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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

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I think if we're going to be trying to CG spacies, we shouldn't be attempting to do it from 24-death. I feel like we should CG to make our opponent DI poorly and then take advantage by hitting them out of the CG when they are unprepared or not expecting it to finish early. Like, even just two regrabs from a down-throw is sometimes enough for the opponent to get scared of being continued to be chaingrabbed (as they likely won't DI the first few hits). You can simply just turn around regrab until like 60%. You don't need to start doing JC grabs for them DIing behind you until like 65%+. Even if you whiff a regrab, they're more likely than not going to miss their tech, and you can bait them to do a getup attack or force them to roll away or something at that point. Hell, you could even do like 2-3 regrabs off of downthrow, making them question if they should tech or not and you get practically a free dair followup right after.

I believe Ganon's CG on spacies can be seriously used to mindgame your opponent at mid percents.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

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I'm pretty rusty but I got 5 regrabs on Josh's Falco yesterday Locke (DL64). He was at 60ish% when I first grabbed him. Waited until I was facing a platform, uthrow, he DI'd behind, bair. I can't get it every time but it's fun lol.
 
X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

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Yeah that's a good idea at high percents. After a few regrabs from them DIing in front of you, they're more likely going to try and DI behind to try and make you mess up. That's when you uthrow and get that bair in. Smart stuff.

Still, I have a very shaky relationship with Ganon's grab combos. I want to develop a system where I know exactly what I'm going to go for on every character at every percent range, but I just can't make up my mind because there are so many things Ganon is capable of, but so many things he can easily drop at the same time.
 
RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

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Ran a few tests on optimal SH aerials:

Fair: Start fairing on frame 5 of jumping > start holding down to buffer FF on frame 8 of fair > actually start FFing when hitbox comes out > last 2 frames of hitbox are very close to the ground or going through it, not to mention that the top of fair when fair is starting is also at it's max height. Doing a fair like this from a short hop ensures you get the maximum range that it can provide. If you want to not FF, then you should start fairing on frame 15 of your jump (which is just as Ganon starts to move downwards from SHing after reaching the apex of his jump), as that will have the fist fully extended outward.

Bair: Start bairing on frame 5 of jumping > start holding down to buffer FF on frame 8 of bair > first frame of bair hitbox is not FFing, but the next one is when you start FFing > you will reach frame 18 of your bair just before landing, resulting in an auto cancel. This kind of bair is extremely useful as not only does it auto-cancel, but it lingers a bit when you are moving downward, covering your head making it very hard for an opponent to get around this (making it very safe) and hitting Fox while he is standing up (and even a crouching Fox, but not a crouching Puff) and it will always autocancel if you do this timing whether you hit with it, hit a shield, or whiff. You will never have to l-cancel a bair if you always time it like this. If you want to not FF, then you should start bairing on frame 13 of your jump, as doing so will still allow you to still auto-cancel.

Dair: Start dairing on frame 6 of jumping > start holding down to buffer FF on frame 8 of dair > you should have dair come out for one frame before landing, and reaching far below the stage. This is the optimal timing to do when you want to dair someone through a platform. If you don't want to FF dair, you should start dairing on frame 15 of your jump, and as long as you don't FF on the way down, your dair will reach very low, useful for poking shields, can even be used to cross up your opponents shield and poke them that way.

Uair: Start uairing on frame 5 of jumping > start holding down to buffer FF on frame 8 of uair > you should be getting tipmans hitting below the ledge this way. You cannot time yourself to both tipman below the ledge and auto-cancel, sadly.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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He DI'd away once, then the rest behind aside from one partial DI to test my reaction.

@ X WaNtEd X X WaNtEd X Lol yeah it's hard to get it down to a system like that since there are so many different situations to take into consideration, but in theory it's great. If you just have a really good general idea of what to do and use platforms to your advantage you'll be fine imo. Reaction time is big.

@ RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM that **** about ac bair is so legit. So many people see Ganon facing away and they're just waiting to punish l-cancelled bair lag. ac bair to turnaround jab is a good gimmick because of this.
 
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X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

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-ACE- said:
@ X WaNtEd X X WaNtEd X Lol yeah it's hard to get it down to a system like that since there are so many different situations to take into consideration, but in theory it's great. If you just have a really good general idea of what to do and use platforms to your advantage you'll be fine imo. Reaction tune is big.
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I don't like the idea of not having brutal punishes as Ganon. To me, fine isn't good enough. Sometimes when I mess up a punish in friendlies, I'll be a little upset with myself and people will be like "Oh it's no big deal. You couldn't of gotten more than two hits anyway. *Insert generic Ganon sucks and you're doing well enough statement here*." And I'm like, "No man, just no. I could've killed you." And that's just the thing. If you let people live too long as Ganon, you lose. Therefore, systematic punishes are designed to make the most out of any hit are the future. I think a problem with the Ganon meta is people are ok with getting any kind of hit out of a punish, and there's no real system the way there are with a lot of characters. For example, if you watch Falcon players, there's a very distinct "correct" option to punish with when you get a grab in most situations. I can almost always predict what a falcon will do out of a grab. The same goes for most top tiers. But when I watch a Ganon player, it's a dthrow or uthrow and then it feels improvised from there. And I'm guilty of this too. I've been improvising grab tech chases and combos since I started. But that's gotta stop. I'm starting to get a lot of ideas on how to maximize punishes. Eikelmann's grab combos on fast fallers have inspired me. Currently studying the **** out of those.
 
