How should franchises that "switch out" main characters be handled? (Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, [maybe] Zelda)

[Arthur97]

This game started development during the Wii U's run. How much more prep time is even necessary?

Apparently it isn't or the Smash team is incredibly inefficient. Granted, Sakurai doesn't seem like the most efficient director.

 

[Uffe]

I think having the protagonist who started it all should remain, or characters from games that were released in the US and Japan. Ness is from Mother 2, so we should have Ninten instead, but at the time, EarthBound was the only game of the Mother series that were sold in both US and JP. Which is kind of strange we didn't get Lyn as the Fire Emblem rep since she was the protagonist of the only Fire Emblem game at the time to have been released in the US and JP. I think Pokemon Trainer should stay. I wouldn't care if they changed the characters starter Pokemon to the current generation. I'm not familiar with any Pokemon villains, so I'd be fine with Mewtwo staying around. Ruby/Sapphire's Pokedex says Mewtwo has no compassion, and Diamon, Pearl, and Platinum say he has the most savage heart among Pokemon. Aside from Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede, I could see the Star Allies as an inclusion. Especially how they are in Kirby Star Allies.

 

[Quillion]

I think having the protagonist who started it all should remain, or characters from games that were released in the US and Japan. Ness is from Mother 2, so we should have Ninten instead, but at the time, EarthBound was the only game of the Mother series that were sold in both US and JP.

Ness and Lucas completely override Ninten as the lattermost is the least popular of the EarthBound protags. What's more, Ness was designed to be a "reboot" of Ninten, a replacement, so Ninten has no uniqueness factor to help him either.

Which is kind of strange we didn't get Lyn as the Fire Emblem rep since she was the protagonist of the only Fire Emblem game at the time to have been released in the US and JP.

She isn't the protagonist though; that's Eliwood. That said, going by sheer popularity (she's by far the most popular of FE7's main three), she definitely deserves to have a Chrom situation where her enduring popularity can let her be playable. Main problem I see is that being a (semi) echo won't fly for Lyn, so she won't be as easy.

I think Pokemon Trainer should stay. I wouldn't care if they changed the characters starter Pokemon to the current generation. I'm not familiar with any Pokemon villains, so I'd be fine with Mewtwo staying around. Ruby/Sapphire's Pokedex says Mewtwo has no compassion, and Diamon, Pearl, and Platinum say he has the most savage heart among Pokemon.

Why would they change PT's starters? The Gen 1 starters are still among the most iconic and popular in the series.

Going by the games alone Mewtwo isn't even a villain per se. It's never been much more than a challenging side catch in all of the main series. The only real villains we have are the evil team leaders. Mewtwo is only really classified as a villain due to being the villain of one anime movie. Even then, I still want Smash to move away from focusing on the anime for inspiration, Pokéspeak aside.

Aside from Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede, I could see the Star Allies as an inclusion. Especially how they are in Kirby Star Allies.

Kirby is a series where the main cast is fairly fixed, though. Of all the Dream Friends, only Bandana Dee has proved to rise as an icon as the fourth wheel to the main three. Everyone else is just a fun cameo.

 

[Uffe]

Ness and Lucas completely override Ninten as the lattermost is the least popular of the EarthBound protags. What's more, Ness was designed to be a "reboot" of Ninten, a replacement, so Ninten has no uniqueness factor to help him either.

She isn't the protagonist though; that's Eliwood. That said, going by sheer popularity (she's by far the most popular of FE7's main three), she definitely deserves to have a Chrom situation where her enduring popularity can let her be playable. Main problem I see is that being a (semi) echo won't fly for Lyn, so she won't be as easy.

Why would they change PT's starters? The Gen 1 starters are still among the most iconic and popular in the series.

Going by the games alone Mewtwo isn't even a villain per se. It's never been much more than a challenging side catch in all of the main series. The only real villains we have are the evil team leaders. Mewtwo is only really classified as a villain due to being the villain of one anime movie. Even then, I still want Smash to move away from focusing on the anime for inspiration, Pokéspeak aside.

Kirby is a series where the main cast is fairly fixed, though. Of all the Dream Friends, only Bandana Dee has proved to rise as an icon as the fourth wheel to the main three. Everyone else is just a fun cameo.

