Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

The other year when I lived in NY, several players tried to tell me never to roll or spot dodge ever. It's definitely a trend among a lot of players these days for some reason.

 

[Yort]

Thats because these players refuse to spot dodge or roll so itll work a lot. Jab to delay Dair is pretty mean too lol.

Can someone explain to me more about how jab to delay dair works?

I remember once when watching linguini's vods I saw him jab and then read roll in with stomp and I've emulated roll reads after jab a bunch but I don't think this is what you are talking about.

Wouldn't this only work if they jump out of shield, Jab and then dair as they're jumping/rolling out of shield?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Can someone explain to me more about how jab to delay dair works?

I remember once when watching linguini's vods I saw him jab and then read roll in with stomp and I've emulated roll reads after jab a bunch but I don't think this is what you are talking about.

Wouldn't this only work if they jump out of shield, Jab and then dair as they're jumping/rolling out of shield?

I believe he's talking about the dair you do after a missed tech that pops them back into the air. You do this by dairing just as the fast faller is hitting the ground from the no-tech bounce. It will send them into the air because they will be read as if they are on the ground and then you can follow up with a move, even if they DI correctly.

Pretty sure this is called the Kage combo or something, but I know Kage is really good at doing it cause he's got that timing down.

 

[-ACE-]

The other year when I lived in NY, several players tried to tell me never to roll or spot dodge ever. It's definitely a trend among a lot of players these days for some reason.

Spot dodge is a decent mixup, rarely a superb option. Ganons roll is too good though

 

[Bwmat]

ganon's roll is amazing.

or maybe it's just that I'm comparing it to his other options...

 

[-ACE-]

Nah it's good enough to actuality be good.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

How do you practice wall teching? I already tech the wall ALOT but I wanna tech it like Rockcrock does, doing it 100% of the time. And what is the frame window to do a pivot aerial?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

How do you practice wall teching? I already tech the wall ALOT but I wanna tech it like Rockcrock does, doing it 100% of the time. And what is the frame window to do a pivot aerial?

You put a motion sensor bomb on the edge of the stage and try to recover to the ledge. I don't know the frame window, but I know the timing pretty well now after practicing it with this method.

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.twitch.tv/vermontmelee/b/653767448?t=4m17s see this why downtilt is ridiculous vs fastfallers at low % lol.

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.twitch.tv/vermontmelee/b/653767448?t=10m41s Also ending Sheiks ftw.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

http://www.twitch.tv/vermontmelee/b/653767448?t=4m17s see this why downtilt is ridiculous vs fastfallers at low % lol.[/q

2 times, showing that consistency, sponsors like that B). Also how would any of you practice power shielding lasers? I wanna be more consistent at those to, and platform cancelling

 

[RedmanSSBM]

How do you practice wall teching? I already tech the wall ALOT but I wanna tech it like Rockcrock does, doing it 100% of the time. And what is the frame window to do a pivot aerial?

You can set a lvl 9 Game and Watch to fight you on whatever stage, cause he always will attack you at the edge instead of always trying to grab.

http://www.twitch.tv/vermontmelee/b/653767448?t=4m17s see this why downtilt is ridiculous vs fastfallers at low % lol.

I like the use of the slant to make the dtilt go low. I should remember to use that on YS.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You put a motion sensor bomb on the edge of the stage and try to recover to the ledge. I don't know the frame window, but I know the timing pretty well now after practicing it with this method.

Ah, yes, the bl@ck Chris method. This is decent practice for doing against spacies fsmash / dsmash or marth dtilt (tough) / fsmash etc. Honestly, the tech window is HUGE. I only practiced this way for a bit because it's not really that difficult. My trick is to do everything on an "inner clock" if that makes sense. What I mean by that is you push up-b, hug the wall (this is important), push R / L, and then twist the control stick one notch like this:

-->

ALL on a timer. Count 1-2-3 in your head at an EVEN pace. At 1, you up-b, at 2, you push R / L, and at 3, you move the control stick. The timing is that lenient for the tech.

