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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
There's plenty of guides on it. A breakdown wouldn't do him much justice. Read the guides first, and then ask more specific questions that weren't covered in the guide like maybe some ledge-options or whatever. I think your question is just a little too vague.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Wow. I don't think I've ever seen a conversation about nutrition get so heated. But, back to Ganon. I'm a new player, and, in all honesty, I'm pretty bad. I think most of my problems stem from weak spacing. So, I was wondering if someone could give me a general breakdown breakdown of Ganondorf spacing theory.
Anything can be punished in numbers of ways so you gotta understand how your moves affect every character. So from a low level perspective i'd practice matchup experience. For example, have someone pick Fox then have him do a simple SH fast fall Nair towards you. How can that be punished? You can likely jab it and even Uair generally. Ftilt works as well if you started it before he started jumping. That means learn your exact range of every move and the timing of them since some moves take time to come down before it becomes active. Once you feel comfortable with that then have him do full jump Nair instead.. and so forth.

The movement options comes from baiting all the possibilities depending on the range of you and him, that is basically spacing. The ideal is to never throw anything in empty space if it's not going to hit you know what I mean? Whiffing can be equal to death if the opponent is close enough to hit you. That also means you cannot fail L-cancels, wavelands when you need to get someone at an angle.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
do you think if you do like, full hop with an aerial, they'll think you'll come down with another aerial and you can just tomahawk then? this is probably gonna be more situational once i come across more experienced players.
Yes, this is very possible, especially if you catch you opponent with the second aerial a few times at first, you then condition them to stay in shield to maybe shield grab you, that's when you go for the tomahawk and grab them instead.

I'm a new player, and, in all honesty, I'm pretty bad. I think most of my problems stem from weak spacing. So, I was wondering if someone could give me a general breakdown breakdown of Ganondorf spacing theory.
Spacing on the basic side is to hit with the tip of your moves, and knowing that if you move yourself through the air, that that will extend your range, but a lot of Ganon have a problem over-extending with their aerials. Fair reaches pretty far, and so does bair. More often then not, you don't have to move through the air to hit your opponent or make them feel pressured. Good spacing doesn't always mean that you'll hit the opponent, but it does mean that each time you throw out a move, it's damn near close and you're opponent will feel threatened by it.
 

Linguini

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
4,698
Location
Weston, Florida
Ganon is all about that precise spacing...especially with aerials. In addition to the distance aspect you also have the ff/non fastfall dimension which gives you even more options in terms of where/how you want your hitbox to come out. Key for not getting shieldgrabbed and baiting jumps
 

Laharl's_Wrath

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
109
Location
NY
For all newer players coming to learn Ganondorf stuff here

This is also the jerry springer specific learning zone. So occasionally we all get dramatic that never accomplishes anything.
It's actually one of my favorite things about this board
 

King Mob

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
39
Location
Des Plaines, IL
Thank you. That's all very helpful despite my question being so general.

So from a low level perspective i'd practice matchup experience. For example, have someone pick Fox then have him do a simple SH fast fall Nair towards you. How can that be punished? You can likely jab it and even Uair generally. Ftilt works as well if you started it before he started jumping. That means learn your exact range of every move and the timing of them since some moves take time to come down before it becomes active. Once you feel comfortable with that then have him do full jump Nair instead.. and so forth.
That's hella smart and how I'd like to practice. The person I practice with now doesn't see the value in it, so I'll have to find more people to play with regularly.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Thank you. That's all very helpful despite my question being so general.


That's hella smart and how I'd like to practice. The person I practice with now doesn't see the value in it, so I'll have to find more people to play with regularly.
Tsk.. well just make him read my post then he'll see the value idk.. lol.

There's also the Cactuar method which I am fond of too which is also basically the Bruce Lee method as well. Mastering one move repeatedly until you can do it x1000 times in a row. Same goes for specific wavelands, etc.

“I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.”

That's exactly why M2k is extremely scary.
 
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PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Wow. I don't think I've ever seen a conversation about nutrition get so heated. But, back to Ganon. I'm a new player, and, in all honesty, I'm pretty bad. I think most of my problems stem from weak spacing. So, I was wondering if someone could give me a general breakdown breakdown of Ganondorf spacing theory.
Hmm. First off, eat more vegetables. Then lift 500+ lbs a day and make sure your opponent has nothing to eat that day besides McDonald's and Mountain Dew.

