get the grab. If they roll before you're able to hit their shield, sometimes they're dumb and will still be in shield, but that's not as likely)

What you should have done here was definitely the AC bair (SH, quick bair, fast fall - it will auto cancel if the bair comes out fast enough) because air dodging through was really unsafe. Imagine instead of losing your stock, you had the chance to take his, or at the very least, tack on a good amount of percent.

Not trying to single you out here, but like I said- I see this way too often (and I'm guilty of it too), and it's gotta stop.

More critique coming later.
 
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Coastward

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holy **** dude, i love your play and i can't place my finger on why.

i watched the set against nebs in loser semi's. you definitely had that set, i could tell you knew that too from your reaction after the first match. he plays so recklessly so there's a lot of things you can punish on his side.

i kinda skimmed through it, but the main reason why i think you lost is because you dropped like, 3423590273501293 edgeguards.

i can tell you really like tipman, but sometimes it just wouldn't work for you. many times you coulda just ended a stock with a bair but you were stubborn and went for uair. just watch those sets over and think about what you should've done instead of uair. i'll watch more of it later tonight, but good **** :)
 

RedmanSSBM

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holy **** dude, i love your play and i can't place my finger on why.

i watched the set against nebs in loser semi's. you definitely had that set, i could tell you knew that too from your reaction after the first match. he plays so recklessly so there's a lot of things you can punish on his side.

i kinda skimmed through it, but the main reason why i think you lost is because you dropped like, 3423590273501293 edgeguards.

i can tell you really like tipman, but sometimes it just wouldn't work for you. many times you coulda just ended a stock with a bair but you were stubborn and went for uair. just watch those sets over and think about what you should've done instead of uair. i'll watch more of it later tonight, but good **** :)
Haha thanks man. I will agree that my missed edgeguards were a big weak point for me in those matches vs Nebs. I'll definitely be studying these vids to see how I can change my thinking process during those situations. I'm definitely valuing footage of me playing more than ever now, as looking at how I play really allows me to be able to figure out what I need to change in order to optimize my play, especially with my better understanding of the game.

LOL Yeah Ace my name produces some weird results sometimes lol.
 

tm

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So close. You could improve your edgeguards vs falcon a LOT. If your punish and edgeguards were slightly better, you would have won. Also try using crouch cancel a lot more in neutral vs falcon. If he has the option to fade out of uair range, just bair instead.

Thanks dude, keep it coming. Not sure what exactly I was trying to cover in that situation. Made a lot of mistakes in that ~5 seconds lol. I have read the thread and I've used that option coverage for tech chases before (although it is VERY difficult to execute properly), and I've never thought about applying it to neutral / pressuring / covering rolls. Nice.
 

PseudoTurtle

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I wouldn't say its thaaaat difficult to execute properly, you just do everything as quickly as possible. The hard part for me is reacting properly to the tech roll- when they tech in, its easy, but the tech in place is hard to get the jab guarantee
 

tm

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I wouldn't say its thaaaat difficult to execute properly, you just do everything as quickly as possible. The hard part for me is reacting properly to the tech roll- when they tech in, its easy, but the tech in place is hard to get the jab guarantee
I thought you were referring to the 3/4 option coverage by using AC bair to cover no tech + tech in place and JC grab to cover tech in? Timing the jump, the bair, and the fastfall to cover tech in place and no tech is very difficult imo, not to mention you have to be at a specific spacing for it and the jc grab to both work.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Nah it's not hard, and not hard to space.

To AC bair you just bair ASAP out of the sh and fastfall ASAP. Then just dash + jc grab if they roll through you. As long as the bair is kinda close to a tipper you're fine.

There are lots of ways to set it up, but it's generally a good substitute to dair for tech in place when their percent is too high for dair combos.
 

Coastward

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got 9th at a weekly.

getting drunk ****s with my reaction, so i lost because all my l cancels were off. definitely coulda got 5th, but oh well, i had a good time and have stuff to work on again.

random ****ing question, but how should i be DIing against link?
 
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