I wasn't saying that Ness should be replaced by Ninten. I just thought it was interesting that despite Ninten being the first protagonist of the entire Mother series, we got Ness instead. Which I'm fine with. I actually forgot about Eliwood. It has been so long since I've played that game. And I'm not against the idea of keeping the 1 gen Pokemon with Pokemon Trainer. I was thinking that if they wanted to, they could change the starters to whichever gen is current. It wouldn't bother me. And I wasn't thinking of Mewtwo from the anime. It was just more about the Pokemon himself being this dangerous creature made by man that wasn't raised to be another Pokemon, but a weapon of some sort. I can see Bandana Waddle Dee being important. I didn't understand it at first until playing a Kirby game with him in it. Based on his attacks in one of the Kirby games and how fun he is, I can see why people would want him. Kirby Star Allies showed another interesting concept, though, with the animals, which I would say are important. They go as far back as Kirby's Dream Land 2, and they were in Kirby's Dream Land 3, shown as statues in Kirby 64, and then from there I'm not sure what happened to them.

 

[Quillion]

Apparently it isn't or the Smash team is incredibly inefficient. Granted, Sakurai doesn't seem like the most efficient director.

Why do you say that? Recycling Smash 4's assets is probably the most efficient thing ever done for the series.

 

[Arthur97]

Why do you say that? Recycling Smash 4's assets is probably the most efficient thing ever done for the series.

Yet the game still seems rushed.

 

[Opossum]

Yet the game still seems rushed.

And what makes you say that?

 

[Arthur97]

And what makes you say that?

Missing modes (even mult-man was cut down), bugs, stuff like alt portraits taking several seconds to load, lack of trophies (literally to save on development), large levels of customization in some areas, but bizarrely lacking in others.

Even comparing the echoes like Dark Samus and Daisy to Chrom and Ken. Perhaps the issue is the inconsistency.

Edit: Oh, and the Plant. It's data being put in either in the base game or the day 1 patch and being available for free makes it seem like it was meant to be in the base game but didn't make it in time.

 

[Quillion]

Missing modes (even mult-man was cut down), bugs, stuff like alt portraits taking several seconds to load, lack of trophies (literally to save on development), large levels of customization in some areas, but bizarrely lacking in others.

Even comparing the echoes like Dark Samus and Daisy to Chrom and Ken. Perhaps the issue is the inconsistency.

Well, like I keep saying: this game is at the point that even with recycling assets, they still have to make sacrifices in other areas to hold the game together.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, like I keep saying: this game is at the point that even with recycling assets, they still have to make sacrifices in other areas to hold the game together.

So maybe they should have given it a few more months. That, or like I said, Sakurai and his team aren't that efficient as they had gaps even with shortcuts and development since the Wii U. Though, the modern concept of fixing games in post may also play a part. Still, it's no SFV so apparently that makes it super polished in some people's eyes. It's not a broken mess, but I wouldn't call it polished.

 

[Opossum]

So maybe they should have given it a few more months. That, or like I said, Sakurai and his team aren't that efficient as they had gaps even with shortcuts and development since the Wii U. Though, the modern concept of fixing games in post may also play a part. Still, it's no SFV so apparently that makes it super polished in some people's eyes. It's not a broken mess, but I wouldn't call it polished.

One thing to remember is that Sakurai doesn't decide the deadline. Nintendo does. When they contracted him they likely said it needed to be done by Holiday 2018, a standard three year development cycle.

 

[soviet prince]

modes that the average player never touches was prob low on there priority's

 

[Quillion]

Back on topic, I still don't agree that characters should always be decided after they prove to be popular. I know ARMS had bad timing and all, but given Nintendo's push for it as their next big IP, I don't think anyone would mind Spring Man being playable.

That said, I still think Lyn deserves a spot on her enduring popularity; I just don't think they always need enduring popularity; just some sort of push from Nintendo.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Back on topic, I still don't agree that characters should always be decided after they prove to be popular. I know ARMS had bad timing and all, but given Nintendo's push for it as their next big IP, I don't think anyone would mind Spring Man being playable.

That said, I still think Lyn deserves a spot on her enduring popularity; I just don't think they always need enduring popularity; just some sort of push from Nintendo.

I agree. I think popularity is a top priority for choosing newcomers but if sheer popularity is all a character has going for them, they should look to other characters who are almost as popular but have more merits first. But adding a fighter just to push an IP and nothing else almost never works. Spring-Man would have been a great addition, since he was popular and unique, regardless of whether or not Nintendo wanted to push him.

 

[Arthur97]

One thing to remember is that Sakurai doesn't decide the deadline. Nintendo does. When they contracted him they likely said it needed to be done by Holiday 2018, a standard three year development cycle.

True, but that still doesn't change the fact that they might should have given it more time and that with the dev time they had and reusing assets, they still fell short.

