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How to melee: S.D's video analysis and discussion thread - POST QUESTIONS!
- Thread starter S.D
- Start date
S.D
Smash Master
smopup
Smash Journeyman
Redact set
S.D
Smash Master
S.D
Smash Master
Ok guys going to be kicking this off again hopefully on Friday, with a new crop of ss vids coming there should be plenty of material.
I'll be doing the back catalogues as well.
I was thinking of possibly getting another person to do a review of the same match as myself to see what different notes we come up with. Any takers?
I'll be doing the back catalogues as well.
I was thinking of possibly getting another person to do a review of the same match as myself to see what different notes we come up with. Any takers?
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
PrettyCoolGuy
Smash Ace
Hugs and sleepyk. Especially sleepyk he's way less in demand.
S.D
Smash Master
It's all about bait and punish. It's hard for Doc to force clear grab situations out of neutral, so consider outspacing say, nair, with DD grabs. You can also mix in grab follow ups on low % aerials, many mid level players' first reaction to being hit is to shield, giving you the opportunity to sneak in grabs. CC at low % is VERY effective as well, if you CC a nair and DI the hit out you can avoid a follow up shine and snake a grab. For Doc most of your mileage will come from grab combos/tech chases, so it's very important.
S.D
Smash Master
I'd probably prefer Aus players' takes on it, more localised and open for discussion etc.
It doesn't need to be a top player to get insight.
Also I'd probably prefer to submit my own matches for critique by pros lol.
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PrettyCoolGuy
Smash Ace
So selfish.
I can probably do something, I think I'd enjoy it. Also I think I have a pretty different perspective to a lot of people plus I suck so that'd be good for people to tell me I'm wrong.
Don't know how I'd do it logistically though, especially because I'm currently on ADSL at home.
Maybe like a skype call about the game, except once again I have potato internet.
Doc could do some swaggy **** like pivot grab but his grab will probably just miss lol. Dinosaur lyfe. Might have to jab grab some kunts? the luigi wd jab grab is semi functional with doc, kinda like jab dsmash (have you done that?) but better at percents where dsmash won't set up an edgeguard or whatever. At least that sounds right.
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
Yeah someone tipped me into jab dmash a couple weeks ago as a mixup, works well. I'll try to work in jab grab. WD jab grab sounds like it would work too.
S.D
Smash Master
Would be interesting for sure, down for that.
Benny P
Smash Journeyman
S.D, Could i please get some analysis on my stream match vs Toshi?
I'd really appreciate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX6RvpqL5yQ
I'd really appreciate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX6RvpqL5yQ
I've begun doing more thorough video analysis for myself since watching some of these (and some on twitch like SFAT etc.) and it's something I'd recommend to others as well. Getting advice from expert players is fantastic, but also crucial to becoming a good player is developing the ability to identify the problems in your own game and create solutions for them.
Obviously, you don't have the luxury of thinking through every permutation in the moment of play, you kind of have to just trust your instinct - so the more you familiarize yourself with a situation and understand the range of options that don't suck, the more you can devote the very limited thinking time you have to "which option should I use" rather than "which options do I have". An irreplacable part of that is just experience, but if you take a look at the situation outside the pressure, and know your character's viable options and your opponent's character's viable options properly, you can craft a better mental process for the next time you encounter that situation.
Watching videos at half speed can be way more productive to this end, and really lets you easily pick out the situations where you could have gotten a better outcome with a different decision - and it's better to rewind the same 5 second segment multiple times and learn something tangible than watch a whole match and just let it wash over you. Analyzing pro videos the same way is helpful for situations where you feel like you lack answers. What do the best players do in the situation you're puzzled with? If they don't seem to ever get into that situation, *why not*?
I also generally find there are (optimistically) 3-5 times a stock where I could have capitalized on something or evaded a hit in the moment if I just had crisper movement/tighter tech, but either flubbed it or had to not do it despite being aware of it because I knew I'd **** it up. That's a crazy rate of technical error in the 20XX era - it's more than enough mistakes and missed opportunities to lose a set on - and this is happening for someone who has been playing since 2007 and is contesting 3rd place locally.
Although technical consistency has never been one of my personal strengths, I think this is a problem for almost everyone in the Melbourne and greater Australian scene. You might think your tech is pretty "down", but go back and reconsider - how confident are you with every situation, every option, how often do you find yourself shaking your head at something silly you messed up? The reality is learning Melee tech isn't a thing you've learned and then you've figured it out for life, it's something you have to keep sharp with regular practice even for the pros. This may not be the case for some of our top top players, but that's because we haven't been giving them enough to challenge them.
