how to pressure like westballz help plz!!!!!!!!!

[Rocketpowerchill]

^ what up sled
ive been maintaining standard pressure on shields recently in sets because i believe you shouldnt do things in matches that you cant do in practice as it makes you worse. idk lol, but falcos awesome livlongmelee

 

[WestBallz]

Yeah, I'm surprised no one really goes for grabs vs. you, honestly, but I guess they just don't think it's worth the risk since they can just roll out and be a lot safer. I've watched all your sets vs. S2J and he almost always gets out of shine pressure. Although, he seems to do that vs. everyone. I think he's just gdlk when it comes to getting out of pressure. lol I think it might also be a Falcon thing. His stomp OoS + roll options just seem like they always work...

i dont think u know what you are talking about. Rolling and grabbing against my doubleshines are really bad. And id love to see you or anyone else try to grab me out of my doubleshines or roll. Play me and u wouldn't be saying such stupid nonsense.

 

[Bones0]

i dont think u know what you are talking about. Rolling and grabbing against my doubleshines are really bad. And id love to see you or anyone else try to grab me out of my doubleshines or roll. Play me and u wouldn't be saying such stupid nonsense.

0:23
0:26
1:00
1:05
1:14
1:18
1:38
1:45
2:28
2:37
3:05
3:18

Those are situations from game 1 where you engaged in (what I would consider) shield pressure and took either nothing or almost nothing from the situation. I'm not trying to call you out or anything. I just think spacies need to move away from the old fashioned shield pressure they are used to. People learned how to get out and even get hits during it so well that you usually don't see top players getting hit by shield pressure. Of course, I'm not suggesting everyone stop shield pressuring in general. There's still plenty of situations where pressuring them is both safe for you and dangerous for them, but I don't think every time they shield is that type of situation. Actively engaging opponents' shields in the same way with a bunch of shines just doesn't seem like the best course of action anymore. There's much more promise in spacing away from their shield or backing out of pressure sooner than normal for reads on rolls, jumps, and attacks. People already do stuff like that, such as cross up nair, hold shield, and then punish whatever aerial OoS they hit your shield with.

 

[MrDizzle]

alright so a good way to practice my technique is to just try jump shining until u get that perfect height where u see urself barely get off the ground. I slide my finger from x to b pretty fast and i practiced it until i found the exact timing for it. Then after u get the timing down for the perfect height u wanna practice jumping out of your shine into the fastest R you can possibly do.

What's the advantage of doing the double jump immediate waveland over grounded multishines?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

it gives u more oppurtunities to punish as u can read their roll and the higher shine will **** up shields more efficiently. also it looks sik, it symbolizes some of the highest tehnical abilities in the game
most importantly it makes a sik beat and check out 4:48 wes okami
also im puttin in hella work towards getting this timing down good ****

 

[WestBallz]

0:23
0:26
1:00
1:05
1:14
1:18
1:38
1:45
2:28
2:37
3:05
3:18

Those are situations from game 1 where you engaged in (what I would consider) shield pressure and took either nothing or almost nothing from the situation. I'm not trying to call you out or anything. I just think spacies need to move away from the old fashioned shield pressure they are used to. People learned how to get out and even get hits during it so well that you usually don't see top players getting hit by shield pressure. Of course, I'm not suggesting everyone stop shield pressuring in general. There's still plenty of situations where pressuring them is both safe for you and dangerous for them, but I don't think every time they shield is that type of situation. Actively engaging opponents' shields in the same way with a bunch of shines just doesn't seem like the best course of action anymore. There's much more promise in spacing away from their shield or backing out of pressure sooner than normal for reads on rolls, jumps, and attacks. People already do stuff like that, such as cross up nair, hold shield, and then punish whatever aerial OoS they hit your shield with.

at 23 i forced him to the ledge which resulted in my stage control
at 26 i hit his shield and made him move and i followed up with a punish shine shortly after
at 1:00 wasn't really shield pressure it was an attempt to follow up
at 1:05 i followed up with a traded dair

this concludes my theory of u not knowing what u are talking about. to lazy to check the rest but u get my point. so yeah my opinion of u is some noob who thinks he knows what hes talking about cuz he watches alot of youtube videoes.