@ YvngFlameHoe
Now, if you're talking about the RockCrock, that's even easier- you can base it all on reaction. Like I said, the window for tech opportunities is gigantic. Push R / L as soon as you get hugged by either falcon or ganon and you'll tech it every time. It might seem like you're doing it too early, but I promise you'll tech it.

Regarding the pivot aerial: you'll pivot automatically. You can't pivot any move besides B / side B midair, so just pushing the c-stick in the direction of your opponent after the wall tech will guarantee it's a fair. You also get your double jump back after being hugged by ganon / falcon, so even if you're well below stage, go for the fair because you will recover.

@Moy regarding Azzu: he's getting really ****ing good. I wouldn't be surprised if he became one of the top 10 Chicago players within the next six months. Out of the last 4 sets we've played, I've only won one of them (it was a hell of a win though, if I do say so myself). We played at the tournament on Saturday and he beat me 2-1 in pools and that was before I started drinking, so it's a legit win lol.

I can look at your video later too to give you tips if you want.

@ Divinokage nice dtilt gimp. I actually learned that from Ian and started incorporating it into my game. It's a bit risky because of the cool down time, so if you miss, they can ledge hop and punish you usually, but the reward is pretty huge.




ATTENTION ALL GANONS: SPEAKING OF DTILT... None of you seem to think this is a legit thing besides @ spider_sense , but up throw --> dtilt --> fair is such a legit combo on fast fallers. It's a DI mixup. They think you're gonna go for an up air or something, so they DI in for survival. Little do they know that you're gonna dtilt, so when they do, you dtilt and go for the fair.

I was playing friendlies with my buddy who mains falcon, and in one single match, I got up throw --> dtilt --> first hit nair --> fair all because he was DI'ing in. I knew he was a smart player and that he would take note of why that combo worked, so I up threw him again on a different stock, knowing that this time, he would DI out to avoid that combo... so I threw out a fair instead and he got blasted off the side of the screen because of his good combo DI.

It's an insanely good DI mixup, guys. How can you dismiss it and say no to early kills? Y'all are crazy. I'm gonna dtilt all you ******* until you get it.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah he needs to be holding some form of away, and switch to survival DI when he sees the fair coming. Basically what we do against falcon (always looking out for the knee). Up and slightly away combo DI almost escapes anything.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

@ PseudoTurtle I meant pivot an aerial on the ground not after a tech

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Tournament vid, WSF from Saturday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCjraMUWifY

Sorry for potato, the memory was full on the recording setup so the TO was emptying it, didn't have time to wait for it to finish so I just used my phone for WSFs

I was playing so bad all day, probably shouldn't have got 2nd tbh but w/e lol. Definitely shouldn't have won this set.

There are more vids coming, I'll post them after the TO uploads them.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ PseudoTurtle I meant pivot an aerial on the ground not after a tech

Ohhh. Lol uh idk, just put the control stick in that direction?

Not sure what people mean by pivoting aerials, I'm pretty sure pivoting grounded attacks is the only hard tech. I've never had a problem just tapping the control stick in whatever direction and throwing out an aerial of choice.

 

[-ACE-]

Truth. Pivot bair is still underused despite how easy it is.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Truth. Pivot bair is still underused despite how easy it is.

And how do I do a pivot bair?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

And how do I do a pivot bair?

Pivoting aerials is easy dude. Literally just tap the control stick as long as you aren't in a full on run animation. So, if you're standing still, in a dash dance, or (my personal favorite) after a waveland.

Waveland pivot bair is actually a legit approach by the way.

 

[-ACE-]

Facing forward, just hit forward, back, jump+ forward together, immediate bair and ff asap for ac. Space while midair as necessary.

Faster than a fair every time

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Pivoting aerials is easy dude. Literally just tap the control stick as long as you aren't in a full on run animation. So, if you're standing still, in a dash dance, or (my personal favorite) after a waveland.

Waveland pivot bair is actually a legit approach by the way.

So lets say im facing right, I waveland, push the stick to the left, jump, then bair

 

[PseudoTurtle]

So lets say im facing right, I waveland, push the stick to the left, jump, then bair

Yessir, hold the stick for juuuust a little longer than you normally would. As if you were pivoting a jab. Do that and you'll pivot no problem.