Obviously, you don't have the luxury of thinking through every permutation in the moment of play, you kind of have to just trust your instinct - so the more you familiarize yourself with a situation and understand the range of options that don't suck, the more you can devote the very limited thinking time you have to "which option should I use" rather than "which options do I have". An irreplacable part of that is just experience, but if you take a look at the situation outside the pressure, and know your character's viable options and your opponent's character's viable options properly, you can craft a better mental process for the next time you encounter that situation.
Watching videos at half speed can be way more productive to this end, and really lets you easily pick out the situations where you could have gotten a better outcome with a different decision - and it's better to rewind the same 5 second segment multiple times and learn something tangible than watch a whole match and just let it wash over you. Analyzing pro videos the same way is helpful for situations where you feel like you lack answers. What do the best players do in the situation you're puzzled with? If they don't seem to ever get into that situation, *why not*?
I also generally find there are (optimistically) 3-5 times a stock where I could have capitalized on something or evaded a hit in the moment if I just had crisper movement/tighter tech, but either flubbed it or had to not do it despite being aware of it because I knew I'd **** it up. That's a crazy rate of technical error in the 20XX era - it's more than enough mistakes and missed opportunities to lose a set on - and this is happening for someone who has been playing since 2007 and is contesting 3rd place locally.
Although technical consistency has never been one of my personal strengths, I think this is a problem for almost everyone in the Melbourne and greater Australian scene. You might think your tech is pretty "down", but go back and reconsider - how confident are you with every situation, every option, how often do you find yourself shaking your head at something silly you messed up? The reality is learning Melee tech isn't a thing you've learned and then you've figured it out for life, it's something you have to keep sharp with regular practice even for the pros. This may not be the case for some of our top top players, but that's because we haven't been giving them enough to challenge them.
Benny P
Smash Journeyman
Great answer Atticus, i couldn't agree more. Back in SF days i was doing this tons to my favourite videos.
I had a great time even just playing on stream, and it was very difficult to play against such good players, but fun in it's own way and little bit "HELP"s.
I'm finding it real hard to do self analysis, and maybe im not at the point where i can do that yet..
Personally, i can't help having a good time during a match (but not at the cost of the performance match itself though) and looking back is great, but i'm having a small problem.
0% sodium on this one, Toshi's a cool guy. it's just i got a little down every time i attempted to "see where i went wrong" and "see what i could do better" i just got a little down/disappointed in myself. Do you know of any ways to remove emotion or feeling for cold hard analysis to then create a better smash future?
Finally i'd like to say thanks to you (and Joey) for being so very generous to me whilst you were commentating. Some lessons really are best learned...in tournament.
Thank you very much!
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S.D
Smash Master
Nice post from Jared, just for a change.
Technical consistency is something Australia is pretty poor with tbh. I always used to think my tech was solid because I could do some advanced things, but nowdays I see SO MANY mini flubs that are just unacceptable. As a result my practice has become much more simple, going back to things like u throw u airing Marth in 20xx. All about nailing down that bread and butter, then working in some strawberry jam and vegemite to add another tasty layer every now and then.
@
Benny P
- you need to view your matches with less emotional attachment, and realise that acceptance of failure/flaws is the path to improvement. You have to learn to lose before you learn to win. Don't view it as a personal failure every time you flub something, view every error as a learning opportunity. When I watch back my matches I get a lot more excited if I see a solution to a situation where I've failed than if I get something right, as it leads to optimisation next time around.
The best thing you can do for self analysis is ask 'why did I get hit' and 'how could I have avoided/mitigated the situation better/to my advantage?' theorycraft some solutions, and cross reference them with more experienced players.
Guys sorry I've been so slack with this, I'll try to cook up a batch of vids on Friday.
Technical consistency is something Australia is pretty poor with tbh. I always used to think my tech was solid because I could do some advanced things, but nowdays I see SO MANY mini flubs that are just unacceptable. As a result my practice has become much more simple, going back to things like u throw u airing Marth in 20xx. All about nailing down that bread and butter, then working in some strawberry jam and vegemite to add another tasty layer every now and then.
@
Benny P
- you need to view your matches with less emotional attachment, and realise that acceptance of failure/flaws is the path to improvement. You have to learn to lose before you learn to win. Don't view it as a personal failure every time you flub something, view every error as a learning opportunity. When I watch back my matches I get a lot more excited if I see a solution to a situation where I've failed than if I get something right, as it leads to optimisation next time around.The best thing you can do for self analysis is ask 'why did I get hit' and 'how could I have avoided/mitigated the situation better/to my advantage?' theorycraft some solutions, and cross reference them with more experienced players.