 

[Warhawk]

I don't know how you don't see the pre-ban leffen comparisons lol.

 

[BTmoney]

I didn't know people still spoke to each other like that on the internet lol.

 

[Ziodyne]

Its the internet...

Westballz always keeps it real. Also, I don't think Wes is anywhere near as bad as leffen was in terms of internet behavior (though tbh, I didn't really have anything against him lol). Leffen sometimes felt like he was actively trying to make other people feel ****ty. Sometimes even felt like he was screaming at people online for small stuff lol

 

[BTmoney]

Its the internet...

Westballz always keeps it real. Also, I don't think Wes is anywhere near as bad as leffen was in terms of internet behavior (though tbh, I didn't really have anything against him lol). Leffen sometimes felt like he was actively trying to make other people feel ****ty. Sometimes even felt like he was screaming at people online for small stuff lol

Gosh I didn't notice!

That's the thing, there is a difference between being real/objective (a la Umbreon, people think he is abrasive for whatever reason. If being objective offends anyone then that person has thin skin) and rudely arguing through ad hominem (everyone's favorite phrase). Bones0 is the one keeping it real. Look at his post again.

He's no Leffen but what Bones0 said is entirely true. And there actually is no defense if you believe that good decision making is conducive to winning (which you should).

You can also win by repeatedly making bad/sub-par decisions. Your play style is just not conducive to winning and probably gets confused with good decision making.





inb4Isucksomyopinionisinvalid

edit:
Also I'm not speaking badly of Leffen. I read his heartfelt twitter thing. I feel bad for the dude./offtopic

 

[MrDizzle]

it gives u more oppurtunities to punish as u can read their roll and the higher shine will **** up shields more efficiently.

Can you elaborate on this please? Both points are not obvious to me.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

actually, i dont know what im talking about, listen to the veterans cuz im ur typical scrub falco
but i believe techskill is the most important part of the game and its cool watching new crazy **** like that pressure. one of the oddest and hardest timings in the game but its all practice

 

[Cactuar]

Three statements:


Long strings of continuous shield pressure are overrated. Falco has all the tools he needs to go from engaging on the opponent's shield to either safely retreating and establishing the beginning of his next action, land a grab, or follow an immediate escape attempt by the opponent. These drawn out shield pressure setups rely on the opponent either not knowing how to react properly or failing the execution in properly punishing the string. Top level play is determined by good decision making. Extended shield pressure spam is only consistently successful against bad/uninformed decision making.

Extended shield pressure is essentially pubstomp tech. It'll take you a certain distance, but you'll need to have a lot more depth to get any further.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Westballz is not just his shield pressure. The exchange between him and bones is a good example of this. He knows that the shield pressure itself is not invincible. The important component is being able to capitalize on the openings it creates. If the opponent doesn't know what to do, boss them around and shield pressure till you penetrate. If the opponent has enough awareness to escape in the windows that he provides, look to follow that escape. If the opponent is able to punish the shield pressure without fail, tag them and get the **** out, because your shield pressure isn't creating an opening, its exposing you.

We had a brief exchange about how he was shield pressuring Armada, which I think he summed up by saying "I don't."

Don't get caught up in the flash. Look at it vs different levels of players and see how the interaction plays out as a whole, not just the parts where he is hitting their shield.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop being such carebears about forum behavior. People are who they are, and personality tends to play a big part in playstyle. Unless they exhibit extreme toxicity, ignore the parts you don't like and try to read it for the content, not the presentation.

