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How Super Smash Bros Brawl SHOULD be.

Viewtiful_Jeff

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
84
Note, that everything in this thread is my opinion and nothing more. And while my opinion is heavily reinforced by logic and fact, it is still my opinion, and anyone else is entitled to whatever opinion, as flimsy and nonsensical as it may be.

Now that that's out of the way, the following is a detailed list of how I think SSBB should be. Note that, however it does turn out, I'll probably still buy it, as SSB and SSBM are two of the most fantastic games to ever be created and I don't doubt that, no matter what, Brawl will live up to that legacy, even if every single thing I say here is completely blown out of the water on December 3rd (not bloody likely, since Sakurai's an intelligent man (and pretty **** attractive to boot) and knows how to make a good game, but anything's possible).

First off, "wavedashing". I have no doubt in my mind that this technique (or, glitch, really) should be completely removed from the game. It just doesn't serve any practical purpose. I've seen it used in matches and referred to as an "advanced" technique, but the only reason it's in use is because every one else uses it. If it weren't there, I assure you, the majority of players would not miss it. It's a glitch, and it shouldn't be in Brawl.

Next up, items. Items are part of what make Smash Bros great, and the fact that it seems to be a prerequisite that they be turned off in tournaments (this is what I've heard) leaves me aghast. Items add a special thrill to the game. The fun of picking up a motion sensor and tossing it on to the ground and then giggling like a schoolgirl as the opponent steps on to it and takes a nice long trip into the sky, the suspense of throwing a Pokeball, accompanied by the laughs of triumph as Lugia bursts out and rains destruction upon the opposition or the cruel jeers from the opponent as Goldeen emerges and worthlessly flops about, or the awe and wonder as Mew appears, quickly followed by annoyance that it didn't do anything. Or, and this is my personal favorite, the horror etched into the opponent's face as Marth, Link or Roy pick up the saber and proceed to bring sweet sweet twin-bladed death unto all that oppose him. And all the other wonderful little treats in between. If the characters are the heart of Super Smash Bros and the stages are the body, then surely the items are the lifeblood. This is why items should never be banished from a match, because when the blood stops pumping, the body will surely wither and die.

Now, while we're on the subject of items, my journeys through the intarweb have shown me that some people are rather displeased with the concept of the Final Smash. This just utterly befuddles me. In my opinion, a system like the Final Smash was one of the very few things Melee was missing. A quick fact check will show you that pretty much every decent fighting game in the history of time has a Super system. One could make the argument that in the 64 Smash Bros, that was the vastly overpowered throws, but that is neither here nor there. And Final Smash is another example of the SSB series doing a better job than all of its fighting game predecessors. No obnoxiously convoluted button combos, just have enough speed and timing to snatch the Final Smash ball out from under the opponent's nose and then let 'er rip (and I will bet my hat that it will take a lot of speed and timing. If there's only one per match, then you're gonna have to be pretty fast to get it before the other guy).

In specific, I've seen a lot of naysaying on Samus's Final Smash, essentially confirming that an item is required to make the transformation to Zero Suit Samus. I for one think it's a great idea. Yeah, sure, the transformation system for Zelda/Shiek was good enough, but for one thing, it wouldn't make any visual sense for Samus. So she can just shed her armor and put it back on at will? Psht. Yeah, that makes loads of sense. Secondly, this is better in the fact that it makes Samus a deeper character. You'll have to learn to train as both Samus and Zero Suit Samus, and if you do this well, it would make you a force to be reckoned with, to be sure. Imagine it, you use Samus's already formidable repertoire to batter the opponents until the Final Smash ball appears, obtain it, and use her Final Smash to send them on a one-way trip to the brink. Then, with you're increased speed (and new sexy figure, rowr), finish them off before they can get their heads back together. Certainly, it wouldn't be an easy thing to master, but it would be oh-so-worth it at the end, I believe.