I like waveland --> moonwalk bair too. It's flashy, a bit of a gimmick, but, like everything else, use it as a mixup and it'll work. Example

 

[n0ne]

@eikelmann
Return ur tag to english plz.

U have been avenged buddy. i 3-1ed zeb in a mm at nebs this weekend in your name

 

[-ACE-]

You can also tap back mid waveland and then hit forward and bair it'll come out deceivingly quick.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yort, Jab---> grab is escapable but you'd be surprised how many high level players get caught by it. Don't hit in between the grab into a quick dthrow to throw off their reaction time and get that other grab. Jab grab is best utilized after a low percent pop up stomp or another grab.

Here's an example straight from Linguini's combo video: https://youtu.be/sNaYqQOpLNk?t=8m6s

 

[tm]

How do you practice wall teching? I already tech the wall ALOT but I wanna tech it like Rockcrock does, doing it 100% of the time. And what is the frame window to do a pivot aerial?

Plenty of ways to practice teching. Motion sensor bomb in training mode works fine. There are a bunch of ways in 20XX. This video explains the mechanics of teching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo

Pivoting always has a 1 frame window.

http://www.twitch.tv/vermontmelee/b/653767448?t=10m41s Also ending Sheiks ftw.

sick, I'll be doing that soon

ATTENTION ALL GANONS: SPEAKING OF DTILT... None of you seem to think this is a legit thing besides @ spider_sense , but up throw --> dtilt --> fair is such a legit combo on fast fallers. It's a DI mixup. They think you're gonna go for an up air or something, so they DI in for survival. Little do they know that you're gonna dtilt, so when they do, you dtilt and go for the fair.

I was playing friendlies with my buddy who mains falcon, and in one single match, I got up throw --> dtilt --> first hit nair --> fair all because he was DI'ing in. I knew he was a smart player and that he would take note of why that combo worked, so I up threw him again on a different stock, knowing that this time, he would DI out to avoid that combo... so I threw out a fair instead and he got blasted off the side of the screen because of his good combo DI.

It's an insanely good DI mixup, guys. How can you dismiss it and say no to early kills? Y'all are crazy. I'm gonna dtilt all you *****es until you get it.

No hate, I just don't like upthrow to begin with and don't really use it enough to experiment with DI mixups after it. Also I'm willing to bet that there's a very small % window in which dtilt hits them before they hit the ground AND they can't jump out before it comes out. And idk why your friend didn't jump away from the uthrow fair lol. Yes these gimmicks can hit people really hard, but typically I'm not losing to anyone who doesn't understand how to get out of this kind of stuff.

And how do I do a pivot bair?

1. Be dashing in one direction, holding control stick that way
2. Next frame, have the control stick in the opposite direction
3. Next frame, press jump button (or hit up on joystick, much harder). Joystick can be anywhere you want.
On one of the frames of your jump (2nd to last I think, but could be third to last or the last frame, don't exactly remember) the position of your joystick will determine your initial horizontal velocity when you jump.
Once you're in the air hit c-stick to bair.
More related info in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY3XugmyMow
This stuff is less applicable for ganon because his movement is ass, but still good to know imo.

 

[SmashFactionNC]

Who is the absolute best counter pick for him?! Marth? I can't beat the Ganon!!!

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon is unbeatable.

 

[Bwmat]

Fox/shiek followed by falco IMO

Peach is also annoying

 

[Coastward]

Here's an example straight from Linguini's combo video: https://youtu.be/sNaYqQOpLNk?t=8m6s

man, seeing things like this make me feel like such a scrub LOL. why did i never think of this...

 

[PseudoTurtle]

No hate, I just don't like upthrow to begin with and don't really use it enough to experiment with DI mixups after it. Also I'm willing to bet that there's a very small % window in which dtilt hits them before they hit the ground AND they can't jump out before it comes out. And idk why your friend didn't jump away from the uthrow fair lol. Yes these gimmicks can hit people really hard, but typically I'm not losing to anyone who doesn't understand how to get out of this kind of stuff.

