CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
I agree with you that he goes even with everyone that you mentioned except Marth. That is one match-up that I just can't figure out at all, and that's probably my fault. I have 0 Marth practice in my area that is relevant. Marth seems to have what we have but just more of it. Better spacing tools, better dash-dance, better grab, etc. Marth can be interrupted and whatnot, but if he just sticks to perfectly spaced dtilts, and grab he can rack up that crucial 30% so CC becomes useless.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I was really selective with what I called even in that post.... "not quite even" means very close to even lol. But yeah I think Samus wins barely, especially after talking to Plup about the matchup at last CEO.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Note to self: Don't enter a tournament that you're helping to TO, you won't be able to get through the gauntlet of Foxes in your pool.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lol, damn. Gotta be warm vs fox.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I was always under the impression that ganon bodied samus pretty hard. After learning the matchup, its not often I lose to samus players. Samus is kinda like ganon in a lot of ways: lots of gimmicks and if you can see through them, you shouldn't really be losing.
I also thought ganon / jiggs was pretty even aside from the obvious edge guarding advantage that jiggs has, but I've only ever played one good jiggs player, so I'm not certain about that.
Marth should also be moved down to not quite even IMO. Easy to combo, easy to edge guard, good punishes when he screws up, and good counter attacks etc. Just don't crouch cancel his dair.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Enough talking about what ****ing matchup is even and what ****ing matchup is not. That is not the point of this thread. If we're going to discuss matchups, it better be on how we can beat certain players in our region and learning how to overcome the obstacles that these certain matchups will provide. Let's study more videos, point out specific examples, strategize how to beat a gimmick or a specific style of play. That's what we should be doing instead of just waving our ***** around and discussing theories and concepts that don't actually help us improve at the game.
/vent
/vent
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Nah Ganon doesn't wreck Samus. Long and tedious matchup that's boring and mentally taxing. She's got more speed and more useable tilts and smash attacks. And there's having a good recovery (she's hard to edgeguard at top level) and a projectile.
Jiggs usually wins neutral vs Ganon easily through her aerial mobility and camping. Sucks cause the entire matchup is neutral game basically (there's hardly any way to edgeguard him) Also a boring and tedious matchup.
Marth, ehh. Ground speed and range.
Jiggs usually wins neutral vs Ganon easily through her aerial mobility and camping. Sucks cause the entire matchup is neutral game basically (there's hardly any way to edgeguard him) Also a boring and tedious matchup.
Marth, ehh. Ground speed and range.
Don't you remember?!?!?!
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
There is literally nothing wrong with the above discussion. You know, you can study videos etc, talk about beating certain players, whatever AND discuss other ****. I'm glad this is an active thread.
LOLLL I remember this. I can agree with you on certain points regarding Samus, but I would say that the matchup is very stage dependent at worse. Harder on stadium and dream land than, for example, yoshi's or battlefield. She also can't edge guard ganon very well either, unlike most characters. Recover into the stage and all she can do is fsmash you the other way or dsmash you back off. Both are DI'able.
Jiggs, you've got a point. I play that matchup very weirdly, probably incorrectly, so I didn't really base it on that much.
Marth, to me at least, definitely has the ground speed, but the range isn't that difficult to get around. I will say, though, that you have to kinda guess which move they will come at you with because there's a lot of rock-paper-scissors here.
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Gotem City Vigilante
Invincible ledgehop nair eats Ganon up if he manages to down-b between the missiles lol, I think every character can edgeguard him well. But I agree with everything else.
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PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Very true, if you're recovering from below stage. But if you recover high, there's actually not a whole lot of guaranteed stuff that Samus can do. Ripple taught me this and then got frustrated that he couldn't edge guard me as well anymore lol
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Nair, utilt, low ftilt? Wd back > Fsmash hug attempts? Ganon gets rekt offstage.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Hmm. In theory, that should be true, yea. But in my experience, recovering high (I'm talking falcon-esque here) vs. Samus usually gets me a safe ish recovery. Vs. Ripple and other local Samus mains.
When I think about it though, yea, even a bair should be pretty guaranteed. Maybe all the Chicago Samus mains just suck at edge guarding ganon lol.
