how to pressure like westballz help plz!!!!!!!!!

[Rocketpowerchill]

I want to get that sick pressure down with the delayed shine waveland i just dont know the timing. Help
i want to break shields too, any tips are much abliged <3 long liv melee

 

[BTmoney]

He explained it somewhere I'll pull up that post in a sec.
But let me preface it with this, his method will only lead to shield breaking if your opponent is fishing for an OoS punishment and not a roll and they can't find an opening because you are doing something so weird that they can't see when to get their normal options out. It is slower than multi-shining. The benefit to it really is to be tricky and have some control over other options the way I see it.
The best way to break a shield is to perform frame perfect multishines.
The most practical way however would probably be to apply standard pressure, double shines, westballz things, followed by a string of as many multishines you can perform (3+).



I imagine that shine->wavelanding->shine/whatever
would generate a difference in hitlag/shield stun longer than 4 frames. If that is the case, most characters can roll with the c-stick to get out of it. Rolling vs. shield pressure actually always works in theory. However temperance must be applied.
When I am getting pressured or get my shield hit I think about this
(this is very watered down)

• If the aerial wasn't on the lower half of the SH then you can roll out of it after shield stun and avoid the shine
• If it is falling or late then if you try to roll after the shield stun you will get shined
• Am I about to roll in the same direction

Here ya go:

have u ever seen someone shield on a platform? What pp and most other falcos do when they are under them is shine waveland in place shine again into whatever they want. I just used the same principle everywhere not just platforms. Its so fast actually that u cant really react and u can only anticipate and try to punish. And if u get the timing down for my double shine i can delay the second shine so its higher in the air and if ur expecting it and trying to punish after the second shine u will get hit by the delayed shine. Also on top of that i can airdodge immediately after the delayed shine so u gotta wait until i land to punish which is even harder because u are looking for my DOUBLE SHINE. Basically i think my technique is absolutely hands down the best because u have so many different options u can cover and you can be safe if u kno how to do it properly.​

 

[genkaku]

shield pressure should not be about breaking shields ever.
but it is pretty cool I guess...

westballz pressure is intense, but it's not exceedingly difficult to adapt to. Good mixup, bad go-to.

when you pressure, instead of just going to town on a person's shield think about it as funneling their options. Then if they don't react or you have the clear opportunity, you can try to shield poke. But the one of biggest things about pressure is forcing your opponent to be unsettled and have to take an OoS option that you anticipate and are prepared to punish hard.
It also has a lot to do with conditioning so that you can get easy grabs later.
Very nuanced and interesting aspect of the game. Much more complicated than lolbreakhisshield-ohhegotout

 

[BTmoney]

shield pressure should not be about breaking shields ever.
but it is pretty cool I guess...

westballz pressure is intense, but it's not exceedingly difficult to adapt to. Good mixup, bad go-to.

The first sentence I don't believe at all. If you get multiple opportunities to pressure within an arbitrary amount of time and your opponent does not escape it optimally (which is often the case) then their shield will certainly degenerate more than they would like. If you get another shield pressure opportunity while their shield is weak, it is in your best interest to attempt to break it and chose a punishment of your choice. You gain the ability to get a free kill or perform a combo with less initial variables since they are not moving and you don't have to worry about hit confirming or anything like that.

But the second sentence sums it up.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

ive had people show me the the pressure and i see wes do it, looks so unorthodox but its brilliant and its ****.
can someone dumb down the steps involved cuz the timing is weird but just like anything with falco, it can be accomplished. Yea i need some way serious help with my pressure.

 

[genkaku]

The first sentence I don't believe at all. If you get multiple opportunities to pressure within an arbitrary amount of time and your opponent does not escape it optimally (which is often the case) then their shield will certainly degenerate more than they would like. If you get another shield pressure opportunity while their shield is weak, it is in your best interest to attempt to break it and chose a punishment of your choice. You gain the ability to get a free kill or perform a combo with less initial variables since they are not moving and you don't have to worry about hit confirming or anything like that.

why try to break shields when at that point you can easily shieldpoke for a fraction of the risk? Pokes are amazing.