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PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

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X WaNtEd X said:
The problem I have with grab is that good people will always DI your throw towards center stage. So unless you're dthrowing Marth or PeachPeach at a percent where fair is guaranteed, the best you'll most likely get is a uair. The uair probably won't kill or put them offstage, so you'll have to beat them as they try to get back down. Suddenly, it becomes a lot more work than it should've been.

On the subject of wizard foot, my thinking is you ledge hop just a little early to do it. It would be similar to how you see people ledge hop a little early when edge guarding Sheik when they're confident she's going to recover onto the stage.

Another idea I had is ledge hop fair when someone is at high percent and lands right in front of the ledge. It is risky, because you have to recover after the fair. But if it's a small stage and you know fair will kill, why not?
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This is true in my experience as well. I guess you could predict it and chain grab until you get the desired DI? It'd be mostly based on reads though and there wouldn't be anything guaranteed (it'd also only work on the fast fallers).

As far as ledge hop fair goes, it's ok. Like you said, risky, but it has some application. Typically, it only works if they don't expect it because they can DI it really well from the opposite end of the stage lol.

Early ledge hop would work for wizard foot, but then I would think that there would be more optimal punishes, i.e. stomp --> reverse fair / bair. But if you get the reverse on the wiz kick then it might be better. Something to think about.
 
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X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

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PseudoTurtle said:
This is true in my experience as well. I guess you could predict it and chain grab until you get the desired DI? It'd be mostly based on reads though and there wouldn't be anything guaranteed (it'd also only work on the fast fallers).

As far as ledge hop fair goes, it's ok. Like you said, risky, but it has some application. Typically, it only works if they don't expect it because they can DI it really well from the opposite end of the stage lol.

Early ledge hop would work for wizard foot, but then I would think that there would be more optimal punishes, i.e. stomp --> reverse fair / bair. But if you get the reverse on the wiz kick then it might be better. Something to think about.
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Yeah that's why I think it would only work on smaller stages at kill percent. Otherwise, they survive and you have to get back to stage. They'll most likely get center stage and all you've really accomplished is tacking on 17%. Knowing kill percents on every move is essential because of situations like this.

Ledge hop stomp to fair/bair would be better at medium percents in some situations. But from my experience, there are a lot of times where you can't get a followup from stomp at the medium and higher percents, especially on floatier characters. That's why I would in theory opt for this option if everything fell into place. I mean, either way you need to get up a bit early to get the hit off. Might as well do something that sends them offstage again rather than give them 22% for nothing. Of course, stomp could kill early on floaties, especially if they don't DI it well and don't see it coming.

Oh and another thing. Why do people actually ledge hop when >100% vs. Sheik? If you ledge hop, you risk her going straight for the ledge and recovering. You could easily cover that option by just getting up. From there, you hit her no matter what she does. The reason I'm asking is I see so many Ganons NOT opt for the getup when edgeguarding Sheik and I can't figure out if it's because they're doing something wrong or if I'm missing something.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

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X WaNtEd X said:
Oh and another thing. Why do people actually ledge hop when >100% vs. Sheik? If you ledge hop, you risk her going straight for the ledge and recovering. You could easily cover that option by just getting up. From there, you hit her no matter what she does. The reason I'm asking is I see so many Ganons NOT opt for the getup when edgeguarding Sheik and I can't figure out if it's because they're doing something wrong or if I'm missing something.
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Don't even ledge hop vs shiek if you're below 100%. The timing is a little trickier, but you can still cover every option 9 times out of 10. No reason to ledge hop vs. sheik IMO.

Sorry guys, can't make it to GOML. The last one looked so sick, I'd love to go to one of those some day, but it'll have to wait. I've done a lot of traveling recently lol, I gotta chill.
 
Bizzarro Flame

Bizzarro Flame

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Hey guys, is the chaingrabbing range provided by Magus really 100% accurate?

It seems like Sheik can jump out around 60ish% if they DI slightly behind Ganondorf. Maybe the chaingrabbing range does not take into account certain DI out of grab.
 
S

Superspright

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Her tumbling throws off the timing above ~60%. You just need to compensate for it.
 
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tm

tm

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Bizzarro Flame said:
Hey guys, is the chaingrabbing range provided by Magus really 100% accurate?

It seems like Sheik can jump out around 60ish% if they DI slightly behind Ganondorf. Maybe the chaingrabbing range does not take into account certain DI out of grab.
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I believe it to be true (except for spacies; you can't actually take them as high as the %s listed because ganondorf's slow ground speed). I can consistently take sheik past 70% with any DI that I've come across. You are probably slightly slow, but you can test it and practice it in 20XX.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

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tm said:
I believe it to be true (except for spacies; you can't actually take them as high as the %s listed because ganondorf's slow ground speed). I can consistently take sheik past 70% with any DI that I've come across. You are probably slightly slow, but you can test it and practice it in 20XX.
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Do they have this for GC yet or nah? I saw a thing saying it's in beta or whatever, but haven't actually heard anything else. I'd get it for the wii, but...










My wii got stolen by a heroin addict. True story.









... Prick
 
Duel

Duel

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n0ne said:
Yea i know man, i was actually keeping an eye out for u near the mid-end of the tourney but only found @ tm tm and got some games in with him
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Sorry man, I took off early, next time lets do more friendlies and MM!
 
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