How to play Super Smash Brothers 64 Competitively.

[ballin4life]

There are a lot of counter arguments to what Star King says. For example, you can't dominate the scene if you specialize in Samus like Kabal has.

Jousuke?

 

[clubbadubba]

Jousuke has a video up of a 12 char battle vs someone else (might have been sima actually), so even though he mains samus he obviously plays the others. I think star king is right about foreign players. Just because we only ever see their main doesn't mean they don't play other characters. I thought Gerson was exclusively pika until I saw his luigi combo. Of course a combo isn't the same as playing with, but he apparently has at least some ability with at least one other character. We really just have no idea how many characters they played as to get as good as they are.

In NA we have kefit/sheer/kabal/megavolt/MATTS!, none of whom have gotten above A tier. The higher success rate seems to be on the side of players that play multiple characters.

Blink, SK said he was not against the idea, but it was ridiculous to put so much faith in the idea since it doesn't have any OBJECTIVE basis.

Also, Kefit is not "much better" than the people star king cited. And now that I think of it, kefit suffers a lot from not knowing how to play a lot of matchups. A problem he would not have if he understood multiple characters in the game.

 

[Battlecow]

Ehhhh he lost to like jaime's samus, let's be real that's not even bad

none of the people sk cited have tourney results, if you think kuz would beat kefit you're god damn ********

Like I said, it's true that the greats play multiple chars, but there are good explanations for why they do that that don't involve them being good BECAUSE they do that

 

[clubbadubba]

You sure have a way with words. Its perfectly realistic to see that happening. If you think its not then your just a stupid poo poo head. Am I doing it right?

Sheer's yoshi dominated kefit. Kuz can play yoshi at a level close to sheer. What's so farfetched about kuz beating kefit? And I never said they would beat kefit, I said Kefit isn't much better than them.

 

[AtotheZ]

I'm pretty sure if you get really good with one character in the game, it's not that hard for that skill to translate to other characters. Sure, there is always character specific stuff, but honestly I feel people like gerson, kikoushi, jousuke, and other people notorious for one character could play at pro level or close to it with nearly any of the other characters on the selection screen.

imo

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Sheer can use Ness, Fox, and Yoshi so wut?
And if someone goes all 1 character in a tournament, does it matter then? Josuke used Samus only it seems

I'm pretty sure if you get really good with one character in the game, it's not that hard for that skill to translate to other characters. Sure, there is always character specific stuff, but honestly I feel people like gerson, kikoushi, jousuke, and other people notorious for one character could play at pro level or close to it with nearly any of the other characters on the selection screen.

imo

Also this.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

kuz was only good because he used a keyboard like that scrub SK, but i think he's playing offline still tho

 

[Battlecow]

You sure have a way with words. Its perfectly realistic to see that happening. If you think its not then your just a stupid poo poo head. Am I doing it right?

Sheer's yoshi dominated kefit. Kuz can play yoshi at a level close to sheer. What's so farfetched about kuz beating kefit? And I never said they would beat kefit, I said Kefit isn't much better than them.

W/e kef and sheer didn't play in tourney

kuz would get body rocked

 

[B Link]

Blink, SK said he was not against the idea, but it was ridiculous to put so much faith in the idea since it doesn't have any OBJECTIVE basis.

We can't get perfect statistical evidence anyway/there is none so far (unless we believe a testimonial from kabal/kefit etc. that they used 1 character 100% of the time, and have a track record of their improvement). Assuming we can't get that, someone has to try it. So, I'm going to try it.

There's no data to analyze until you make some/have some.

EDIT: Actually, I have a bit of data already. I've been playing 100% pikachu for maybe 2 weeks straight and I'm improving at using pikachu against specific players and the specific match-ups we've been playing. The problem is people use whoever they want, whenever they want, so you rarely get focused improvement. Or maybe it's because I haven't asked for specific match-ups.

----

I should add this then:

Proposal 1: Choose one character and play only that character 100% of the time.
Proposal 1 (cont'd): Do the above, and then choose a couple of matchups to specialize in (choose the ones you have the most trouble with/expect to face in a tourney or serious match that you could lose).