I mean, if the guy is giving you a shield break for free by all means take it, but assuming that your opponent is competent I don't think that looking for shield breaks is beneficial in comparison to pretty much anything else.

Capitalize on your time on a shield. It's a precious commodity with so many opportunities if you know how to work with them.

 

[BTmoney]

Capitalize on your time on a shield. It's a precious commodity with so many opportunities if you know how to work with them.

Capitalizing is not settling for a poke. That is not the maximum punishment available for forcing your opponent to shield.
If you have the option to break a shield or go for a poke what should you pick? The answer is break the shield.
If you lack the ability to break a shield/multishine then that means you are lacking as a player. It does not mean that shield breaking is lower quality option. Lacking ability does not make for good play in a competitive setting. It may work for out just fine but it is a sub-optimal decision.

Now that is not directed at you at all, I myself have trouble multishining. But every time I settle for a poke on a worn down shield I am conceding to my inability as a player and playing in a manner that is not conducive to maximizing my chance to win. Once again it may work on the case to case, but it is never the best option (unless they are at kill percent and you d-tilt or something like that, but once again that is a part of decision making).

 

[genkaku]

no offense taken or anything, don't worry about it.
Pokes are amazing. If you think they're sub-optimal then you need to watch some vids and keep a count. Pokes are not settling at all unless you do something weird that you can't convert. Saying that they're worth less than a break is like saying that going for gimps is conceding to your inability as a player to build them up to 300%.

In my experience shields breaking is as much the other player's fault as it is yours. I'd much rather take the earlier opportunities than hope that they're just gonna sit there and take it because they're bad.
Remember, buffered roll beats even unstaled multishines. Samus's up B and some other stuff too. Multishine is not unbeatable, or else westballz pressure would be the only viable pressure.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

my double and triple shines are solid as hell, any need to go beyond that?

 

[ElloEddy]

practice lol it easy

 

[Squirt]

my double and triple shines are solid as hell, any need to go beyond that?

I would say yes. Can you triple shine on someone's shield? or just in thin air?

I would say a good way to practice is to start cataloging your options, simple write them down. In the simplest cases, if you switch between shinegrab and double shine it will work. But if you want to break shields you will need to be able to multishine around 4-5 times and then upsmash out of it, but this is hard because they can shield DI away.

Over all I would say start taking a look at all of your options. Something I would love to perfect is being able to turn around while dealing out pressure so you can continue to deal out nairs.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

can someone explain the timing for the elevated shine cuz i cant seem to get it just barely off the ground
just go through like ur explaining something like shffling to a noob

 

[BTmoney]

no offense taken or anything, don't worry about it.
Pokes are amazing. If you think they're sub-optimal then you need to watch some vids and keep a count. Pokes are not settling at all unless you do something weird that you can't convert. Saying that they're worth less than a break is like saying that going for gimps is conceding to your inability as a player to build them up to 300%.

In my experience shields breaking is as much the other player's fault as it is yours. I'd much rather take the earlier opportunities than hope that they're just gonna sit there and take it because they're bad.
Remember, buffered roll beats even unstaled multishines. Samus's up B and some other stuff too. Multishine is not unbeatable, or else westballz pressure would be the only viable pressure.

A buffered roll (most rolls are invincible on the 4th frame) does not beat multishines. A Fox (because I am more acquainted with fox) shine is +4 on shield. Iirc Fox can string together shines every 4 frames (If I'm wrong then it's faster than that). When fox's hitlag ends, the person in shield is in shield stun for 4 frames. When your shield stun is over Fox can shine you again keeping you in shield stun leaving you with 0 (or even less depending on if I was wrong before) frames to act. If the Fox is slow but not slower than 8 frames from doing it perfectly, you will get shined out of your roll.

Now you have to account for stale shines. There is not stale shine frame data available as far as I know but I imagine a +4 move will not go to -4 (that's how slow it would have to be in order for you to roll and be invincible as the second shine came out) when staled. -8 from fresh to stale is a stupidly large difference.