>.>

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

all you need to do with falco is space well, accurate lazers at different heights, dont get hit, and gain stage control

 

[Deleted member]

Extended shield pressure spam is only consistently successful against bad/uninformed decision making.

Stop being such carebears about forum behavior. People are who they are, and personality tends to play a big part in playstyle. Unless they exhibit extreme toxicity, ignore the parts you don't like and try to read it for the content, not the presentation.

This is pretty much this entire thread.

bones: using pressure to fish for an abusable response is a respectable method to transfer into a conversion. look deeper.

everyone else: fuck your momma with the LA Raiders.

 

[BTmoney]

This is pretty much this entire thread.

bones: using pressure to fish for an abusable response is a respectable method to transfer into a conversion. look deeper.

everyone else: fuck your momma with the LA Raiders.

Lol!

And isn't this what we talked about before "Max" (if you don't mind me calling you that, I suppose now you can call me by my name since we have an intimate relationship)? Or do you not feel the same way about Falco's on shield game as you do with Fox?

I don't think Falco on shield is better than Fox on shield so I'm going to predict your answer and say no because Falco doesn't have the option coverage or movement options that Fox has so shield pressuring as Fox is more nonsensical than it is with Falco. For the same reason you said why double shining isn't (as) bad with Falco.

Don't get caught up in the flash. Look at it vs different levels of players and see how the interaction plays out as a whole, not just the parts where he is hitting their shield.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop being such carebears about forum behavior. People are who they are, and personality tends to play a big part in playstyle. Unless they exhibit extreme toxicity, ignore the parts you don't like and try to read it for the content, not the presentation.

I guess that this is in part directed at me although it also seems to be targeted at someone's percvied or hypothetical stance. I don't actually care a lot about this and I don't think anything you said is too far from what I or Bones0 said. Other than I disagree with the forum behavior. I am also within my right to comment on it, just like how anyone else is within their right to say as they please. I just don't exactly care and that gets lost over the internet.

 

[Superspright]

Powershield/Lightshield SDI->Grab

Powershield obviously being better...and it would avoid all of these shenanigans. It's not really done all that much but while you're standing there multishining you get grabbed.

 

[BTmoney]

Powershield/Lightshield SDI->Grab

Powershield obviously being better...and it would avoid all of these shenanigans. It's not really done all that much but while you're standing there multishining you get grabbed.

What and who is this a response to?

 

[Superspright]

It's in response to all this talk of triple shine pressure...it's not that good if people are adapted to it obviously. It works amazing against scrubs.

 

[BTmoney]

It's in response to all this talk of triple shine pressure...it's not that good if people are adapted to it obviously. It works amazing against scrubs.

I think this thread became arguing about frame data lol I thought it was sorted at this point. I don't think it is quite that black and white but now agree that indeed it is overrated.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol!

And isn't this what we talked about before "Max" (if you don't mind me calling you that, I suppose now you can call me by my name since we have an intimate relationship)? Or do you not feel the same way about Falco's on shield game as you do with Fox?

I don't think Falco on shield is better than Fox on shield so I'm going to predict your answer and say no because Falco doesn't have the option coverage or movement options that Fox has so shield pressuring as Fox is more nonsensical than it is with Falco. For the same reason you said why double shining isn't bad with Falco.

I wouldn't say that faceless names over the internet constitutes intimacy, but yes I prefer to be called Max.

