Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Linguini]

Depends how you're doing the bair. Are you no lag sh it or l canceling on the ground? The latter usually suckz

 

[foxyisemo]

I was banned for posting pics of chicks in biknis(both of my early accounts), but this is the one and only DORSEY.

I should be in SW FL this winter with ACE... will be working a **** ton, but I'd like to smash some of y'all.

smash WITH***

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yo kage, I know that mentally, but it's just hard to do in a tournament setting lol. I'm sure as I play more tournament matches, I'll get the hang of the nerves and everything. Solid advice tho, playing on the defensive and working out a strategy, I guess I could be a little more campy and evasive lol.

And linguini, I was talking about the times where I do a bair from a waveland off a platform or something, but they have just enough time to throw up their shield. A SH bair is easy lol I usually just DI away and jab/tilt/do whatever, like you said.

Serious question for the mods: what's so bad about chicks in bikinis?

edit: oh and tm, yea scar was almost certainly sandbagging lol, during the second match he says to me while playing "don't let me stomp you through the platforms [on FoD]," as he's doing it hahahaha. I guess I'm just not at that level yet.

 

[tm]

Don't feel bad lol.

My guess is that in said situation if they just barely had time to put their shield up, and it isn't spaced out of their grab range (because you can't space where the edge of the paltform is, lol) then buffering roll away would probably be the option of choice. Perhaps quickly double jump if you're feeling really ballsy

 

[tm]

I'm still having a lot of trouble vs falcon. I'm getting better at crouch canceling though, but I usually jab afterwards which is a weak punishment compared to grab if it's guaranteed. What are your guys' thoughts on uthrow vs dthrow, and at which percents? I know kage/ others like to uthrow but I can see argments for both sides, and I'd like to hear them.

To break down a situation I find myself in often: say we're (me, ganon, vs cpt. falcon) in the neutral game, and I'm at high (80+) percent. Let's analyze my options in one situation, he dashes in with a SHFFLd knee. This is my interpretation of my options: please dispel any inaccuracies or enlighten me to a new thought.
1) If I react fast enough, I can ftilt, jab, or SH instant uair, most likely trading with any of these, and either dying from the knee or being sent very far offstage and likely will die from his edgeguard
2) I can try to dash away bair, which will work if he didn't jump far enough, but if he did I will eat the knee
3) I can shield, which puts me in a relatively bad spot where he can apply pressure, try to hit me out of my options, or grab, which (platforms aside) will combo uthrow into knee
4) I can roll (probably towards) him as he jumps across the stage at me. This essentially resets the situation, which I suppose is the best of these, because eventually he should mess up, giving me a chance to punish (obviously I shouldn't just repeat this over and over but I'm just trying to get a feel for which options are useful).
5) I can eat the knee and dual stick DI to amsah-tech so I take damage but don't die (LOL)

Let's get the discussion rolling!

 

[Renth]

unrelated - TM are you coming to fight pitt?

 

[tm]

It's on my schedule. So yeah unless something crazy important comes up I'll be there.

 

[gravy]

As a falcon player, there's something to be said for just jumping out of the range my knee will occupy. You don't have to always think of attacking, just moving around me is punishment enough sometimes.

 

[Divinokage]

You can down-B the knee straight up or side-B since both these moves gives Ganon an instant pushback for spacing so you can maybe force him to whiff and get something started for yourself. Forward Smash might be too slow though. You can probably do wavedash back into grab too.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I don't like to use side-b vs falcon because nair. Although I guess there is something to be said for CCing it. Speaking of which, tm, dtilt is a fantastic option out of a successful CC. You should really only jab if you expect to get a grab or a tech chase out of it- one of my new favorite anti nair pressure tactics is to CC dtilt into a down-b tech chase because for some reason they ALWAYS tech away or miss tech after d-tilt (down-b covers both, along with tech in place, and is not punishable if he techs behind), it's ridiculous.

Gravy what up dude, good matches. Got you next time though!!

Kage, let it be known that I hate fsmash. At least if you only hit their shield with side-b it isn't very punishable.

 

[tm]

If I get a jab, I'm likely to try to grab or tech chase out of it, unless they DI it well. I like that dtilt -> downB idea though, I'll try it sometime.

