Wrong. You can in fact punish rolls after a shine in the air. Ive done it many many many times. LOOOOOL noob with inaccurate information. Stop spreading bad info your making the noobs even noobier. In matter of fact i actually invented the doubleshine wd down to punish them ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFLLLLLLLLLLLLLL People need to stop listening to this complete utter noob
I mean, of course if they do their OoS option slow out of the second shine you can still catch them, but you most certainly cannot think that you are able to airdodge back to the ground and then move forward or backward fast enough to hit them out of the end of their roll if they buffer it after your second shine... You can barely catch them when you stay grounded and WD to them immediately.
The two situations being compared here are:
Scenario 1:
Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on first frame possible
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Airdodge Down
Airdodge Landing Lag
Scenario 2:
Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on second frame possible
Jump(Without Jumpsquat)
Airdodge Down
Airdodge Landing Lag
The total frames until you are actionable is actually lower when you do an aerial shine, assuming you will be doing a wavedash down in both scenarios.
Now, if we change the situations being compared to:
Scenario 1:
Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on first frame possible
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on first frame possible
Short hop
Scenario 2:
Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on second frame possible
Jump(Without Jumpsquat)
Airdodge Down
Airdodge Landing Lag
Short hop
Scenario two becomes worse, because you need to add an action to get to the right position to begin your sh. This is not a fair comparison for the aerial shine though, as the intent of scenario 1 here is to do extended shield pressure or to aerial drift and escape.
The aerial shine to airdodge down is specifically to set up being able to chase the opponent's escape choice.
I would argue though, that grounded doubleshining into holding b to allow a delayed wd out of shield would accomplish the same thing as aerial wavedash down, but the movement would be awkward as ****, and would commit you in other ways, where the aerial shine puts you in standing instead of waiting in shine.
The problem I have with viewing it this way is you have completely left out the possibility of going from grounded shines into a WD as opposed to a straight down WD. The whole thing that I dislike about the aerial shine is that you force yourself to airdodge straight down. You'll pretty much never be able to punish quick rolls and WDs OoS when you're airdodging straight back to where you jumped from, and airdodging diagonally would just eat up even more frames leaving you even more vulnerable in between the second and third shine than you already are. Sure, if you want to airdodge straight down in both situations, aerial double shine won't be much slower, but why would you ever want to commit yourself to a lack of mobility like that? If the shine connects, you're probably not going to be able to combo straight out of it. You probably won't be able to catch any rolls or WDs OoS. You don't protect yourself from grabs or OoS attacks. When you stay grounded, you have so many more possibilities:
- You can combo straight from a grounded shine on hit even if they DI well because you can waveshine towards them.
- You can WD immediately after the shine to get concrete punishes on rolls/WDs OoS with standing attacks (not just desperation dash attacks or aerials that were necessary because you were running towards them as opposed to WDing).
- You can SHL out of shine to chase their OoS options.
- You can grab.
- You can SH an aerial.
- And last, but not least, you can shine again.
NONE of those are even options once you decide to leave the ground and aerial shine. The best part about staying grounded is that you can, as long as you are confident in your tech skill, relegate your pressure to another shine iteration. I don't think ANYONE would ever suggest just shining over and over, so I want to make it clear that's not what I'm suggesting (since I agree with your description of multishining being pressure with a different intent than pressure with WLs). However, that shouldn't undermine the mixup between single, double, triple, quadruple shines, etc. Simply being able to chain 3-4 shines together makes your opponent think twice every time they try to escape, whereas with the aerial double shine they will predictably escape after the second shine, but there's nothing you can do anyway (except keep pressuring their new location, but that hardly seems efficient or effective). Even if you're just thinking about pressure involving solely shines and airdodges, grounded shines let you continuously rearrange you positioning and protects you when you want to WD/WL because there is a threat of another shine. Once you're in the air and they've waited out the second shine, they are free to move as they please, whereas if you had stayed grounded, they would have to worry about the shine vs. WD mixup. If they happen to guess correctly as to when you will WD/WL, then you're not going to be any worse off than if you had done an aerial shine instead.
So considering all this, I am baffled as to how anyone could still consider airdodging down superior pressure. The only pro I've heard is the one thing I've known at the beginning of the discussion; it saves a few frames getting to the ground after the second shine compared to going through jumpsquat. I've already layed out why this seems like a small factor in the grand scheme of things, and I am quite interested in finding out how many frames it actually even saves if anyone is up to doing the dirty work with AR/Dolphin.