Now Falco can multishine every 6 frames (or once again if I am wrong then it is faster) so using the same chain of logic you get at most 2 frames to act when you are correctly getting multishined. A roll is once again 4 frames and too slow.

This explanation is probably contains some fallacies but despite the poor explanation you can most definitely at best lock someone into shield stun (at least as Fox) or at worst make it so that if they chose any OoS option they will be shined. If someone can roll out of your multishines you are doing it too slow. The only option that might beat multishining is Falco having staled shines and Fox doing a frame perfect or close to it shine OoS. That and a samus up B.

Someone else can probably tell you better but at its core what I am saying is true.

 

[genkaku]

is that true? I could have sworn that in the huge discussion about westballz pressure in the falco boards a couple of months back leffen and someone else said that multishines lose to rolls and some other things. I don't know frame data, but I've been able to roll out of multishines myself.
If multishines really are that legit then more power to you, though. Thanks for the info.

 

[ElloEddy]

is that true? I could have sworn that in the huge discussion about westballz pressure in the falco boards a couple of months back leffen and someone else said that multishines lose to rolls and some other things. I don't know frame data, but I've been able to roll out of multishines myself.
If multishines really are that legit then more power to you, though. Thanks for the info.

frame perfect shines on shield ..you cant do anything..your shield will break..but thats almost humanly impossible

 

[Moooose]

You can roll out.

 

[BTmoney]

You can roll out.

I want you to interpret this
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...project-updated-8-13-07-now-with-color.109595

I see 1 frame to act in the multishining data. You cannot roll in 1 frame or really do anything and that is basically in line with what I said before. You have no 1 frame option to beat that with other than a perfectly timed samus up B. I can't imagine Fox losing 3 frames of advantage do to a stale shine so I don't see how you would roll out of that.


With Falco you have 2 frames to act. I'm not sure how strong the stale mechanic is in melee but you would have to lose 2 frames of advantage in order to roll out of Falco's multishine. You very well may.

edit:
if you guys wanna look at westballz stuff there is info on waveshining on shield, which is similar to what he is doing

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

This is the new trendy pressure. I don't blame em though, looks so intimidating.

 

[BTmoney]

This is the new trendy pressure. I don't blame em though, looks so intimidating.

He's the only one I've ever seen do what he does. I don't think it is all that good once you adjust to it because it just creates bigger holes. I wanted him to come here and defend it but I guess not lols

Edit:
@Others
Also keep in mind I am defending multishining not waveshining (which is essentially what westballz is doing)

 

[Construct]

You can buffer roll out of frame perfect multishines after the first one. And that's frame-perfect, which we honestly shouldn't even be discussing to begin with. Against the doubleshine waveshine variant it gives a much larger window to escape. It's very effective and intimidating pressure, but not game-breaking or inescapable by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[BTmoney]

You can buffer roll out of frame perfect multishines after the first one. And that's frame-perfect, which we honestly shouldn't even be discussing to begin with. Against the doubleshine waveshine variant it gives a much larger window to escape. It's very effective and intimidating pressure, but not game-breaking or inescapable by any stretch of the imagination.

Please substantiate your claim and for what character?
If you can roll (a good roll is 4 frames I am not concerned about the bad rolls) out of fox's multishine then that means he loses almost or half of the hitstun when the move is stale. I am skeptical to believe that but I will not deny hard numbers.