Guys sorry I've been so slack with this, I'll try to cook up a batch of vids on Friday.
My post wasn't directly aimed at you in particular Benny (although I'm glad you found it helpful!). It can be difficult to self-analyze very early in your Smash career where you have an incomplete mental framework of all the basic options each character has, and you're right to learn as much as you can from resources provided by other players. In addition to just soaking up as much information about stuff you can do from watching the pros play, stuff like SmashPractice and PewPewUniversity can accelerate your insight into the game in ways I wish I had available to me when I started. And, of course, the importance of mastering those fundamental tech skills are even more important for the newer player.
Sam basically beat me to this while I was typing it, but I'll post it anyway: for a good analytical (and playing) mindset, what I suggest is taking being Zen literally and cultivating a mental attitude of detachment/equanimity towards your performance. For me this stems from realizing that all you can do at any given moment in Smash (and life) is do the best that you can, so the only logical position is to accept that whatever the outcome of that will be, both before and after you know what it is. If you're resolved to accept whatever happens in advance, there's nothing left to cause anxiety or frustration during the game. Getting upset about an outcome after the fact doesn't change it, so the only sensible thing to do is to take a positive attitude towards whatever happened and learn the most you can from it.
Detachment from the outcome is NOT the same as feeling indifference or resignation towards what happens - you still compete and learn with your most sincere effort, you still feel invested in the game - but rather that you don't predicate your happiness on a successful outcome. In other words, wanting to do well, but being completely okay and accepting of it if you don't. Some players do well off an ego-driven attitude that can't accept losing or playing poorly because it drives them to obsessive improvement, but I think they are in a minority and that attitude is destructive for your wellbeing and your enjoyment of the game - which are not only more important things than winning but really important to learning and playing your best.
Of course, knowing what a good attitude consists of is easier than maintaining one, and developing it is a skill that takes developing like anything else (I certainly fail to exhibit it from time to time). You just have to accept that sometimes your attitude falls down the same way you have to accept sometimes your playing performance falls down, and the important thing is that you just picking it back up until it becomes habitualized.
Sam basically beat me to this while I was typing it, but I'll post it anyway: for a good analytical (and playing) mindset, what I suggest is taking being Zen literally and cultivating a mental attitude of detachment/equanimity towards your performance. For me this stems from realizing that all you can do at any given moment in Smash (and life) is do the best that you can, so the only logical position is to accept that whatever the outcome of that will be, both before and after you know what it is. If you're resolved to accept whatever happens in advance, there's nothing left to cause anxiety or frustration during the game. Getting upset about an outcome after the fact doesn't change it, so the only sensible thing to do is to take a positive attitude towards whatever happened and learn the most you can from it.
Detachment from the outcome is NOT the same as feeling indifference or resignation towards what happens - you still compete and learn with your most sincere effort, you still feel invested in the game - but rather that you don't predicate your happiness on a successful outcome. In other words, wanting to do well, but being completely okay and accepting of it if you don't. Some players do well off an ego-driven attitude that can't accept losing or playing poorly because it drives them to obsessive improvement, but I think they are in a minority and that attitude is destructive for your wellbeing and your enjoyment of the game - which are not only more important things than winning but really important to learning and playing your best.
Of course, knowing what a good attitude consists of is easier than maintaining one, and developing it is a skill that takes developing like anything else (I certainly fail to exhibit it from time to time). You just have to accept that sometimes your attitude falls down the same way you have to accept sometimes your playing performance falls down, and the important thing is that you just picking it back up until it becomes habitualized.
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S.D
Smash Master
Jared plz write a book on things.
S.D
Smash Master
I can still look over the match for a review as well, NP.
Benny P
Smash Journeyman
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
so do i smash my controller or not i dont understand
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
Time to revive this boys
If sam ain't gonna do it ill do it, anyone want anything gone over from all them recent tourneys?
If sam ain't gonna do it ill do it, anyone want anything gone over from all them recent tourneys?
Benny P
Smash Journeyman
I don't know if it's needed anymore, but is it okay if i get an analysis from my match from the last SS?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX6RvpqL5yQ
I'm IC's
it was something i was kind of waiting on a little bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX6RvpqL5yQ
I'm IC's
it was something i was kind of waiting on a little bit
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S.D
Smash Master
I WILL get back into this. Probs just start reviewing random BAM sets.
Benny P
Smash Journeyman
Will i get mine done? I think i'm a little better than that video now, but it would be good to have none the less, so i can remind myself on what not to do. thanks. 