As for the stages, (the "body" of Super Smash Bros, I believe I called them) while I can appreciate the simplicity of Battlefield and Final Destination, the insane regularity with which they're used is...somewhat disturbing. There are loads of stages, guys. Don't be afraid to branch out. A good stage makes you consider the terrain and either be wary of it or use it to your advantage (Mute City). A great stage will constantly keep you on your toes, either due to inherent peril, or because you were just given a narrow opportunity to open a can of whoopass, somehow (Brinstar Depths, for example). Of course, the fact that these two stages are banned from tournament use is quite startling, as they're two examples of great design, especially when they're turned away in favor of Final Destination, which is, quite literally, just one long platform. ...Seriously guys, let's have some variety.

And this is an utterly personal thing, but.....Viewtiful Joe should be playable.

That's all I have to say. I hope you enjoyed reading.
 

maxpower1227

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
1,443
I know this is a tourney-vs-casual flamebait, but I'll respond anyway

1) Who says Zamus can ONLY be used after a Final Smash? I'm fairly confident that's not the case, so that whole part of your post is moot

2) No to Viewtiful Joe. Third Party slots are very scarce, and should be more exclusive. They should be reserved for the best of the best - characters who have been around for generations and have a long list of successful games in their history. Solid Snake, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man... these are worthy candidates. Viewtiful Joe is not.

3) Wavedashing is an exploit, not a glitch.

Everything else is just more fuel to the endless tourney-vs-casual war, and while I think you're right in saying that those elements of the game shouldn't be discarded, it will never happen. Unless the tourney scene splits into two different "leagues" or what have you.
 

StevenM

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
93
Location
England
(1) I'll agree with, since to me the concept of wavedashing has basically become to Smash what snaking has become to Mario Kart - an annoying exploit.

(2) I'll also agree with, but I find that apparently tournament players are frightened of the idea of a fight containing random elements. At least that's what I've gathered from browsing on Smashboards.

(3) I would imagine a Super move for Smash would be appreciated by some (since it brings it that much closer to a 'real' fighting game). Then again, having to use an item to do so would dissatisfy others. I suppose we'll just have to see more Final Smashes in action before we can draw an accurate verdict.

(4) Makes sense, since unlike Shiek it'd be a bit difficult to explain away Samus' transformations with sparkling stars and glowing light.

(5) Again, random elements. =/

At any rate, prepare for a lot of drama concerning these topics.
 

B_Smash07

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Messages
115
Location
NEw Jersey
Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.
 

Vaztor

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Messages
2,075
Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.
I hope this was a joke post XD
 

Ianthraxx

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
141
Location
Toronto, ON
So, in essence, you want wavedashing out and items and final smashes in?
I'm preeeeeetty sure final smashes and items are in. You probably don't have to worry. XD

Wavedashing... live and let live, come on. It's been proven time and again that it isn't a glitch, and it's not hurting you to be there, is it?

Viewtiful Joe would be really cool, but I'd take Sonic and Megaman before him. They're just so much more classic. :D
 

Viewtiful_Jeff

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
84
Wow. Wasn't aware I'd get so many responses so quickly.

Maxpower: It's not 'flamebait', or anything of the sort. If it was, I'd probably be a lot bigger of a jerk (use terms such as 'tourneytard' and the like).

1) You have a point. She is listed as a full 'Newcomer' on the site after all. So I guess it's entirely possible that she can be unlocked as her own character somehow.

2) Joe's far better than those characters. Sonic....might as well stick a fork in him, 'cause he is done. Megaman has similarly vastly overstayed his welcome. Megaman, X and Zero are too old, the ZX cast is too young, and the EXE cast is just plain 'eh' anyway. Maybe if MMZ Zero or even Legends Megaman was in that'd be different, but Joe is still a better choice.

3) Tomato, Tomato (not the easiest saying to express through text...).

I'm really not trying to start a war, just express my opinions. A discussion? Sure. A war? Noooo.