Kage, I feel like if they space the knee well, sideB/ downB won't pull back far enough (like he's crossing me up with the knee) to not get hit by at least the weak hitbox of the knee. Even wavedashing back might get hit, but perhaps if he's that deep then ftilt/ jab would have come out before the knee. This is all so reaction time based though, maybe I should work on my reaction time.

 

[spider_sense]

I'm still having a lot of trouble vs falcon. I'm getting better at crouch canceling though, but I usually jab afterwards which is a weak punishment compared to grab if it's guaranteed. What are your guys' thoughts on uthrow vs dthrow, and at which percents? I know kage/ others like to uthrow but I can see argments for both sides, and I'd like to hear them.

To break down a situation I find myself in often: say we're (me, ganon, vs cpt. falcon) in the neutral game, and I'm at high (80+) percent. Let's analyze my options in one situation, he dashes in with a SHFFLd knee. This is my interpretation of my options: please dispel any inaccuracies or enlighten me to a new thought.
1) If I react fast enough, I can ftilt, jab, or SH instant uair, most likely trading with any of these, and either dying from the knee or being sent very far offstage and likely will die from his edgeguard
2) I can try to dash away bair, which will work if he didn't jump far enough, but if he did I will eat the knee
3) I can shield, which puts me in a relatively bad spot where he can apply pressure, try to hit me out of my options, or grab, which (platforms aside) will combo uthrow into knee
4) I can roll (probably towards) him as he jumps across the stage at me. This essentially resets the situation, which I suppose is the best of these, because eventually he should mess up, giving me a chance to punish (obviously I shouldn't just repeat this over and over but I'm just trying to get a feel for which options are useful).
5) I can eat the knee and dual stick DI to amsah-tech so I take damage but don't die (LOL)

Let's get the discussion rolling!

D-throw is pretty legit against Falcon, because it can go into d-tilt immediately after on (45-50%) and imho it's alot easier to tech chase Falcon after the d-throw. U-throw is pretty good too, but at higher percents because you want to have the time to a short-hop uair or nair. (Yes, I said nair) If he's just knee spamming you can contest with a retreating bair/fair. You also can't be holding your shield up because you're just asking to get grab, if the pressure because too overwhelming you can buffer rolls and become relatively safe. Also you Ganon mains need to reverse uair more for edge guarding (you too Kage)

 

[Superspright]

Everyone should uair a lot more, and bair. Fair and Dair aren't that good.

 

[Divinokage]

I normally always uair to bair vs Falcon mainly. It's the faceroll edgeguard, it works vs Ganon very well too.. Actually I think it works on a lot of characters going way out there lol.

 

[foxyisemo]

Everyone should uair a lot more, and bair. Fair and Dair aren't that good.

If you do not go for quadruple dair tech chases then you are a mangina

 

[tm]

I agree that uair/ bair are generally better moves than fair/ dair. But a lot of times getting that dair just gives me all the momentum and leads right up to taking the stock (against fastfallers). So damn cool too. Instant uair and SHFFAC bair are the homies though

 

[foxyisemo]

uair and bair are faster, so better from the neutral position. seems like an awkward comparison being that it's not factoring in control/pressure(if you think they're far better moves, then you are assuming the neutral position dominating control... is that always the case and should it be?) . Keeping it in the neutral pos is good for ganon in several match-ups but.. .. . . .. . .. ..

if you're assuming top tier theoretical meta of perfect tech decisions, great, but similarly if you think you're immune to teching into ganon fairs and dairs, then ...... .. . . .. . .. ..

bair and uair are insanely useful particularly in some match-ups, but I don't weight them marginally above the other aerials excluding nair.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

who knew about this? who knew ganons dair could hit people through battlefield and didnt spread the word? i did that completely on accident last week, are there any other stages it can be done on? at 8:21 in the match... **** me me that felt great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRNmoSZdREk&feature=youtu.be

 

[Divinokage]

Ya the platform is pretty small on BF so you can do that.. but he would've died anyway.. lol.

 

[tm]

wow, I actually didn't know that was possible

 

[Renth]

wow, I actually didn't know that was possible

I use that one, I also will sometimes go under the stage and up air. The up air will go through the stage and hit whoever is above you.