The window is pretty large, actually. Ganon's up throw for some reason has a lot of hit stun (or whatever you call it out of a grab). Jumping out wouldn't do much for up throw --> fair either IMO, just because I don't think you can jump out of up throw --> fair at certain percents. You have to DI the up throw behind or way forward to avoid the fair, somewhat similar to up throw --> knee. Now, why he didn't DI before is the question because, you're right, he should have been expecting the up throw.

It's basically just the darkrain combo. It works with falcon and it works with his better double.

You say you're not losing to anyone who doesn't understand this stuff, but nobody's ever really tried this besides myself and spidey. It's not simple understanding of the mechanisms of DI, it's a legit mixup, I'm telling you. No different from first hit nair mixups. Spidey actually experimented with it on gravy and it worked. Twice, if I'm remembering correctly... and gravy's no scrub.

Oh, and it's worked on the likes of ORLY and kels. Lol kels's reaction to getting pummeled is too funny.

This is all suggestion, as it seems to be a pretty new DI mixup on the up throw, so take it all with a grain of salt. I just like killing the fast fallers off a grab at 60%.

edit: @ Coastward is your location a reference to Sonic Adventure 2? If so, nice.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So guys, I was able to find a janky application for the extra intangibility that Ganon gains when he does a ledgehop after a sweet-spotted up-b. On Battlefield, if you do a ledgehop fair and keep holding forward, and then up-b to sweetspot the edge, wait to hear Ganon grab the ledge and react by doing a ledge-hop. You'll notice that you land on stage significantly sooner than normal, and you retain all that juicy intangibility. This means you can do a fully intangible ftilt, fsmash, dmash, waveland, down-b startup, side-b startup, etc.

I've been practicing it for the past 30 minutes or so and it's totally doable in real time. Wicked stuff. It's a hell of a gimmick though, cause once your opponent sees that you try to do that, he can just ledgehog you. I would think the fair might intimidate him from getting close to the ledge, but trust me, once someone knows how this works it will be easy to beat. It can surprise the **** out of your opponent though.

Thank you based @Kadano for providing that information a while back. This isn't the best application but dammit it's something lol.

 

[Coastward]

The window is pretty large, actually. Ganon's up throw for some reason has a lot of hit stun (or whatever you call it out of a grab). Jumping out wouldn't do much for up throw --> fair either IMO, just because I don't think you can jump out of up throw --> fair at certain percents. You have to DI the up throw behind or way forward to avoid the fair, somewhat similar to up throw --> knee. Now, why he didn't DI before is the question because, you're right, he should have been expecting the up throw.

You say you're not losing to anyone who doesn't understand this stuff, but nobody's ever really tried this besides myself and spidey. It's not simple understanding of the mechanisms of DI, it's a legit mixup, I'm telling you. No different from first hit nair mixups. Spidey actually experimented with it on gravy and it worked. Twice, if I'm remembering correctly... and gravy's no scrub.

Oh, and it's worked on the likes of ORLY and kels. Lol kels's reaction to getting pummeled is too funny.

This is all suggestion, as it seems to be a pretty new DI mixup on the up throw, so take it all with a grain of salt. I just like killing the fast fallers off a grab at 60%.

edit: @ Coastward is your location a reference to Sonic Adventure 2? If so, nice.

yea it is lmao

 

[Zigludo]

I would go purple at first but I switched to red at the beginning of this year out of respect for @ spider_sense @ L Linguini Mr. brandondorf @iRanch and Eddy.
Blue is on lock imo with @Bizzarro Flame @ PseudoTurtle @Эикельманн [РУС] and @Renth
Green is @ Divinokage @ RedmanSSBM @ tm and @ X WaNtEd X i think
Neutral is @ n0ne @ -ACE- Thomas Tipman @Moy and i think @ Coastward right
Red as far as I can think of is @WhatIsFear Loki FuzzyLemons @ YvngFlameHoe and I guess @SFAT lol
Idk what @ B Bwmat @Superspright or @ Zigludo is
I'd like to chip in as well.
I've been thinking about going to the Showdown at UVA on May 9th.
Probably the biggest tourney I've considered going to besides the weekly I usually go to.
One of these days I'm gonna try to make the trek to Xanadu.
Right now my goal is to go to Apex next year and with the new job I'm working I might try to go to other big tournaments this year if I can plan in advance.