Cyberdemon: Pretty much, for the reasons I just detailed above. It just sounds to me like all the fun gets sucked out.

B Smash: So, you claim that not only the main consumer of the Super Smash Bros series is a tournament player, but also that anyone who doesn't is an utter novice that doesn't know what a Smash Attack is?

I'm just trying to make sure I understand. If I'm wrong, please, do correct me. Because if I'm understanding you correctly, the entire 'casual' side of the Casual vs. Tourney debate is built of complete novices who don't participate in tournaments purely out of lack of skill and not choice.

If this is, indeed, your thoughts good sir, then I must come to the conclusion that you have the intelligence of a goldfish.

Ianthraxx: I'd be perfectly fine with 'live and let live', but Wavedashing is pretty akin to a disease, and if you don't use it, you'll get your rear chopped off and handed to you by it.

And classic is overrated, for the reasons I said above.
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
This whole post, aside the WD opinion, is entirely out of spite from you on the way that we play. The game has options. Why do you care if we turn them a certain way. Your opinion doesn't dictate what's "fun". We play the game to make it as fair* as possible.

As for WD, Why should it be taken out? Don't say "it isn't intentional" that makes no sense. Show me how WD is so imbalanced that you need to remove it. It's not. You don't lose because of Wavedashing, that's just an excuse inexperienced players use. I don't know much about snaking, so I can't comment on the comparison.

Anyway, my point is, what's your problem? We play the way we want to. What's wrong with that? Play the way you want to play and stop trying to change ours.



* no I don't mean the bull**** 'noobs can beat veterans' fair. that's not actually fair. Fair means skill = win.
 

maxpower1227

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
1,443
Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.

WHAT. .
 

Crazy Ace 01

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
122
Location
Manchester, New Hampshire
Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.
I don't know if this guy was being sarcastic but his spelling is about the level of a little ten year old. Zing!

First of all, the Wii is all about "catering" to a larger audience. "Nintendo doesn't want a bigger slice of the pie, they want a bigger pie." You hear that all the time.

Second of all, don't be such an *** to an opinion that doesn't line up perfectly with yours. Oops, was that my out-loud post?

Thirdly, I find such a casual viewpoint fascinating. The world of Nintendo is changing to suit the casual gamer as well as the hard-core gamer. Therefore, casual opinion is just as valid as hard-core opinion, and just because you want to label it as the ignorance of a ten year old and ignore the facts doesn't mean that isn't true.

Good work Jeff! Your arguments are well thought out and it is obvious that you have read a lot of the forum and seen all the facts before you posted, unlike some people I know. However, in a game tournament, the idea is to reduce chance and increase the amount of pure skill needed to win a match. That way, the person who is the best wins, not just the guy that got lucky with a hammer or starman. Hard-core gamers therefore frown upon "cheap gimmicks" and random stage events because it messes with this balance of skill. Many gamers always turn off items and use only tournament stages to practice and they eventually distain things, like items, that would throw off the skilled fighting that is required in tournaments.

Fear the opinion of the casual for it gains weight with Nintendo! FEAR IT! :mad:
 

Shine-Fu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
45
To be fair to the poster who talked about tournament level play, you seem to have no experience at that level (Believe me, wavedashing makes a HUGE difference, especially with characters like fox and marth), and your 'perfect solution' completely leaves tournament players out in the dust.

Also, to shed a little light on why people who play smash 'seriously' don't like items or certian stages:

To the majority of 'serious' players, they want it to be a game of skill. They want it to be Me versus you, nothing but my abilities versus yours. This explains both things that seem to boggle you, because

A. Several stages, and the way they act, affects the outcome of the game. They don't like that. Nothing is more frustrating than losing to someone because an arwing decided to shoot you. The random element wrecks their me vs you ideal setup.

B. items are worse. There is no worse feeling than losing to someone because they had the fortune to get an item to spawn near them. Oh look, you got a bob-om. Now I have an unfair disadvantage.