Actually now that I think about it, the guide I linked to would say that you are wrong. The second shine in the guide is stale assuming it was actually performed with TAS and not just hypothesized.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

what are the steps to this new pressure, ive had a few people literally do it on a empty contoller slot and they wud break it in seconds
and i dont care about the breaking, right now i just want to get in and get out with safe options rather than getting caught in a shine or jumping too high wen i try this. So just someone dumb down the steps in ballz deep pressure. shine->elevated shine inches off the ground? how do u get the shine the close to the ground, i hav trouble getting that second shine so any1 can fix that, wud be cool

 

[ElloEddy]

He's the only one I've ever seen do what he does. I don't think it is all that good once you adjust to it because it just creates bigger holes. I wanted him to come here and defend it but I guess not lols

Edit:
@Others
Also keep in mind I am defending multishining not waveshining (which is essentially what westballz is doing)

i feel like its good to make ppl who sit in shield ....to stop lol n good for breaking low shields

 

[Badge]

Please substantiate your claim and for what character?
If you can roll (a good roll is 4 frames I am not concerned about the bad rolls) out of fox's multishine then that means he loses almost or half of the hitstun when the move is stale. I am skeptical to believe that but I will not deny hard numbers.


Actually now that I think about it, the guide I linked to would say that you are wrong. The second shine in the guide is stale assuming it was actually performed with TAS and not just hypothesized.

I actually did a quick frame advance test on Dolphin earlier today to see what the shield stun for Fox's shine is when staled. I wanted to check for some weird Dolphin or NTSC/PAL incosistencies as I got slightly different results from the thread you linked, but Magus' data is in line with what I experienced. shield stun for Fox's shine is 4 frames unstaled and 3 frames starting with the second successive shine (and only 2 frame for the 10th shine in succession). There's also one frame between the end of hitlag and the soonest start of a jump out of shine. So, there's a one frame hole through which you can take the hit but not escape after the first shine.

The second shine onwards have 1 frame less advantage and you also have to delay your jump by 2 frames because you have to fall. This gives an additional 3 frames for the opponent to escape, which is just enough to roll out with rolls invincible on frame 4. (The shine is essentially used with a 3 frame disadvantage from neutral position).

The multishine frame data in the thread you linked isn't entirely correct: The second shine hits on frame 9 and thus the hitlag and also the shield stun ends one frame sooner, but the jump can still only be started on frame 16. Also, there's the one frame less shield stun due to stale. As it's sufficient to be invincible on the frame that shine hits this gives us a large enough window to roll out.

Edit: I stopped to think for a minute and noticed shine there is one frame between shine being jcable and hitlag ending, but the results stay the same.

 

[Construct]

Please substantiate your claim and for what character?
If you can roll (a good roll is 4 frames I am not concerned about the bad rolls) out of fox's multishine then that means he loses almost or half of the hitstun when the move is stale. I am skeptical to believe that but I will not deny hard numbers.


Actually now that I think about it, the guide I linked to would say that you are wrong. The second shine in the guide is stale assuming it was actually performed with TAS and not just hypothesized.

I gave you a link to "substantiate my claim". Try clicking on the text, it's this cool thing called a hyperlink.

 

[BTmoney]

I gave you a link to "substantiate my claim". Try clicking on the text, it's this cool thing called a hyperlink.

You type as I offended you.
On my phone it looks more like red text than a hyperlink. There also is not a mouse to drag over the text with on my phone.
My apologies, I trusted two guides that reputable communities members (with a history of being correct and informed on abstract matters) put together over your statement. I would not expect them to be incorrect or marginally useful and stand that way for years. If a similar situation were to happen in the future, meaning 2 well received guides pertaining to frame data have stood for years but were wrong, I would be inclined to believe the guide (because I personally would have performed it in dolphin and accounted for stale mechanics so I assumed they did, which they did not, and because I figured over the course of years it would have been corrected or admittedly inaccurate) over a statement I thought at first had no vet.
Excuse me but I believe my train of thought was justified and reasonable.

I actually did a quick frame advance test on Dolphin earlier today to see what the shield stun for Fox's shine is when staled. I wanted to check for some weird Dolphin or NTSC/PAL incosistencies as I got slightly different results from the thread you linked, but Magus' data is in line with what I experienced. shield stun for Fox's shine is 4 frames unstaled and 3 frames starting with the second successive shine (and only 2 frame for the 10th shine in succession). There's also one frame between the end of hitlag and the soonest start of a jump out of shine. So, there's a one frame hole through which you can take the hit but not escape after the first shine.