[3/26/2013 3:53:42 PM] Victor Haynes: I also should probably practice more
[3/26/2013 3:53:43 PM] Victor Haynes: outside of matches
[3/26/2013 3:53:53 PM] Umbreon: depends what you want to practice
[3/26/2013 3:53:56 PM] Umbreon: fox is hard to practice
[3/26/2013 3:53:59 PM] Victor Haynes: movement really
[3/26/2013 3:54:15 PM] Victor Haynes: that and double shines. specifically double
[3/26/2013 3:54:22 PM] Umbreon: don't learn double shine
[3/26/2013 3:54:24 PM] Victor Haynes: I don't think triple or beyond that is the most useful thing
[3/26/2013 3:54:40 PM] Victor Haynes: Lol because of some negative connotation you have with it
[3/26/2013 3:54:41 PM] Victor Haynes: right?
[3/26/2013 3:54:48 PM] Umbreon: if you want to learn movement, that's correct, but learn action into action sequences
[3/26/2013 3:54:51 PM] Umbreon: l cancel into dash
[3/26/2013 3:54:54 PM] Umbreon: for example
[3/26/2013 3:54:56 PM] Umbreon: super useful
[3/26/2013 3:55:01 PM] Victor Haynes: I do like that
[3/26/2013 3:55:02 PM] Victor Haynes: with fox
[3/26/2013 3:55:08 PM] Victor Haynes: esp
[3/26/2013 3:55:35 PM] Victor Haynes: But I knew you'd have something to say about double shining lol.
[3/26/2013 3:55:39 PM] Victor Haynes: It literally is good
[3/26/2013 3:56:32 PM] Umbreon: i mean
[3/26/2013 3:56:34 PM] Umbreon: no?
[3/26/2013 3:56:35 PM] Umbreon: it's not
[3/26/2013 3:56:41 PM] Victor Haynes: elaborate
[3/26/2013 3:56:49 PM] Umbreon: what does the second shine do that the first one didn't
[3/26/2013 3:57:45 PM] Victor Haynes: You can literally always (if your character has a 4 frame roll) beat any post shine on shield option with a c-stick roll
[3/26/2013 3:58:04 PM] Victor Haynes: I need to check shine grab (again) but everything else and I'm pretty sure even that
[3/26/2013 3:58:15 PM] Umbreon: that begs the question
[3/26/2013 3:58:20 PM] Umbreon: why did you shine on shield?
[3/26/2013 3:58:37 PM] Victor Haynes: because your aerial hit shield. But I see where you are going with this
[3/26/2013 3:58:44 PM] Umbreon: why did you aerial a shield?
[3/26/2013 3:58:58 PM] Umbreon: why are you using the wrong correction to fix what is already an obvious mistake?
[3/26/2013 3:58:59 PM] Victor Haynes: Because who needs decision making? Who needs openings? You're fox
[3/26/2013 3:59:11 PM] Victor Haynes: That's not serious
[3/26/2013 3:59:15 PM] Umbreon: well at least now we're on the same page
[3/26/2013 3:59:19 PM] Umbreon: i know you're joking
[3/26/2013 3:59:22 PM] Victor Haynes: lol
[3/26/2013 3:59:22 PM] Umbreon: you see my point right
[3/26/2013 3:59:37 PM] Victor Haynes: yeah I saw it before I asked it. I just figured you'd say it lol
[3/26/2013 3:59:45 PM] Umbreon: why set up high-risk engagements with a character that gets molested so easily
[3/26/2013 3:59:54 PM] Victor Haynes: essentially shield pressure is a product of you doing somthing wrong in the first place
[3/26/2013 4:00:23 PM] Umbreon: shield pressure does have its uses, but to "go for shield pressure" with fox is wrong about 100% of the time
[3/26/2013 4:00:30 PM] Victor Haynes: I know that lol
[3/26/2013 4:00:54 PM] Victor Haynes: but if you hit on shield, which you probably shouldn't have, you should probably do something other than let go of your controller lol
[3/26/2013 4:01:10 PM] Umbreon: just jump
[3/26/2013 4:01:15 PM] Umbreon: fastest jump in the game
[3/26/2013 4:01:24 PM] Umbreon: shinegrab if you must be stupid
[3/26/2013 4:01:28 PM] Umbreon: don't double shine though
[3/26/2013 4:01:54 PM] Victor Haynes: I don't know man if your opponent is a human they are either gonna stay in shield or roll
[3/26/2013 4:02:04 PM] Victor Haynes: and get hit out of the roll
[3/26/2013 4:02:11 PM] Umbreon: ok
[3/26/2013 4:02:29 PM] Umbreon: so you hit them out of a roll in this fantasy
[3/26/2013 4:02:31 PM] Umbreon: now what
[3/26/2013 4:02:39 PM] Victor Haynes: hit confirm
[3/26/2013 4:02:53 PM] Victor Haynes: you can definitely hit confirm double shines, I won't argue multishining though
[3/26/2013 4:02:57 PM] Victor Haynes: which is pretty stupid
[3/26/2013 4:03:52 PM] Umbreon: so wait, you're going to shine, shine again after a few frames, hit them because your opponent also has perfect timing and fell for this, get hit by shine, and you're going to react to it and hit them again in the 15 frames of stun that they have, not counting your reaction as well
[3/26/2013 4:05:02 PM] Victor Haynes: Well I see people roll out of the very first shine a lot because the game literally allows you to do it and it's not that hard to hold the c-stick while you are in shield stun from the shine hitting your shield
[3/26/2013 4:05:34 PM] Victor Haynes: if they do that then you know the second shine will hit them, I won't concede that once the technicality isn't an issue that hitconfirming a double shine isn't that bad
[3/26/2013 4:05:49 PM] Umbreon: buffer roll out of shine pressure is a good answer to a bad fox tactic