This is why those are like they are.

Wavedashing, if done properly, allows you to move way faster, slip off and edge-hog, and generally set yourself up for better attack combos. It is an excellent ability, even if it is an exploit, and you don't truly come to understand it untill you have managed to do it once or twice (it takes a lot of practice) and then watch a pro or two mix it up.

thats all.
 

LaniusShrike

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 18, 2002
Messages
2,580
Location
Or
Heh, I kind of like Viewtiful Jeff. Talks like I do, sometimes... though I'd never write a post that long, since I know people wouldn't read it.

But, our opinions do differ- I'm fairly neutral on the final smashes. I mean, they're cool, but in no way do I think that's what the series "needed". You are talking about what makes Smash unique, yet you then express that Final Smashes should be included so smash would conform to other "decent" fighting games. Smash is so very unlike other fighting games, it almost seems ridiculous to compare the two. In other games, the supers are more often than not designed to be used in conjunction with other attacks that throw the (single) opponent off balance and then hit them with the supers to take away a chunk of their health. Smash's FS doesn't appear to be able to function like that at all- we don't even know if you can choose when to use the attack besides from picking up the Smash Orb.
Note: I for one don't think that a quick fact check would reveal anything to support the fact that all decent fighters in all history has supers. In fact, using the quick fact checker called my Super Nintendo, I have revealed that Street Fighter II turbo, a very popular game of the time, had no such Super Move system, unless your definition has me confused.

But, it's a verifiable fact: Wavedashing IS a glitch. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, necessarily, simply that it's unintentional. It makes perfect sense. The programmers did not intend for wavedashing to become used as it is in competition. Like every decent fighting game, there are competitive players that master things that more casual players do not. I personally do think it's a pity that wavedashing exists (as it just makes the game look glitchy). The fact that it seems to balance certain characters out more is just poor planning on the programmers' part. It is, yes, also an exploit. Exploiting a glitch. That's, in fact, the actual definition of an exploit:
"An 'exploit' is the term given to programs that make use of errors or bugs in programs, which allow someone outside the program to cause it to perform something it wasn't intended to do."

You're addressing too many issues in one thread. Easier to pick one or two related arguments and then deal with those first- this way you'll be making a lot more people disagree with you. I'm fairly apathetic about the Zero Suit Samus issue, but most people aren't, and they'll be annoyed at that. I, for one, can't say I necessarily agree that it adds to her depth as a character. I think it's a huge pity that they are sexualizing one of the few female video game characters that wasn't. Much of her power lies in the Power Suit and it's additions, and there has been nothing to imply that she mastered various acrobat combat styles. Zero Suit Samus is, essentially, a character created by the makers of Smash Bros. that happens to be linked to someone else's character and have the same look that someone else made. Smash's depiction of Z. Samus is shallow and unfortunate.

The fact that you don't understand why items are out of competitive play surprises me, as you strike me as fairly intelligent. The point of competition is to determine who has the most skill. That is not to say that it does not require skill to utilize items, I am saying that items add a huge randomization factor to the game. The placement, which item, if they'll explode... items add a huge randomization factor which does add fun to casual play, but when you're playing to reach a certain goal nobody wants a random explosion to affect the outcome.
Competition, by all means, should have a set of rigid rules in order to create a scale as to which you can judge a player. You can play a game of pool just for fun and enjoy hitting the balls as hard as you can to see where they go, but in competitive play there are rules to insure that all occurrences are due to planning.

What I think a much more worthy cause to parade isn't "competitive players are doing it wrong", it should be that "many competitive players clearly are elitist and belittle others based simply on the fact they prefer to play the game for fun rather than ranking". Of course, at this point that'd be fairly hypocritical of you, as much of this thread is saying that competitive players are ruining Smash Bros.
 

Desu_was_Banned

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
5
I think that competitive players should learn to adapt to the randomness that items and stages bring into the game. How can you say that you are good when you cut 95% of the game? My friend showed me a tournament video once and all I saw was Fox and Falco fighting on Final Destination with no items. That's it. And it sickens me.