That commentary echo damn

 

[Superspright]

There is some **** that Ganon's are definitely sleeping on. I don't know what to call it beside a 'perfect rising aerial' because that's what it is. Gravity gets turned on for your character on frame two after they launch off of the ground--if you use an aerial it can start earlier or to be more precise on frame 1. Ganon was designed to reach the middle platforms JUST barely which is why his waveland is so good--what most don't know is if you do a perfect rising Bair you will hit through the platform but not land on it so you can chase an option and still follow up afterword safely because you are below them and not on platform. This can be done on a lot of platforms--I believe FoD has this nuance as well with SH and FH. Also most people don't use the upsmash on the short platform of FoD which I kind of don't understand. With that platform it's the highest upsmash in the game because it teleports you up after the first hit and if they get hit by the first hit they ALWAYS get hit by the second because during hitstun you teleport up and smash them with the second hit.

Another thing that some Ganon's stopped really doing which makes me sad is the ledge shenanigans like reverse ledge-dash or invincible ledge-drop uairs. I don't really see shield drops either. Ganon can do a lot more stuff but he's a pain in the ass to do it with. And, barely anyone edge-cancels his aerials and every single one except nair is VERY positive on shield when edge-canceled...he always has enough time to grab them after an edge-canceled aerial.

 

[Divinokage]

That depends how you use the U-smash, it doesn't cover much ground for a techchase unless you are absolutely sure it'll hit but usually you'd want to send the opponent off-stage rather than hit him with u-smash unless you have a guaranteed setup.

 

[tm]

There is some **** that Ganon's are definitely sleeping on. I don't know what to call it beside a 'perfect rising aerial' because that's what it is. Gravity gets turned on for your character on frame two after they launch off of the ground--if you use an aerial it can start earlier or to be more precise on frame 1. Ganon was designed to reach the middle platforms JUST barely which is why his waveland is so good--what most don't know is if you do a perfect rising Bair you will hit through the platform but not land on it so you can chase an option and still follow up afterword safely because you are below them and not on platform. This can be done on a lot of platforms--I believe FoD has this nuance as well with SH and FH. Also most people don't use the upsmash on the short platform of FoD which I kind of don't understand. With that platform it's the highest upsmash in the game because it teleports you up after the first hit and if they get hit by the first hit they ALWAYS get hit by the second because during hitstun you teleport up and smash them with the second hit.

Another thing that some Ganon's stopped really doing which makes me sad is the ledge shenanigans like reverse ledge-dash or invincible ledge-drop uairs. I don't really see shield drops either. Ganon can do a lot more stuff but he's a pain in the *** to do it with. And, barely anyone edge-cancels his aerials and every single one except nair is VERY positive on shield when edge-canceled...he always has enough time to grab them after an edge-canceled aerial.

So you're saying that if you start an aerial on frame one of his jump, he will reach just slightly lower at the peak of his jump? Specifically, which platforms would this work on, and with short hop or full hop? I also imagine that the aerial of choice could determine whether or not he lands on the platform, as the aerial animations change his body orientation slightly (ex: why ganon can ledgehop uair onstage, but can't ledgehop bair onstage). That upsmash trick sounds cool, I'll mess with it in the future.

Personally I love the ledge tricks, but i'm not consistent enough at RLD to make much use of it. I am implementing invincible ledgedrop uairs (esp against marth), invincible ledgehop jabs/grabs/ftilts, partial length waveland grabs/ jabs/ reverse ftilts, and perfect waveland grabs/rolls/ etc. The only ganon I see much edge cancelling from is Bizzarro Flame, and I agree that it is under-utilized. With all this and chaingrabbing fastfallers there's definitely room for Ganon's meta to advance and still be competitive. A lot of it's just hard as ****.

 

[foxyisemo]

most ganons know everything that superspright said in 2008

 

[Renth]

most ganons know everything that superspright said in 2008

He means well.

His walls of text can be hard to decipher sometimes, I think videos get points across much more than words.

 

[Superspright]

If I had recording equipment I'd show what I said. Kinda hard to do much else beside explain.