Happy Hunting out there Ganonites.

I play green Ganon btw lol

 

[Coastward]

oh **** i just saw that post

i main red ganon now, did it for the yung homie LOKI.

 

[-ACE-]

I'll likely go red from now on, it was always my second color next to default.

 

[spider_sense]

I'll likely go red from now on, it was always my second color next to default.

Ace you can ignore me all you want whenever I say "I'm winning your color back" It's going to happen, you'll be playing default Ganon by the end of Friday night. Guaranteed. @Blea Gelo One condition: You have to bring that silver controller lol it's too godlike.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Ah, yes, the bl@ck Chris method. This is decent practice for doing against spacies fsmash / dsmash or marth dtilt (tough) / fsmash etc. Honestly, the tech window is HUGE. I only practiced this way for a bit because it's not really that difficult. My trick is to do everything on an "inner clock" if that makes sense. What I mean by that is you push up-b, hug the wall (this is important), push R / L, and then twist the control stick one notch like this:

-->

ALL on a timer. Count 1-2-3 in your head at an EVEN pace. At 1, you up-b, at 2, you push R / L, and at 3, you move the control stick. The timing is that lenient for the tech.

That's hella weird. What I do is press R and X at the same time and then I SDI in. After that I mash the cstick or up-b so I can get off the bair or hug asap.

ATTENTION ALL GANONS: SPEAKING OF DTILT... None of you seem to think this is a legit thing besides @ spider_sense , but up throw --> dtilt --> fair is such a legit combo on fast fallers. It's a DI mixup. They think you're gonna go for an up air or something, so they DI in for survival. Little do they know that you're gonna dtilt, so when they do, you dtilt and go for the fair.

I was playing friendlies with my buddy who mains falcon, and in one single match, I got up throw --> dtilt --> first hit nair --> fair all because he was DI'ing in. I knew he was a smart player and that he would take note of why that combo worked, so I up threw him again on a different stock, knowing that this time, he would DI out to avoid that combo... so I threw out a fair instead and he got blasted off the side of the screen because of his good combo DI.

It's an insanely good DI mixup, guys. How can you dismiss it and say no to early kills? Y'all are crazy. I'm gonna dtilt all you *****es until you get it.

That sounds really ****ing good. I am totally trying that out. Around what percents will that work?

The window is pretty large, actually. Ganon's up throw for some reason has a lot of hit stun (or whatever you call it out of a grab). Jumping out wouldn't do much for up throw --> fair either IMO, just because I don't think you can jump out of up throw --> fair at certain percents. You have to DI the up throw behind or way forward to avoid the fair, somewhat similar to up throw --> knee. Now, why he didn't DI before is the question because, you're right, he should have been expecting the up throw.

It's basically just the darkrain combo. It works with falcon and it works with his better double.

You say you're not losing to anyone who doesn't understand this stuff, but nobody's ever really tried this besides myself and spidey. It's not simple understanding of the mechanisms of DI, it's a legit mixup, I'm telling you. No different from first hit nair mixups. Spidey actually experimented with it on gravy and it worked. Twice, if I'm remembering correctly... and gravy's no scrub.

Oh, and it's worked on the likes of ORLY and kels. Lol kels's reaction to getting pummeled is too funny.

This is all suggestion, as it seems to be a pretty new DI mixup on the up throw, so take it all with a grain of salt. I just like killing the fast fallers off a grab at 60%.

edit: @ Coastward is your location a reference to Sonic Adventure 2? If so, nice.

So what would you do if they DI behind? Bair?

 

[Divinokage]

@ Divinokage nice dtilt gimp. I actually learned that from Ian and started incorporating it into my game. It's a bit risky because of the cool down time, so if you miss, they can ledge hop and punish you usually, but the reward is pretty huge.

Its not risky at all if you read the jump.. thats why he got punished twice by it. If it still works go for the early Falco kill, its pretty much needed in this matchup. You have to kill Falco really fast.