The second shine onwards have 1 frame less advantage and you also have to delay your jump by 2 frames because you have to fall. This gives an additional 3 frames for the opponent to escape, which is just enough to roll out with rolls invincible on frame 4. (The shine is essentially used with a 3 frame disadvantage from neutral position).

The multishine frame data in the thread you linked isn't entirely correct: The second shine hits on frame 9 and thus the hitlag and also the shield stun ends one frame sooner, but the jump can still only be started on frame 16. Also, there's the one frame less shield stun due to stale. As it's sufficient to be invincible on the frame that shine hits this gives us a large enough window to roll out.

Edit: I stopped to think for a minute and noticed shine there is one frame between shine being jcable and hitlag ending, but the results stay the same.

Good find. Info needs to be spread/fixed. I might just get dolphin myself.

 

[WestBallz]

U can punish rolls with my double shine by dashing the second u land into the direction they rolled in.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

wow it seems like when you master the timing for the second shine and you are perfectly reading rolls, you are just dominating them onstage.
i gotta learn that so westballz when you go in for your shines whats your mindset for getting the perfect height on the elevated shine cuz i dont get that height and when i waveland im too high so i cud get punished

 

[WestBallz]

wow it seems like when you master the timing for the second shine and you are perfectly reading rolls, you are just dominating them onstage.
i gotta learn that so westballz when you go in for your shines whats your mindset for getting the perfect height on the elevated shine cuz i dont get that height and when i waveland im too high so i cud get punished

alright so a good way to practice my technique is to just try jump shining until u get that perfect height where u see urself barely get off the ground. I slide my finger from x to b pretty fast and i practiced it until i found the exact timing for it. Then after u get the timing down for the perfect height u wanna practice jumping out of your shine into the fastest R you can possibly do. if u do it right u can double shine so fast that its almost impossible to get punished. Watch 4:48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAZYGgnKlA8 the window to get punished is actually extremely small if u do it right. Its extremely hard to do what i did there but if u can consistently do it youll be a pro falco player in no time :D

 

[ElloEddy]

alright so a good way to practice my technique is to just try jump shining until u get that perfect height where u see urself barely get off the ground. I slide my finger from x to b pretty fast and i practiced it until i found the exact timing for it. Then after u get the timing down for the perfect height u wanna practice jumping out of your shine into the fastest R you can possibly do. if u do it right u can double shine so fast that its almost impossible to get punished. Watch 4:48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAZYGgnKlA8 the window to get punished is actually extremely small if u do it right. Its extremely hard to do what i did there but if u can consistently do it youll be a pro falco player in no time :D

i have a question for you , like when do you know to go for that type of pressure ...i can do it and its like when i do go for it ppl roll before ..or they just get shield stabbed ......lol ..ive done it more often to lower level players though

 

[WestBallz]

i have a question for you , like when do you know to go for that type of pressure ...i can do it and its like when i do go for it ppl roll before ..or they just get shield stabbed ......lol ..ive done it more often to lower level players though

i go for it all the time see how they react to it. Then youll be more in their head if they react to it the same way over and over. The only real option is roll or amazingly timed good oos options and doubleshine waveland down is great for rolls because once u finish u can dash right out of it into the direction they rolled in....even if u aren't fast enough falco can just go in with a laser instead of a follow up punish.

 

[AvengerAngel]

alright so a good way to practice my technique is to just try jump shining until u get that perfect height where u see urself barely get off the ground. I slide my finger from x to b pretty fast and i practiced it until i found the exact timing for it. Then after u get the timing down for the perfect height u wanna practice jumping out of your shine into the fastest R you can possibly do. if u do it right u can double shine so fast that its almost impossible to get punished. Watch 4:48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAZYGgnKlA8 the window to get punished is actually extremely small if u do it right. Its extremely hard to do what i did there but if u can consistently do it youll be a pro falco player in no time :D