When I think about it though, yea, even a bair should be pretty guaranteed. Maybe all the Chicago Samus mains just suck at edge guarding ganon lol.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lol maybe. The south definitely has some good Samus players. They can charged dsmash you if you up-b over them, and you're back offstage (although sometimes not by much) and turned around which is a pain. Ganon has the tools to beat a lot of her approaches and gimmicks, but at top level I think the one winning neutral more often matters a lot, and thus, speed (and projectiles). Not saying it's a bad matchup though, lol.
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Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
To add to what you're saying...I feel that it also matters how strong the punish game is. Samus' is arguably stronger with her unique strings and follow-ups. Ganondorf just punches ****. Still feels evenish though.
Orah
Smash Cadet
I've managed to gain some tech skill but still kinda struggle with applying it properly. Gotta get more consistent at RLD and L-Cancels.
Against more experienced players I just get bopped cuz my fundamentals are teh suck. I can tell that they don't really practice tech but I guess my approaches are too predictable and I flub stuff up. Just gotta be more consciencous about players habits.
I know approaches have to be mixed up and alot of the failures is on me for having poor spacing or missed l-cancels and then getting impatient and using specials. Whenever I go for JC grabs they always spot-dodge so maybe I have to try to waveland-moonwalk grab more? Probably gotta implement empty hops into tomahawk grab.
Against Falco I know I have to focus on trying wavedash out of shield more maybe even waveland oss?
Against Sheik I know @Ace said the best punish is to grab her but I'm having trouble getting the grabs.
Against Fox I'm unsure how I should try to counter- his nair shine approach.
Against Marth I can't seem to edgeguard him but I probably just need more practice with waveland moonwalking to the ledge and up-air or back airing.
Lately I've been trying to approach with platform waveland aerials but I probably need to try to sh waveland the ground and grab/jab/f-tilt.
If someone's on battlefields top platform have yall tried full hopping upair dj upair to an edge canceled up-b (just in case you miss the grab). I was just thinking about it because I know a good Samus tries edge canceling their up-bs to avoid being in a vulnerable state. Maybe shield dropping ****s on this idea but I thought it might be worth bringing up but it's probably too much of a gimmick. I guess if you get the grab it's 17% but you can't really follow up on it, unless there is way to edge cancel the special lag. Also idk if yall knew this but after you get the grab of the up-b you can down b after instead of just up-bing. ( Probably not that useful lol)
Also what's the best punish for a spot-dodge when you are on level ground with your opponent? Down-smash? Jab to dash attack?
Appreciate all the advice I can get.
Happy Easter Ganonites!
Against more experienced players I just get bopped cuz my fundamentals are teh suck. I can tell that they don't really practice tech but I guess my approaches are too predictable and I flub stuff up. Just gotta be more consciencous about players habits.
I know approaches have to be mixed up and alot of the failures is on me for having poor spacing or missed l-cancels and then getting impatient and using specials. Whenever I go for JC grabs they always spot-dodge so maybe I have to try to waveland-moonwalk grab more? Probably gotta implement empty hops into tomahawk grab.
Against Falco I know I have to focus on trying wavedash out of shield more maybe even waveland oss?
Against Sheik I know @Ace said the best punish is to grab her but I'm having trouble getting the grabs.
Against Fox I'm unsure how I should try to counter- his nair shine approach.
Against Marth I can't seem to edgeguard him but I probably just need more practice with waveland moonwalking to the ledge and up-air or back airing.
Lately I've been trying to approach with platform waveland aerials but I probably need to try to sh waveland the ground and grab/jab/f-tilt.
If someone's on battlefields top platform have yall tried full hopping upair dj upair to an edge canceled up-b (just in case you miss the grab). I was just thinking about it because I know a good Samus tries edge canceling their up-bs to avoid being in a vulnerable state. Maybe shield dropping ****s on this idea but I thought it might be worth bringing up but it's probably too much of a gimmick. I guess if you get the grab it's 17% but you can't really follow up on it, unless there is way to edge cancel the special lag. Also idk if yall knew this but after you get the grab of the up-b you can down b after instead of just up-bing. ( Probably not that useful lol)
Also what's the best punish for a spot-dodge when you are on level ground with your opponent? Down-smash? Jab to dash attack?
Appreciate all the advice I can get.