But for real man, if you wanna work on spacing, first learn how to control your character well enough to hit just the edge of the hitboxes (i.e. hit with the fist of the fair rather than ganon's chest). But spacing is deeper than that. There's a video somewhere out there that explained all of it, but basically it said that true spacing is not hitting with the edge of the hitbox, rather it is spacing out of your opponent's range. In reality, it consists of combining the two.
 

King Mob

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
39
Location
Des Plaines, IL
Tsk.. well just make him read my post then he'll see the value idk.. lol.

There's also the Cactuar method which I am fond of too which is also basically the Bruce Lee method as well. Mastering one move repeatedly until you can do it x1000 times in a row. Same goes for specific wavelands, etc.

“I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.”

That's exactly why M2k is extremely scary.
I'll tell him Kage senpai says to step it up. And I'll start hitting the lab whenever I've got time till I've got that one inch thunder punch.
 

Эикельманн [РУС]

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
5,263
Location
Orlando/Владивосток
It's actually one of my favorite things about this board
straight up. that's how you know we're a family. we get emotional. we love each other, even though sometimes some steam gets in the way of it. you don't see this kind of **** with other character communities.

@ S Superspright i'm gonna be spending a week in LI before apex and would love to sit down with you and have a super serious training session. :bee:

@ iRanch iRanch and i both went to the monthly orlando event today. we both did some good stuff but underperformed where it counted. i beat pi, a top florida samus in my pool to secure first seed, but then lost to gravy and another person that i absolutely shouldn't have lost to. head wasn't in the game. whatever.

ranch, however, impressed me tremendously by taking a game off of one of the better players at the event (fearless, jiggs main who got 5th at the event, narrowly losing a set to porkchops at the tournament). in just two years, ranch has been able to make some of the best players in the state sweat IN TOURNAMENT, by taking games off of them and showing them that he's a serious threat and not to be slept on. really really wish you guys could see him in action. we should all rally together to convince him to attend Apex :cool:

just figured i'd check in.
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
We're all family. Ever single living thing on this planet is related through a common ancestor. To say we're not all family it's absurd, Renth. It doesn't mean I like my family.

@ Эикельманн [РУС] Эикельманн [РУС]

If you're on the Island then let me know. I can definitely host or something. I live in Suffolk County though.
 
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spider_sense

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
2,295
Location
Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
Welp, I beat Blea at the latest AO in Winner's semi's, but lost to him in loser's finals (3-2) The counter pick is what ****ed me over lol. http://www.twitch.tv/arcadeodyssey/b/581478978 2:19 (Winner's semi's) 3:13 (Loser's finals)

There's some other matches with me vs Porkchops I got decimated tho. lol It's starts @ 2:24 I dropped a lot of ****, but he was playing on super on point.

Now I think I have the weegee match up figured out; final destination kinda screwed me over, which means I need to have a stronger ground game. Time to make my footsies better.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Messages
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OMFG @ -ACE- -ACE- that sig is gold.

In other news pertaining to myself, I got some more good combo video footage for when I make a combo video in the future. Woohoo.
 

GanonMaster

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
127
Location
Trondheim, Norway
NNID
Dragmirejr
Well, I've been superbusy lately, but finally I can write in forum again :)

so how do you guys pressure your opponents? I feel like I win against weaker players because I punish their noob mistakes, but players that are currently stronger than me reks me. I think this is because I lack the skill to pressure them to do something stupid, so I'd love to hear your take on pressure!
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Pressure in what situation, ganonmaster? There are many, many, many forms of pressure haha. It's not necessarily something that is easily explained, but I can do my best to help you out.

Pressure them into rolling? Into using a double jump? Throwing out an unsafe aerial?
 

Coastward

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,560
Location
Pumpkin Hill
alright so i got bored and i made this for people who don't want to use frames to describe moves.

Jab
0.35 seconds in total.
0.05 - 0.08 hitbox total.

Ftilt
0.97 seconds in total.
0.15 - 0.18 hitbox total.

Dtilt
0.58 seconds in total.
0.16 - 0.19 hitbox total.

Utilt
1.9 seconds in total.
1.35 - 1.37 hitbox total.

Dash Attack
0.65 seconds in total.
0.12 - 0.26 hitbox total.

Fsmash
1.1 seconds in total.
0.33 - 0.40 hitbox total.