Then play those match-ups as close to 100% of the time as you can (against the actual player you have difficulty with preferably, but this is usually not possible/the other player just won't want to do this with you)

Like I said, it's true that the greats play multiple chars, but there are good explanations for why they do that that don't involve them being good BECAUSE they do that

I agree. It's more of a consequence of them getting bored (or insert other reason(s) here) rather than an explanation for why they are good/why they improve(d)

I'm pretty sure if you get really good with one character in the game, it's not that hard for that skill to translate to other characters. Sure, there is always character specific stuff, but honestly I feel people like gerson, kikoushi, jousuke, and other people notorious for one character could play at pro level or close to it with nearly any of the other characters on the selection screen.

Of course, assuming they stopped using other characters and focused on a new one, lol. But if they started messing around with all 12 evenly, for example, I think that would detract from their ability to get really good at one.

 

[Yobolight]

I think Kefit is a bad example becaus from what I have seen he is such a good player because of excellent reaction time and a non-linear playstyle with the ability to adapt quickly. IMO he isn't good because he only plays Pikachu, but rather because he is naturally gifted at the game to the extent where he didn't need to do his homework to ace the test.

 

[B Link]

I think Kefit is a bad example becaus from what I have seen he is such a good player because of excellent reaction time and a non-linear playstyle with the ability to adapt quickly. IMO he isn't good because he only plays Pikachu, but rather because he is naturally gifted at the game to the extent where he didn't need to do his homework to ace the test.

I never said he's good only because he plays pikachu. Your giftedness can contribute to how good you are, no doubt. But the important question is: how should Kefit (or any player) improve?

What would you propose to answer that question? My proposal is stick to one character 100 percent of the time.

 

[Battlecow]

Dude kefit does a lot of really smart stuff. Could he be good with other characters? Yeah. Does he have encyclopedic situational knowledge that allows him to beat almost-as-skilled players? Also yes.

 

[SheerMadness]

I played Yoshi 95% of the time for like a solid 3 year period. It's why I'm good at the match ups other Yoshis suck at. But playing other chars (mainly Fox) that 5% was crucial in keeping me from getting burned out.

Kefit has match up issues because he really doesn't play online. Therefor he has little to no exposure to extremely high level mid and low tiers.

B Link won't have that problem because he plays online. I'd say rock on with your plan B Link. The real benefit is learning each match up at a much deeper level.

EDIT: Zenyore has been playing since like 2006. Kuz did improve pretty fast though. And no battlecattle Kefit isn't "much" better than either of them. In fact I'd say Zenyore would win that match up. Kuz/Kefit would be close.

 

[mrschmucker]

I find using lots of characters helps you feel what's coming at you. You get a good feel for their move set then. I have a four character rotation I seem to be pretty successful.

 

[Battlecow]

EDIT: Zenyore has been playing since like 2006. Kuz did improve pretty fast though. And no battlecattle Kefit isn't "much" better than either of them. In fact I'd say Zenyore would win that match up. Kuz/Kefit would be close.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Nahhhhhhhhhhhh

Yeahhhhhhhhh, for at least the former.

 

[Battlecow]

dude zenyore was ok but he hasn't played in forever and he wasn't kefit good in the first place

I could kinda play with zen and I was terrible back then

I can't really play with kefit even now

Y'all don't realize how good kefit is. ************ goes even with Sensei. He's millimeters away from FREAKING JAIME.

 

[SheerMadness]

What do you mean we don't realize how good Kefit is? A lot of us have played against him lol.

Kefit is A tier. Zenyore and Kuz are A tier.

I've taken multiple sets off freaking Jaime. A tier is not that far off Jaime. In fact a lot of people think Jaime belongs in A tier not S tier.

Nothing against Jaime, love the guy. He would no doubt be on top of A tier.

But you're overrating Kefit and Jaime IMO.

 

[jimmyjoe]

First off, I haven't checked this thread in a while cause it started as an idiots guide to proving how weird he is(yet again), but it has really become a good debate and pretty interesting.

B link: I think you have something here, but I may disagree with you about it making you a better player.. But I'm not really sure..
I think any character takes a significant chunk of time to get a handle on the finer points- e.g. mastering their recovery, comboing all 12 chars with them, having it in your reflexes to use their fastest moves in certain situations (a Kirby expert might have a decent secondary but instinctively utilt in a situation that works for Kirby but not for mario, falcon, etc.). Sticking to one for a long time will definitely limit confusion, and may be necessary to master a character if your time you're alloting to the game is limited enough that if you divided it among multiple chars you wouldn't have mastery of the finer points with anybody.