Happy Easter Ganonites!
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
The edge cancelled up-b is hard to do consistently, and yeah shield dropping can put an end to that gimmick.
Sh, non-ff dair is good when you know they'll spot dodge, as is dsmash.
Sh, non-ff dair is good when you know they'll spot dodge, as is dsmash.
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
I think moonwalk dash-attack is sometimes good as a mix-up if you don't wanna go for the waveland grab.
Edge-canceling up-b is super important on Yoshi's but on other stages is really hard. He seems to lose momentum once he starts dropping. I need to look at it more in AR because I bet his stage contact box gets wonky.
Edge-canceling up-b is super important on Yoshi's but on other stages is really hard. He seems to lose momentum once he starts dropping. I need to look at it more in AR because I bet his stage contact box gets wonky.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Word. I forgot about method to beat predictable spot-dodges. I've been falling for them a lot. I'm wondering what else I could do as Marth to punish spot-dodges...
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Yeah I agree on the recovering high.
At lower percents, a good recovery strategy is to first try for the low recovery. On the off-chance they mess up, you get the ledge. However, what's most likely going to happen is they will be forced to ledge hop nair you. You get hit kind of high up, and they often start setting up again as if you're going to recover low. That's when I'll go high, but I'll be high enough so that I can do things like pretend to go for a platform and drop through or go for an edge cancel or something along those lines. This makes it very hard for Samus to position herself to get a smash attack off. Most likely, I'll either get off scot free or she'll just hit me with an aerial that doesn't send me very far as I'm already onstage again.
At higher percents, I always try to go high when possible. Ledge hop nair is a death sentence at that point. Might as well make her work a bit more for the kill. If the player has been consistently dropping low recoveries, however, I'll just go low again no matter what.
Well I don't tend to be looking for more setups against people that only DI in... lol
ok yeah it's a mixup. But I won't be needing it at that % for long... I have a better punish in mind
Yeah dair and dsmash are nice, as well as grab. With marth you probably just want to grab, or upB if they're at that high %.
Renth
Smash Hero
Pure Focus
Attachments
Coastward
Smash Lord
looks like youre about to kill someone bro LOL
Renth
Smash Hero
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Mark what happened to your left hand?
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
He faired somebody in real lifeMark what happened to your left hand?
Renth
Smash Hero
I've been having wrist issues lately, I think work related. I placed 4th at an event I usually get 1st / 2nd at. I played pretty terribly that dayMark what happened to your left hand?
I'm taking a month away from competitive gaming right now.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
Can anybody link me a video for hand excercises? and don't tell me to masturbate
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Coastward
Smash Lord
masturbate.
Master Bait
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Experimenting with using hedge hop wizard kick to edge guard someone landing in range of the reverse hit box. It's like a poor man's ledge hop knee. Thoughts?
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I would think not fast enough. I use it VERY occasionally against opponents who spam spot dodge or something stupid, otherwise I'd say the grab is better.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
The burn means its working, bruh
Laharl's_Wrath
Smash Apprentice
I love Day9, also all of these stretches are simple and feel amazing, started doing these throughout the day ever since I saw that stream
on an unrelated note
posting here because despite the fact that I've not been playing much ganon lately I'm curious if people are going to super nebs 3, since I was scrolling through the attendees and saw n0ne and it's looking like it'll be a pretty great event
Man, so are you like only busting out ganon for occasional fun now? I wanna see your ganon more really bad.Yea i know man, i was actually keeping an eye out for u near the mid-end of the tourney but only found @tm and got some games in with him
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
The problem I have with grab is that good people will always DI your throw towards center stage. So unless you're dthrowing Marth or PeachPeach at a percent where fair is guaranteed, the best you'll most likely get is a uair. The uair probably won't kill or put them offstage, so you'll have to beat them as they try to get back down. Suddenly, it becomes a lot more work than it should've been.
On the subject of wizard foot, my thinking is you ledge hop just a little early to do it. It would be similar to how you see people ledge hop a little early when edge guarding Sheik when they're confident she's going to recover onto the stage.
Another idea I had is ledge hop fair when someone is at high percent and lands right in front of the ledge. It is risky, because you have to recover after the fair. But if it's a small stage and you know fair will kill, why not?