 

[BTmoney]

I wouldn't say that faceless names over the internet constitutes intimacy, but yes I prefer to be called Max.

That depends on your definition of intimacy and or but probably not how sarcastic I may or may not sometimes be.

Alright Max, but what about Falco? I'm curios of what you think of him (and his shield pressure shenanigans) since he is not movement orientated like Fox.

edit:

I did do some more serious practicing again (Fox v. Peach of course) and I am pretty sold on your mentality. I got told I was playing "gay" which was actually very satisfying. I was able to abuse and impose the gayness of Fox onto my opponent of higher skill in ways I previously couldn't.

 

[ElloEddy]

this is what happens when i try to be like westballz lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EG51w7YFoY&feature=youtu.be

soon i shall master my tech skill

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

this is what happens when i try to be like westballz lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EG51w7YFoY&feature=youtu.be

soon i shall master my tech skill

i jammed a penny into a ****ty controller like you said. What should i do to practice that and how did you get that down so clean?

 

[ElloEddy]

i jammed a penny into a ****ty controller like you said. What should i do to practice that and how did you get that down so clean?

practice shield pressure, get that clean.. then learn double shine WD .....and then lol learn to double shine so your slightly off the floor and WD down and practice it on the shields and on the handicaped 0.0 5 dmg ration bowser it helps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtkuMRDtEQ watch that

 

[BTmoney]

this is what happens when i try to be like westballz lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EG51w7YFoY&feature=youtu.be

soon i shall master my tech skill

Nice tag. I'm assuming you're an ASAP fan (but who listens to the ASAP mob lmao) I respect him a lot more after long live ASAP came out. I thought he over achieved on it.

@Rocket Falco movement/tech is so easy once you play Fox lol

 

[ElloEddy]

Nice tag. I'm assuming you're an ASAP fan (but who listens to the ASAP mob lmao) I respect him a lot more after long live ASAP came out. I thought he over achieved on it.

@Rocket Falco movement/tech is so easy once you play Fox lol

yeah my real tags Sled but i must play with that A$AP tag on lol or it just aint right

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Nice tag. I'm assuming you're an ASAP fan (but who listens to the ASAP mob lmao) I respect him a lot more after long live ASAP came out. I thought he over achieved on it.

@Rocket Falco movement/tech is so easy once you play Fox lol

lol i play falco because i grew up watching shiz lambchops falco dittos, yea falcos tech is pretty easy since arials and shines are much slower than the fox ****. its a huge jumpstart to play falco and pick up fox rather than be some random shiek main who picks up fox
those posers just don't have the space animal mentality

 

[BTmoney]

Lol everyone, and I mean everyone, ****s on sheik mains

 

[Bones0]

Can you elaborate on this please? Both points are not obvious to me.