That being said,
Playing with multiple chars may be more fun for many people ( this is opinion and def not true for everyone),
But as far as being better, it will def help in understanding what works against many other chars. My best character is pika, and for a while i didnt play him at all in friendlies(and i NEVER play kirby in friendlies but used him in tourney recently). Not playing as my main hurt me because I was unsure and rusty with his recovery,
However, once I got back in gear with him, I had a stronger understanding of all the matchups, knew when other characters were vulnerable or when they were baiting or what they would try to do.
Plus now I have counter picks(not that pika needs them).
Anyway please keep us updated on your progress man.

Edit: overall I think my point is: if you have the time to get the finer points down with more than one character, it probably could only be beneficial.

 

[B Link]

That being said,
Playing with multiple chars may be more fun for many people ( this is opinion and def not true for everyone),
But as far as being better, it will def help in understanding what works against many other chars. My best character is pika, and for a while i didnt play him at all in friendlies(and i NEVER play kirby in friendlies but used him in tourney recently). Not playing as my main hurt me because I was unsure and rusty with his recovery,
However, once I got back in gear with him, I had a stronger understanding of all the matchups, knew when other characters were vulnerable or when they were baiting or what they would try to do.
Plus now I have counter picks(not that pika needs them).

Edit: overall I think my point is: if you have the time to get the finer points down with more than one character, it probably could only be beneficial.

I see what you mean, and other people have posted about this.

From my experience, knowing how to play a character is different from knowing how to counter that character.

E.G. You decide to use Kirby a lot (vs everyone except Kirby, i.e. no Kirby dittos):

From my experience, that won't help you...

...when you're trying to win AGAINST Kirby with YOUR (let's say) Link. In the end, you're going to have to master Link-specific stuff to win.

Your knowledge of using Kirby as a character will be Kirby-related muscle memory and visual signals against other non-Kirby characters. All of a sudden, when you switch to Link, you're (subconsciously) thinking about the timing of Z cancelling for Link, most effective combos for Link, etc. You might as well have practiced Link from the beginning!

Your use of Kirby, again, helps you when you use kirby against other characters. But when it's time to face Kirby, with your, let's say Link...good luck!

The exception in the above example is if you used Kirby against Kirby. But anyway the point people are making is that using Kirby helps you when you use Non-Kirby v. Kirby. But in this example (Kirby dittos) you're playing against Kirby anyway. So of course you're going to improve against Kirby if you play against Kirby with Kirby.

Anyway please keep us updated on your progress man.

I'm a supporter of console being the ultimate skill determiner. So I really just want to post progress about how I do offline. But anyone can play me online if they want to see my online skill. (Inb4 people think I'm arguing that online is useless).

EDIT: And I've still been using only Pikachu during matches. So far I'm maybe 3 weeks in without switching.

 

[B Link]

Sorry for the double post, but I'll be posting offline/online progress on my smashboards blog from now on. I call it The Specialist Experiment.

 

[Battlecow]

What do you mean we don't realize how good Kefit is? A lot of us have played against him lol.

Kefit is A tier. Zenyore and Kuz are A tier.

I've taken multiple sets off freaking Jaime. A tier is not that far off Jaime. In fact a lot of people think Jaime belongs in A tier not S tier.

Nothing against Jaime, love the guy. He would no doubt be on top of A tier.

But you're overrating Kefit and Jaime IMO.

I like the fact that you're using that god-awful online tier list as a way to gauge the skill of kefit, who doesn't even play online

"A-tier" is so vague anyways. You're a-tier, for example, but I don't see you getting top 5 at apex's. I'd argue that someone who trades sets with sensei/jaime, two s-tier players, is S-tier and not A.

 

[SheerMadness]

Pretty sure Kefit has never beaten Jaime. Thus, if he had to play Jaime for 9th place like me he would have gotten 9th.

Also the online tier list was pretty spot on with the Apex results. 6 of the top 9 placers being online A tier or higher players. And that's not including YBOMBB who was always being discussed as borderline A tier and he got 9th. And Sensei who was S tier on the first online tier list. Only being taken off due to inactivity.

Anyway it really doesn't matter. Kefit will likely never play Zenyore or Kuz so it's a moot point.

And tier lists are obviously all opinion anyway. IMO only two people in North America should be S-tier or above, obviously Isai and Boom. Way too many A tier players have extremely close games with Jaime, Sensei, and Frog for them to be on a different level.