Dsmash
0.81 seconds in total.
0.31 - 0.36, 48 - 53 hitbox total.

Usmash
0.90 seconds in total.
0.35 - 0.38 hitbox total.
Nair
0.73 seconds in total.
0.11 - 0.13, 0.26 - 0.28 hitbox total in v1.0.
0.11 - 0.13, 0.33 - 0.35 in later versions.

Bair
0.58 seconds in total.
0.16 - 0.25 hitbox total.

Fair
0.73 seconds in total.
0.23 - 0.31 hitbox total.

Uair
0.55 seconds in total.
0.10 - 0.26 hitbox total.

Dair
0.73 seconds in total.
0.26 - 0.33 hitbox total.

Neutral B
1.98 seconds in total.
1.16 - 1.20 hitbox total.

Side B
1.31 seconds in total.
0.25 - 0.56 hitbox total.

Down B
Grounded: 1.28 seconds in total. 0.23 - 0.56 hitbox total.
Aerial: 0.96 seconds in total. 0.25 - 0.48 hitbox total.
 
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Эикельманн [РУС]

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
5,263
Location
Orlando/Владивосток
Welp, I beat Blea at the latest AO in Winner's semi's, but lost to him in loser's finals (3-2) The counter pick is what ****ed me over lol. http://www.twitch.tv/arcadeodyssey/b/581478978 2:19 (Winner's semi's) 3:13 (Loser's finals)

There's some other matches with me vs Porkchops I got decimated tho. lol It's starts @ 2:24 I dropped a lot of ****, but he was playing on super on point.

Now I think I have the weegee match up figured out; final destination kinda screwed me over, which means I need to have a stronger ground game. Time to make my footsies better.
i wish i could play blea. :\
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Welp, I beat Blea at the latest AO in Winner's semi's, but lost to him in loser's finals (3-2) The counter pick is what ****ed me over lol. http://www.twitch.tv/arcadeodyssey/b/581478978 2:19 (Winner's semi's) 3:13 (Loser's finals)

There's some other matches with me vs Porkchops I got decimated tho. lol It's starts @ 2:24 I dropped a lot of ****, but he was playing on super on point.

Now I think I have the weegee match up figured out; final destination kinda screwed me over, which means I need to have a stronger ground game. Time to make my footsies better.
It's fun to play vs a Falco on point huh... =/ The pain.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Well considering the fact he goes to nationals and I don't; I'd expect him to out perform me, and even then I give him a run for his money. Don't believe me? Ask him who the best Ganon is vs Falco. You might be surprised. :3
Who said I didn't believe? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YwTI-0w02o Also here's the set vs Bam finally. The long awaited one...
 

tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
Anything can be punished in numbers of ways so you gotta understand how your moves affect every character. So from a low level perspective i'd practice matchup experience. For example, have someone pick Fox then have him do a simple SH fast fall Nair towards you. How can that be punished? You can likely jab it and even Uair generally. Ftilt works as well if you started it before he started jumping. That means learn your exact range of every move and the timing of them since some moves take time to come down before it becomes active. Once you feel comfortable with that then have him do full jump Nair instead.. and so forth.

The movement options comes from baiting all the possibilities depending on the range of you and him, that is basically spacing. The ideal is to never throw anything in empty space if it's not going to hit you know what I mean? Whiffing can be equal to death if the opponent is close enough to hit you. That also means you cannot fail L-cancels, wavelands when you need to get someone at an angle.
Yes, this talk is so helpful.

So I finally found the vids of me from an earlier biweekly (Winners and losers semis)
I didn't take any games in these videos but the matches weren't too bad. I'd love any analysis / advice and I think I'm not too far away from the skill level of these players.
vs KJH (falco)
vs Juggleguy (falcon)

Thanks a lot guys.

edit: @ PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle the grabs I get here are good examples of me missing the jab and feeling unsure about using dthrow and what follow ups to do.
 
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Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Yes, this talk is so helpful.

So I finally found the vids of me from an earlier biweekly (Winners and losers semis)
I didn't take any games in these videos but the matches weren't too bad. I'd love any analysis / advice and I think I'm not too far away from the skill level of these players.
vs KJH (falco)
vs Juggleguy (falcon)

Thanks a lot guys.

edit: @ PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle the grabs I get here are good examples of me missing the jab and feeling unsure about using dthrow and what follow ups to do.
You have to up your punish game, missed a lot of opportunities to kill him and damage him. =(
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Tm, I'll critique in a couple hours, I'm a little busy right now.