 

[foxyisemo]

They don't require much of an explanation haha. My gripe with some of your posts is that they come across as someone that just figured out if they do x and y, their ganon won't get styled on in tournament.(ex: If I bair/uair a lot, opponents in ganon's tougher match-ups will have a tarder time acquiring control) Perhaps I'm being a bit judgmental and I'm sorry for that, and I agree with Renth that you mean well. Additionally, that's probably ideal advice for the Ganon boards. Maybe it shouldn't start with the statement that you are in the know of what all Ganons need to work on

kudos to taking my jab well

 

[Superspright]

I think you are really bad at reading comprehension because only an idiot or someone with severe insecurity issues could glean what you've proposed from my message.

Wasn't much of a jab as it was the insecure ramblings of a teenager.

 

[foxyisemo]

I think you are really bad at reading comprehension because only an idiot or someone with severe insecurity issues could glean what you've proposed from my message.

Wasn't much of a jab as it was the insecure ramblings of a teenager.

Hahaha....

I cut down your video game advice and you responded by insulting my character, comprehension, and maturity level.... and I'm the insecure one?

I just thought I was telling you what most people think when they read your posts but in a nice way. Apparently we see things very differently.

 

[Superspright]

My matter of fact tone is so blank and placid that only someone with the ability to project could put what you are proposing again there. In other words you see what you want to see. If you spoke like me perhaps you'd feel high and mighty about yourself but I don't. You should really try to read the details of what I write instead of gleaning over it quickly and then making brass assumptions.

 

[foxyisemo]

Is this guy kidding? I know he's not, but i'd like to think so at least.

 

[Divinokage]

Well I agree we should use more ledgedrop uair vs Marth, I hardly use that because its kinda scary as I dont have confidence of how to use it precisely without missing. Ill try to figure it out.

 

[Superspright]

I'm not kidding. You really have a mental problem.

@Kage How do you do it that it feels like it's risky?

 

[foxyisemo]

If only I portrayed myself like you do... then I'd be the queen of the ganon boards.

 

[foxyisemo]

. . . . . .

 

[-ACE-]

superspright: Ganon wasn't designed for the platforms, it's coincidence that the height of his jump works out well with the platform heights, and this is not what makes his waveland good; it would be good regardless of the height of his jump. The perfect rising aerial you speak of its simply a frame perfect sh aerial. Lots of Ganons use this for techchasing and following up easily. You can also dj to perfect waveland on all lower platforms (even DL64) after the aerial to cover more options on the follow-up. The upsmash setup you described is very situational (and only being viable on one stage), as well as ineffective in comparison to other options that would send your opponent offstage. RLD's and invincible ledgedrops are well known and put to good use regularly (RLD in all matchups, inv ledgedrop vs Ganon, marth, falcon, etc.) by Ganons that aren't new. Edge cancels are underused by some, but it's not as useful for Ganon as some characters (falcon) due to Ganon's general lack of speed and it being easier to predict/ punish when overused). Glad you're experimenting, but you shouldn't be surprised by Dorsey's post, lol.

tm: ledgehop ftilt is never invincible.

 

[Superspright]

His perfect waveland is easier because of this detail coincidental or design [and it's obviously design because video games are designed...LOL]. I never said he was 'designed for platforms' [WTF does that mean?] but his jump height is just enough to put him on top of them. I do not DJ waveland anything. It's always single hop. I just time it properly and do full wavelands. Most go the lazy way and DJ but that leaves you open to get killed too often. I haven't seen anyone really doing RLD or any of the things I described, consistently. I know everyone can do them, but no one is using them in tournament or they commit suicide 2-3 times a match when they try. I'm just not impressed. I haven't been experimenting. I've been doing.

Honestly, just about every one of you needs to go back to college and get your reading comprehension up...because I haven't said half of the **** I am accused of. Quote me next time.

Also I'm pretty sure you can invincibly ledge-hop ftilt. If you can wavedash and jab it shouldn't be hard to ftilt.

 

[foxyisemo]

No, you can't invincibly ledge-hop ftilt.. lol.

You saying you didn't "say" something is just an out and a product of your advice that doesn't say d1 ck.

In all seriousness, you'd probably benefit from reading some of the ganon guides from 5+ years ago.

 

[foxyisemo]

and LOL @ melee's design having ganon's waveland in mind.. seriously, keep 'em coming.