 

[ballin4life]

dude zenyore was ok but he hasn't played in forever and he wasn't kefit good in the first place

I could kinda play with zen and I was terrible back then

I can't really play with kefit even now

Y'all don't realize how good kefit is. Mother****er goes even with Sensei. He's millimeters away from FREAKING JAIME.

if we're using lol friendlies then IME Sensei >>>> Han Solo >> Kefit

I see what you mean, and other people have posted about this.

From my experience, knowing how to play a character is different from knowing how to counter that character.

but if you play a character a lot you know what general stuff that character has trouble with. so like if you play as Yoshi a lot you might notice "hey i have trouble when people just hover above me" and then when you play against Yoshi you'll decide to try to camp above him. stuff like that is definitely a factor.

 

[Battlecow]

who said we were using friendlies? We're definitely not. If we were then sheer could pull out the lolfriendlies he won against kef or whatever

strickly tourney/MM here

gonna admit that Sheer is kinda right about the MU thing, kefit's pretty bad against random chars

 

[B Link]

but if you play a character a lot you know what general stuff that character has trouble with. so like if you play as Yoshi a lot you might notice "hey i have trouble when people just hover above me" and then when you play against Yoshi you'll decide to try to camp above him. stuff like that is definitely a factor.

General stuff is general

But yeah I think I get what you guys are trying to say. Play character X/Y/Z, learn X/Y/Z's weaknesses, exploit them when your opponent uses X/Y/Z. (And this could not be done unless you use X/Y/Z, i.e. you can't learn X/Y/Z's weaknesses if you just used Q for example)

I guess I just never find myself learning this way much. I honestly think I do this naturally, but it doesn't get me far because other people's openings don't always match mine.

 

[Olikus]

But we can agree all this would be much more interesting if you didnt have pika in the experiment.

 

[B Link]

Yeah maybe I should've used the great kirby

 

[duncs]

definitely think incorporating aspects of certain chars abilities into other characters when you're branching out is a good move.

the stagnation of playing one character exclusively is limiting, in my opinion, if nothing else. me for example, I hate playing foxes cause ive been using pika/kirby since i REALLY started playing again, but had never used him much until recently. so through using him, when I play against him, i see the moves hes doing and understand the space/proximity to the attack, and judge my move from that.

not to say im on a competitive level, but, it seems efficient to use a magnitude of chars

 

[Battlecow]

I think that you can probably learn all of that almost as efficiently from playing against them.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

 

[B Link]

You'll not only learn it almost as efficiently, you'll learn it more efficiently. Just because you know kirby's utilt range after using it, doesn't mean you're going to be pro at dodging Kikoushi's utilt (for e.g.)

 

[Olikus]

Imo when you start playing competitive. You Get much better by playing several chars, instead of 1 all The time. But when you have reach a high level( honestly i dont know how good blink is) it might be Okay sticking to one char. Personally I prefer playing several.

 

[RickySSB]

no

 

[viCe1]

What is your opinion of basing character choice to play a specific matchup. I don't mean try to hardcore-counter your opponent, but to play and learn characters through relatively balanced matchups that you find to be fun to play. e.g I personally enjoy falcon ditts, mario falcon, luigi jiggs, dk yoshi, yoshi falcon....from each perspective

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I generally learned that way (like I prefer Falcon for Fox's and stuff)
The issue is that in tournament, if someone knows of this (and if they are good at multiple characters,) they can just switch their character if they lose and win since you can't play that matchup proper
I.E., they win the first game, you counterpick them, they counterpick you.

 

[JKHDaBomb]

Link for life <3

 

[Mahie]

My take on the matter would be learn how to play every character to a somewhat decent level, then master one (or two at most) of them.

If your opponent knows how to play his main in every matchup then you're gonna need more than just the basics to outplay him. It's really hard to do that with multiple characters but then again it depends on the level of play you're aiming to reach.

 

[prisonchild]

is it bad that I'm training four characters currently? pika-fox-Mario-falcon if anyone cares.

 

[Pooncahontas]

I just want to know what malva had to do to get better, when he was already the best. (inb4 don't get hit)
I assume just playing the game a lot is a big part of it; I'd doubt there'd be more than a handful of people in the world who have played as much Smash64 as he has.

 

[clubbadubba]

He told me once that he sometimes just puts on some music, goes in training mode and practices movement.