Items are on by default. That means they're supposed to be on. All characters can be selected once they are unlocked. All stages can be selected once they are unlocked. Yet, all stages are banned except Final Destination and all characters are banned except Fox and Falco. It's just terribly bland. I don't see how it can be fun at all. More importantly, there's no skill. "Competitive" players turn off 95.5% of the game because they are scared of a little randomness that they can't adapt to.

And don't get me started on the glitch abusing.

I think that I would do pretty good in a tournament. One time I got a hammer and I hit all the other 3 people and KO'd two of them! I don't mean to brag, but I have never seen that in those wussy 1v1 matches.
 

Bassoonist

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Messages
4,684
NNID
WoodwindsRock
3DS FC
1032-1351-5240
Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.
Actually, items are a part of the series and will remain so whatever you want to say.

Some of us like to play the game as it is. I don't mind tournament play even though I personally disagree with all of the restrictions, I just wish they would leave the rest of us alone, because adding more items into game (with the Item Switcher as well so they can be turned off.) is going to hurt nobody. The same goes for stages, they are purely choice, so you should stop complaining.
 

DBZFoxMarth92

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
3
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Ogre_Deity_Link

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,445
Location
Central New York
Casual players attack FTW!!!

As I've said in a previous post on another thread, "To each his own."

We should just leave each other in peace. Let the tourney players play their Fox/Falco Final Destination/itemless matches, while us causal-ites will play silly matches using nothing but Red Shells on High.
 

Adi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
1,505
Location
New Paltz, NY
Actually, items are a part of the series and will remain so whatever you want to say.

Some of us like to play the game as it is. I don't mind tournament play even though I personally disagree with all of the restrictions, I just wish they would leave the rest of us alone, because adding more items into game (with the Item Switcher as well so they can be turned off.) is going to hurt nobody. The same goes for stages, they are purely choice, so you should stop complaining.
This is true but he is merely stating the validity of creating content for players who are going to put down the game after a half hour session as opposed to a competitive player who's going to dissect and play this game consistently for multiple years. Of course Brawl has to appeal to the casual gamer but there should also be a level of depth that will allow this game to endure for years after the release of it.
 

Viewtiful_Jeff

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
84
Eoade: It's not as spiteful as you think. I guess you could say I'm a bit frustrated though. I understand the fact that tournaments are supposed to be based on skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it feels like all the fun is sucked out from the arbitrary set of rules that are attached to tournament play. When you dilute so much out of the game for the sake of making it about "skill", when playing a game is supposed to be about fun, it feels like the entire point is being missed.

As for saying how much certain stages and items add too much 'luck' to the game, all games have a certain amount of luck to them. That adds a layer of unpredictability. Skill is important yes, but it's not all that's important. I think saying "You only got lucky!" because you got blasted into next week by an Arwing is bad sportsmanship. Also, what about the saying, "Luck is part of one's skill." or "Luck favors the prepared"?

Also, qdMbp, I must disagree with what you said about Samus. Zero Suit has been around since Zero Mission (or even before that), and Samus has been more sexualized than this before. I personally think the Zero Suit is flattering without turning her into a sex object.
 

Takeshi245

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
2,051
Location
Ansonia, CT
Casual players attack FTW!!!

As I've said in a previous post on another thread, "To each his own."

We should just leave each other in peace. Let the tourney players play their Fox/Falco Final Destination/itemless matches, while us causal-ites will play silly matches using nothing but Red Shells on High.
That's exactly what I'm thinking, man. Let competitive players play competitive and let casuals play casual.
 