His entire quote was inaccurate... You can't punish rolls after an airborne shine unlike with grounded shines. The aerial shine also does nothing a grounded shine wouldn't to shields. They have the same amount of stun. The only advantage of aerial shines is that you can keep yourself safe from grabs and still shine pretty late and also utilize platforms immediately from your DJ.

Aerial drift, bro.

^My interpretation of your post.

This is pretty much this entire thread.

bones: using pressure to fish for an abusable response is a respectable method to transfer into a conversion. look deeper.

everyone else: fuck your momma with the LA Raiders.

I'm confused. My whole point was that Wes's pressure makes it much more difficult than it needs to be to capitalize on responses to pressure because he's airborne and wasting valuable frames. If you're saying that I need to look beyond punishing my opponent's OoS options/positioning, then I must admit I'm lost...

Powershield/Lightshield SDI->Grab

Powershield obviously being better...and it would avoid all of these shenanigans. It's not really done all that much but while you're standing there multishining you get grabbed.

Powershielding doesn't let you grab any earlier than normal... I do agree lightshielding + shield DIing is valuable, but it has some serious drawbacks. The lighter your shield, the more stun and shield damage you take from hits. I'm pretty sure Falco can quite easily lock opponents into shield if they are light shielding as long as he can drift far enough forward with his dairs. Either way, lightshield grabbing is super dumb because of how much stun you have, so even if you're spaced perfectly, it's super risky to throw out a grab almost twice as slowly as you would have been able to if you had hardshielded. I've said it before, but I think simply getting good at shield DIing with hard shield is next level metagame. It'll become just another element of spacing, and it will introduce more mixups because of people trying to mix up their timings, not to avoid grabs/OoS attacks, but to mess up their opponent's shield DI (and thus making them roll by accident). It's comparable to when people started tomahawking because opponents held shield expecting SHFFLs.

i jammed a penny into a ****ty controller like you said. What should i do to practice that and how did you get that down so clean?

I would jam another penny in for good measure.

But that's just my two cents.

 

[BTmoney]

What is this penny business?

 

[MrDizzle]

edit: ugh I give up on putting Max's IM log in spoilers. Anyone care to teach me how?
How is attacking a shield inherently a bad thing? I argue that it's advantageous to attack the shield of at least characters with bad offensive OOS options, such as DK. Attacking their shield opens them up for shield stabs later on, and at worst the game is reset to neutral after they roll. Against characters with good offensive OOS options I still think if one can theoretically perfect multi-shines, then the offensive OOS options will be beat, and the situation becomes similar to the previous case.

 

[ElloEddy]

What is this penny business?

penny to keep the controller blocking and , practice shield pressure...shine grabs etc..and put the dmg ration on 0.5 and handicap on with you at 1 and the controller at 9 ...

 

[BTmoney]

How is attacking a shield inherently a bad thing? I argue that it's advantageous to attack the shield of at least characters with bad offensive OOS options, such as DK. Attacking their shield opens them up for shield stabs later on, and at worst the game is reset to neutral after they roll. Against characters with good offensive OOS options I still think if one can theoretically perfect multi-shines, then the offensive OOS options will be beat, and the situation becomes similar to the previous case.

I'll share with you my knowledge (and interpretation) that Umbreon passed down to me (that I accept to be the truth). This goes for Fox specifically. Falco has completely different options.