Isn't that a bit risky? I mean I know that if your opponent doesn't expect that, he has no time to SEE what you're doing and react to it. But once he figures out what you're doing can't he just ANTICIPATE you with defensive options such as shield DI + OOS aerials or even a shield grab at the right time?
Sometimes I get shield grabbed when doing simple multishines because if I get predictable with them and the shine is staled my opponent just waits for the second shine to come out and then does something to punish me, but it might be a technical error on my side, I dunno.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

4:48 = the fastest **** ive ever seen
wes got so fast damn, i thought axe was the fastest falco of 2013 but that was sik, and the pressure is so godlike, its so "in your face" especially how you had that shiek back towards the edge, he really was ****ed.
good ****, ill practice the timing cuz this is the best thing ive seen in a while. ggs mang


4:14-4:20
rofl **** of the year right there

 

[Bones0]

4:48 = the fastest **** ive ever seen
wes got so fast damn, i thought axe was the fastest falco of 2013 but that was sik, and the pressure is so godlike, its so "in your face" especially how you had that shiek back towards the edge, he really was ****ed.
good ****, ill practice the timing cuz this is the best thing ive seen in a while. ggs mang


4:14-4:20
rofl **** of the year right there

You have to be careful about judging speed based on YouTube videos. They play at 30 fps so if you have a vid that's recorded at not quite 60 fps and then it's uploaded to 30 fps on YouTube, you're missing half the frames. Not saying Westballz isn't fast of course, just that if the video's frame rate isn't 60 fps, the pressure will seem a lot safer than it really is. It's not even hard to get shield grabbed when you're waveshining in place in front of someone, and adding in extra frames for airdodging makes it even less safe.

Besides, you should just get ahead of the curve so you can beat people who are prepared for doubleshines.

 

[WestBallz]

You have to be careful about judging speed based on YouTube videos. They play at 30 fps so if you have a vid that's recorded at not quite 60 fps and then it's uploaded to 30 fps on YouTube, you're missing half the frames. Not saying Westballz isn't fast of course, just that if the video's frame rate isn't 60 fps, the pressure will seem a lot safer than it really is. It's not even hard to get shield grabbed when you're waveshining in place in front of someone, and adding in extra frames for airdodging makes it even less safe.

Besides, you should just get ahead of the curve so you can beat people who are prepared for doubleshines.

i dunno i dont see myself getting grabbed to much out of it

 

[ElloEddy]

4:48 = the fastest **** ive ever seen
wes got so fast damn, i thought axe was the fastest falco of 2013 but that was sik, and the pressure is so godlike, its so "in your face" especially how you had that shiek back towards the edge, he really was ****ed.
good ****, ill practice the timing cuz this is the best thing ive seen in a while. ggs mang


4:14-4:20
rofl **** of the year right there

axe movement is a bit faster........lol i seen them both in person at apex and axe falco still the fastest

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

yea guys, lol i was questioning whether or not that was fox out there. but good **** anyway and im puttin in a lot of work towards getting better.
how do i change my name cuz my tag is jhfalcomain, **** rocketpowerchill

 

[BTmoney]

yea guys, lol i was questioning whether or not that was fox out there. but good **** anyway and im puttin in a lot of work towards getting better.
how do i change my name cuz my tag is jhfalcomain, **** rocketpowerchill

Get a premium account

 

[Bones0]

i dunno i dont see myself getting grabbed to much out of it

Yeah, I'm surprised no one really goes for grabs vs. you, honestly, but I guess they just don't think it's worth the risk since they can just roll out and be a lot safer. I've watched all your sets vs. S2J and he almost always gets out of shine pressure. Although, he seems to do that vs. everyone. I think he's just gdlk when it comes to getting out of pressure. lol I think it might also be a Falcon thing. His stomp OoS + roll options just seem like they always work...

 

[ElloEddy]

yea guys, lol i was questioning whether or not that was fox out there. but good **** anyway and im puttin in a lot of work towards getting better.
how do i change my name cuz my tag is jhfalcomain, **** rocketpowerchill

btw ..this is sled i was helping you ont twitch the otherday