Salaad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
936
Location
Irvine, CA
Jus bcuz j00 cant wav3d4sh dont meen that it shud b takin out!!!111!!!11

Oh and wussy 1 v 1 matches? I'd like to see you fo out there with all that pressure and combos. If you don't want to learn advanced techs, don't BUT DONT COMPLAIN. Glitch abusing, I'd like to see you talk about that. Just stfu Pl0x, because again DONT COMPLAIN IF U CHOOSE NOT TO LERN IT. Desu, you're a dumass. You say theres no skill in competitive smash but then u say that items add to the randomness WHERE IS THE SKILL IN THAT. DONT TALK ABOUT COMPETITIVE SMASH JUST BECAUSE YOU SUCK. If you choose to play ALL stages with items, go ahead. but don't cry about WaveDashing or competitive smashers because your jealous/ have no skill. I know there are a lot of people that play with items and have a lot of skill, but most of them don't complain. Go back to your crib you baby.


Oh well...everyones entitled to their own opinion....
 

Bassoonist

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Messages
4,684
NNID
WoodwindsRock
3DS FC
1032-1351-5240
This is true but he is merely stating the validity of creating content for players who are going to put down the game after a half hour session as opposed to a competitive player who's going to dissect and play this game consistently for multiple years. Of course Brawl has to appeal to the casual gamer but there should also be a level of depth that will allow this game to endure for years after the release of it.
I've played it "Casually" all along, and I still love the game after 6 almost 7 years.
 

Salaad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
936
Location
Irvine, CA
How can playing with items be fun? It's boring, and no, luck is NOT a part of skill. Luck is a seperate factor. How much skill does it take to throw a Pokeball? Dam, must take a lot..Pressing the A button...How much skill does it take to do Advanced Techs? More than 6 Buttons a second. You choose not to play competitively, don't whine about it.
 

Adi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
1,505
Location
New Paltz, NY
Eoade: It's not as spiteful as you think. I guess you could say I'm a bit frustrated though. I understand the fact that tournaments are supposed to be based on skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it feels like all the fun is sucked out from the arbitrary set of rules that are attached to tournament play. When you dilute so much out of the game for the sake of making it about "skill", when playing a game is supposed to be about fun, it feels like the entire point is being missed.
Fun is subjective. Competitive players are characterized by their determination to walk the path of self-improvement. I personally find it exciting to watch videos of myself when my Falco could barely Short Hop Laser to today where I can pillar flawlessly. This same feeling of self-improvement and acheivement isn't really met when you get gimped in a match due to an explosive crate.

As for saying how much certain stages and items add too much 'luck' to the game, all games have a certain amount of luck to them. That adds a layer of unpredictability. Skill is important yes, but it's not all that's important. I think saying "You only got lucky!" because you got blasted into next week by an Arwing is bad sportsmanship. Also, what about the saying, "Luck is part of one's skill." or "Luck favors the prepared"?
Now this statement begs to ask, would you really say the same when thousands of dollars were on the line? Would you let luck be the deciding factor between first and second?
 

Jigglymaster

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
5,577
Location
Northwest NJ
NNID
Dapuffster
Lmao! This jeff person is probably just a joke account. Cause he dosn't want to get flammed by good players like me. THE JIGGERNAUGHT. Anyways, even though were cutting out 95% of the game were also cutting 95% of the Luck in the game.

We play for money in tournaments. Were not here for the laughs, but the money. I really don't feel like the opponent getting a star that spawned right next to them and kill me. Yeah it would be funny, but it wouldn't be funny anymore because I would be out of the tournament and I wouldn't be able to win the money. Also you can use counter picks to pick crazy stages like mute city or pokefloats. But stages like Hyrule, Flat Zone, Great Bay, etc people can abuse cheap kills or stay in the cave of life. Basicly we cut out the items and bann stages to reduce the luck factor to 0%. Also did you know that the programers noticed the wavedash b4 they released it but still kept it in.

And saying always having items on is just as stupid as having Mario not return in brawl. The only reason you want items to always be on is that you want revenge on us for some reason. I don't think nintendo is stupid enough to not have an option for items turning on or off, they've had it in the past 2 games, aslo without the item selection you can't turn certian items off like if you want a pokeball only fight. Appently you have some grudge about a player that probably pwned you so you post this crap to get everybody mad.