After a quick watch vs juggleguy, it seemed like you need to learn the match up. Like kage said, you missed a few punish opportunities and seemed like you didn't know what was necessarily a safe move choice... both of which go into learning the match up. I think if you can get a steady training partner that plays falcon, you can definitely beat him.
 

tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
You have to up your punish game, missed a lot of opportunities to kill him and damage him. =(
Which video were you referring to? Any examples of what was bad or could / should have been done instead would be really helpful.

Sick game 4 vs Bam by the way, hype set. Too many tech flubs on your marth though!

Tm, I'll critique in a couple hours, I'm a little busy right now.

After a quick watch vs juggleguy, it seemed like you need to learn the match up. Like kage said, you missed a few punish opportunities and seemed like you didn't know what was necessarily a safe move choice... both of which go into learning the match up. I think if you can get a steady training partner that plays falcon, you can definitely beat him.
Well me playing in tournament is 'learning the matchup' so I'm trying to get everything I can out of these videos. A lot of times I know that my option was bad but either don't know what to do instead or wasn't ready to do a better option because lack of experience. Even with DI, sometimes against falcon his hits just happen so fast and I wasn't ready to move the stick. Another example is that he was onto my aerial on his shield -> jab, and I recognized that in game, but wasn't mentally free enough to start mixing it up (aerial -> grab).
 
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cptjiggles69

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Messages
294
Yes, this talk is so helpful.

So I finally found the vids of me from an earlier biweekly (Winners and losers semis)
I didn't take any games in these videos but the matches weren't too bad. I'd love any analysis / advice and I think I'm not too far away from the skill level of these players.
vs KJH (falco)
vs Juggleguy (falcon)

Thanks a lot guys.

edit: @ PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle the grabs I get here are good examples of me missing the jab and feeling unsure about using dthrow and what follow ups to do.
@ tm tm don't forget up air out of shield or f tilt upwards for falcons approaches! I feel that you have to try and keep your space out of his grab range ;i saw you doing dash attack and i don't think that's a safe idea. Lovin the ledge waveland moonwalk man. And like kage said more punishes, i just hate falcons knee lol. Hard to avoid sometimes
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
Yo @ L Linguini how the **** did you get so crispy with your edgeguards vs spacies? I feel like every time I watch one of your videos you just know exactly what to do for any given situation. You make upair looks like it's the only tool you need to use, and stomp to just add insult to injury. I'm striving to have that speed and technicality of you, Linguini.
 

Yort

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
168
Location
Georgia
Can anyone give me advice on the Pikachu matchup?

There is a high level Pikachu player in Georgia who i've been playing with recently. I know he's much better than I but I also feel as though the way he plays the matchup kills me.

I feel as though he just has such an easy time throwing me off the stage and gimping my recovery with a huge success rate, while I have no clue how to edge-guard him. Do I have to treat Pikachu's recovery like shieks and punish with a back air or something when he comes back? Sometimes i'm able to up air his up b but it's difficult and most of the times he'll live from it anyways.

Also, how do I deal with the constant nair pressure? Up air out of shield? He's always flying around the map throwing out tons of hitboxes, which usually pushes me to sit in my shield more then normal, and when he notices me shielding more then usual he'll just dash grab and throw me near or off the edge, which usually results in me dying to his double up b hit box into some other crazy off stage edgeguard.

Any help?
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Solid ground game, aerial spacing,
grabs (changrab), and learning how to edgeguard her is crucial. Zoning too. You HAVE to avoid situations where you're above her and make decisions that promote situations where she's above you (free uair).
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
Yo @ L Linguini how the **** did you get so crispy with your edgeguards vs spacies? I feel like every time I watch one of your videos you just know exactly what to do for any given situation. You make upair looks like it's the only tool you need to use, and stomp to just add insult to injury. I'm striving to have that speed and technicality of you, Linguini.
Uair really is all you need. It semi-spikes, it has a great send even if you don't hit with the spike, and the hitbox in his pelvis is even useful for edge-guarding too. Everything else is superfluous really. Bair they can recover perhaps, same with the other aerials. Uair is the only one that can truly stuff people.
 
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