You have to ask yourself why you hit shield in the first place. 100% of the time it is due to a mistake on your part or a bad decision. Aggression does not suit Fox's strength which essentially is waiting and abusing the limits of other characters or your ability to put yourself in a position to never be abused (except possibly against Marth imo). Most player's don't play perfectly true to that but it is the most efficient and correct way to play Fox. Shield pressuring as Fox is extended exposure to a realm of mistakes and punishes that you don't even need to acknowledge or know about if you played better in the first place. Don't focus on making a mistake (hitting shield) less of a mistake (shield pressuring as Fox) when you didn't have to make it in the first place. Even DK has a 3 frame OoS punish. Even if you can multishine you didn't need to in the first place because there was a safer and better option although it can work. It is suboptimal and would fall into the "limited" category that Umbreon's drastic improvement guide spoke on. If you don't have to limit yourself then don't.



Max (yet) can't convince me that double shining (specifically and no more than two shines as Fox) is bad though. Eventually you will make a mistake and hit shield so you might as well cover it with two shines because they literally cannot punishes you until after the second shine so you might as well get two then full jump out. Assuming your first shine is fresh. If you can't hit confirm the second then don't even bother with this. I think that is the most optimal line of play once you make a mistake but once again don't make the mistake when you don't have to.

 

[ruhtraeel]

if you can do it consistently like I can, you can doubleshine into SH 2 hit fair

 

[WestBallz]

His entire quote was inaccurate... You can't punish rolls after an airborne shine unlike with grounded shines. The aerial shine also does nothing a grounded shine wouldn't to shields.

Wrong. You can in fact punish rolls after a shine in the air. Ive done it many many many times. LOOOOOL noob with inaccurate information. Stop spreading bad info your making the noobs even noobier. In matter of fact i actually invented the doubleshine wd down to punish them ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFLLLLLLLLLLLLLL People need to stop listening to this complete utter noob

 

[MrDizzle]

Didn't know DK had such a fast OOS punish, I'm guessing it's his Up-B? I need to learn more frame data XD Thanks for clearing that up, now that chatlog makes a lot more sense to me.

I'll have to think so more about what I'll call the Umbreon paradigm. The Drastic Improvement post is a really good read and the most thorough and well-articulated Smash paradigm I've seen so far.

Wrong. You can in fact punish rolls after a shine in the air. Ive done it many many many times. LOOOOOL noob with inaccurate information. Stop spreading bad info your making the noobs even noobier. In matter of fact i actually invented the doubleshine wd down to punish them ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFLLLLLLLLLLLLLL People need to stop listening to this complete utter noob

Do you mind sharing what you think the advantages of the aerial shine are versus the grounded shine?

 

[Cactuar]

That ain't falco

 

[MrDizzle]

Good point, but wouldn't the lag from landing from the air dodge make it the shine after the waveland slower? SmashWiki says the lag is 10 frames (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Wavedash#Disadvantages_of_wavedashing).

 

[Cactuar]

The two situations being compared here are:

Scenario 1:
Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on first frame possible
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Airdodge Down
Airdodge Landing Lag

Scenario 2:
Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on second frame possible
Jump(Without Jumpsquat)
Airdodge Down
Airdodge Landing Lag

The total frames until you are actionable is actually lower when you do an aerial shine, assuming you will be doing a wavedash down in both scenarios.

Now, if we change the situations being compared to:

Scenario 1:

Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on first frame possible
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on first frame possible
Short hop

Scenario 2:
Shine
Jump(With Jumpsquat)
Shine on second frame possible
Jump(Without Jumpsquat)
Airdodge Down
Airdodge Landing Lag
Short hop

Scenario two becomes worse, because you need to add an action to get to the right position to begin your sh. This is not a fair comparison for the aerial shine though, as the intent of scenario 1 here is to do extended shield pressure or to aerial drift and escape.

The aerial shine to airdodge down is specifically to set up being able to chase the opponent's escape choice.

I would argue though, that grounded doubleshining into holding b to allow a delayed wd out of shield would accomplish the same thing as aerial wavedash down, but the movement would be awkward as ****, and would commit you in other ways, where the aerial shine puts you in standing instead of waiting in shine.