And everybody else don't listen to Desu because he got banned because he made a prank with porn attached to it.
 

maxpower1227

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
1,443
Also, to shed a little light on why people who play smash 'seriously' don't like items or certian stages:

To the majority of 'serious' players, they want it to be a game of skill. They want it to be Me versus you, nothing but my abilities versus yours. This explains both things that seem to boggle you, because

A. Several stages, and the way they act, affects the outcome of the game. They don't like that. Nothing is more frustrating than losing to someone because an arwing decided to shoot you. The random element wrecks their me vs you ideal setup.

B. items are worse. There is no worse feeling than losing to someone because they had the fortune to get an item to spawn near them. Oh look, you got a bob-om. Now I have an unfair disadvantage.

This is why those are like they are.

So where are the tournaments for people who aren't afraid of elements of chance being introduced? Those should exist too - seems there would be a larger base for them.

Honestly, I understand the desire to make this game completely chance-free, but there are already a lot of fighting games out there like that. Smash Bros is supposed to be different. Of course the tourney scene has the right to play it the way they want, I just don't see why A) they don't just compete in games that don't require them to strip off most of the features and B) there seem to be no tournaments among those who play competitively, but with items and on all stages.

Not that big of a deal to me. Just curious.
 

Tabris-

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
188
Aweful. Items ruin matches, and stages with cheap gimmicks are fun, but rather trivial. Honestly, the serious pro smasher, who dominates the gameplay and is the main consumer/user, is who the game should be catered around. not the little ten year olds who dont kno what a smash attack it. really, if you want that, go back to SSB on the 64 and leave all us smashers alone.
Ha ha ha, oh wow.
 

Raptor_Jesus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
1
Hey guess what tourney***s, how about you go play a real fighting game?
You take out items, levels, andything "random" to have skill be the defining factor in fights.
Oh, except almost EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME BEFORE SSB WAS LIKE THAT.
Way to remove everything that made SSB unique.
Maybe you should get your heads out of your ***** and play something like Marvel vs Capcom, a Street Fighter, or Soul Caliber.
Or are you afraid of playing a game without wavedashing?
Jesus Christ tourney***s are pathetic.
 

NES n00b

Smash Master
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
4,272
Location
Oxford, Mississippi. . . . permanent n00b
So where are the tournaments for people who aren't afraid of elements of chance being introduced? Those should exist too - seems there would be a larger base for them.

Honestly, I understand the desire to make this game completely chance-free, but there are already a lot of fighting games out there like that. Smash Bros is supposed to be different. Of course the tourney scene has the right to play it the way they want, I just don't see why A) they don't just compete in games that don't require them to strip off most of the features and B) there seem to be no tournaments among those who play competitively, but with items and on all stages.

Not that big of a deal to me. Just curious.
Maybe we like the way this game plays. Just throwing that out there.

There is a reason why I play this game and not Tekken or Street Fighter. I like this game better. Plain and simple. Sure I don't play with items or what not, but I do like the game engine and how the fighters play.

Edit: I doubt any tourney players are afraid to play without wavedashing. It would just be annoying to not have that option. You can play with items if you want to. Just don't complain about tourney players playing the game their way.
 

TheSpindoctor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
269
I agree with most of this.

StevenM summed it up perfectly when he said that wavedashing is similar to snaking in Mario Kart. Neither of these two things make the game better, they just alter the game from what it was originally supposed to be. If both of these things were to never have been discovered it would make there respective games much better. They both just alter the game from its original intended form. If the developers/designers gave smash brothers a running function, (and they obviously did) dont you think that that is the primary way of getting around that they intended the player to use, not some exploitation?

All the other stuff was pretty much right on...
 

maxpower1227

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
1,443
This is true but he is merely stating the validity of creating content for players who are going to put down the game after a half hour session as opposed to a competitive player who's going to dissect and play this game consistently for multiple years.
I am what you would call a "casual" player, but I bought SSBM the day it was launched (I had to call several stores to find one in stock, in fact). I logged a ridiculous amount of play time on it (not sure the exact amount, I can check when I get a Wii), would play for as much as 3 hours at a time on some occasions (any more is obsessive and unhealthy. even 3 hours is unhealthy). I racked up over 10,000 KOs with a character who I didn't main until I had already owned the game for 3 years. When I sold my Wii and my Gamecube, I actually kept my SSBM disc and memory card.

I guess my point is: I reject your assessment that a casual player will "put the game down after a half hour session as opposed to a competitive player"
 

Pika Pika Pi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
19
Lmao! This jeff person is probably just a joke account. Cause he dosn't want to get flammed by good players like me. THE JIGGERNAUGHT. Anyways, even though were cutting out 95% of the game were also cutting 95% of the Fun in the game.
Oh hey, I fixed your post.
 

Salaad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
936
Location
Irvine, CA
Hey guess what tourney***s, how about you go play a real fighting game?
You take out items, levels, andything "random" to have skill be the defining factor in fights.
Oh, except almost EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME BEFORE SSB WAS LIKE THAT.
Way to remove everything that made SSB unique.
Maybe you should get your heads out of your ***** and play something like Marvel vs Capcom, a Street Fighter, or Soul Caliber.
Or are you afraid of playing a game without wavedashing?
Jesus Christ tourney***s are pathetic.

STFU, just because you suck balls at SSBM doesn't mean you should attack competitive players. Oh and we play SSBM because IT'S DIFFERENT FROM FIGHTING GAMES EVEN THOUGH ITEMS ARE TURNED OFF.

GG, Nub. Go learn Advanced Techs, OH WAIT NO YOU CAN'T CAUSE U PLAY W/ ITEMS AND U SUCK.

BBQSAUCE PLOX.
 

NES n00b

Smash Master
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
4,272
Location
Oxford, Mississippi. . . . permanent n00b
I agree with most of this.

StevenM summed it up perfectly when he said that wavedashing is similar to snaking in Mario Kart. Neither of these two things make the game better, they just alter the game from what it was originally supposed to be. If both of these things were to never have been discovered it would make there respective games much better. They both just alter the game from its original intended form. If the developers/designers gave smash brothers a running function, (and they obviously did) dont you think that that is the primary way of getting around that they intended the player to use, not some exploitation?

All the other stuff was pretty much right on...
What do you mean better? Maybe better for YOU, but not better for ME. I like wavedashing. Just because you think it is cheap or whatever doesn't give you the right to talk about getting rid of it. What if tourney players said we should get rid of items since we do not use it and we think it is "cheap."

Did I mention I think wavedashing make this game more FUN to me?
 

Adi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
1,505
Location
New Paltz, NY
So where are the tournaments for people who aren't afraid of elements of chance being introduced? Those should exist too - seems there would be a larger base for them.

Honestly, I understand the desire to make this game completely chance-free, but there are already a lot of fighting games out there like that. Smash Bros is supposed to be different. Of course the tourney scene has the right to play it the way they want, I just don't see why A) they don't just compete in games that don't require them to strip off most of the features and B) there seem to be no tournaments among those who play competitively, but with items and on all stages.

Not that big of a deal to me. Just curious.
Here's a little crash course on smash history. There was indeed a point in time when items were used in tournaments, there were even FFA competitive matches. This used to occur in the West Coast while the East Coast did standard matches that we may think of when we think of tournaments today. In fact California, Ken's home state was perhaps the most vehement of tourneys using items. Eventually players who went to tournaments realized the fault in including items. They were too random and to an extent nullified skill required in a match. Eventually these type of matches were forgotten and the east coast style matches were accepted as the standard.
 
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