Back on topic, I still don't agree that characters should always be decided after they prove to be popular. I know ARMS had bad timing and all, but given Nintendo's push for it as their next big IP, I don't think anyone would mind Spring Man being playable.

That said, I still think Lyn deserves a spot on her enduring popularity; I just don't think they always need enduring popularity; just some sort of push from Nintendo.

I am avidly against Lyn, but I do think they need to start pushing less popular fighters in general. They can even use it to help spark interest in fledgling or dormant series. It did wonders for FE in the West. Push F-Zero a little more to increase interest. Stuff like that.

Piranha Plant turned out to be so great, why not even add more mooks?

 

[Quillion]

I am avidly against Lyn, but I do think they need to start pushing less popular fighters in general. They can even use it to help spark interest in fledgling or dormant series. It did wonders for FE in the West. Push F-Zero a little more to increase interest. Stuff like that.

Piranha Plant turned out to be so great, why not even add more mooks?

F-Zero aside, I don't really think there are much of Nintendo's lesser IPs that need Smash's push so that they can continue. Just for a few examples of characters already in: Ice Climber and Duck Hunt are fine staying one-off games, and MOTHER wrapped itself up with a neat little bow. F-Zero absolutely deserves to continue after having been pushed by Smash (and now Mario Kart) for so long, but the rest of the obscure franchises are fine staying without being promoted.

And yes, I also support the notion of having more enemies as playable characters. It broadens the series' horizons in a good way.

 

[Arthur97]

F-Zero aside, I don't really think there are much of Nintendo's lesser IPs that need Smash's push so that they can continue. Just for a few examples of characters already in: Ice Climber and Duck Hunt are fine staying one-off games, and MOTHER wrapped itself up with a neat little bow. F-Zero absolutely deserves to continue after having been pushed by Smash (and now Mario Kart) for so long, but the rest of the obscure franchises are fine staying without being promoted.

And yes, I also support the notion of having more enemies as playable characters. It broadens the series' horizons in a good way.

I'm also talking stuff that doesn't have a fighter. Dig deep.

Also, maybe this is just me, but I wouldn't mind an Ice Climber's adventure platformer.

 

[soviet prince]

I tried arms and it was boring with no variety don't understand the popularity

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Missing modes (even mult-man was cut down), bugs, stuff like alt portraits taking several seconds to load, lack of trophies (literally to save on development), large levels of customization in some areas, but bizarrely lacking in others.

Even comparing the echoes like Dark Samus and Daisy to Chrom and Ken. Perhaps the issue is the inconsistency.

Edit: Oh, and the Plant. It's data being put in either in the base game or the day 1 patch and being available for free makes it seem like it was meant to be in the base game but didn't make it in time.

Those aren't signs of rushed development, but how priorities were set. The absence of trophies, certain modes and such were probably decided from the very beginning when they set on bringing back every fighter and almost every stage. It's unlikely they had the intention of bringing those back even if you stuffed the devs inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber so they could magically have as much time as they wanted. There will always be bugs and such that were overlooked even when they were meticulous in their testing.

Likely, some echoes like Dark Samus and Richter were merely conceived as alts of a certain moveset, while Ken may have been pushed to be a slightly different by Capcom.
They have also stated that not every character they decide upon from the beginning makes the cut. It has happened in every Smash game and almost every other game as well. It's kind of silly to see it as a rush job for lacking a particular non essential feature, like the people pretending that they miss masterpieces.

 

[Opossum]

Those aren't signs of rushed development, but how priorities were set. The absence of trophies, certain modes and such were probably decided from the very beginning when they set on bringing back every fighter and almost every stage. It's unlikely they had the intention of bringing those back even if you stuffed the devs inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber so they could magically have as much time as they wanted. There will always be bugs and such that were overlooked even when they were meticulous in their testing.

Likely, some echoes like Dark Samus and Richter were merely conceived as alts of a certain moveset, while Ken may have been pushed to be a slightly different by Capcom.
They have also stated that not every character they decide upon from the beginning makes the cut. It has happened in every Smash game and almost every other game as well. It's kind of silly to see it as a rush job for lacking a particular non essential feature, like the people pretending that they miss masterpieces.

I'll have you know that those thirty seconds of Donkey Kong were instrumental in Brawl's lasting appeal.
/s

 

[Quillion]

You know what? It's probably best for the series beyond Ultimate if they stop giving the "rotating cast" franchises the "new character for every new game" treatment. As people have said, it has a good chance of backfiring and/or making the inclusion outdated. It was fine to this point, but after this, it needs to change.

It would be best for Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade to focus more on their established icons first instead of always having the new kid. Pokemon and Fire Emblem at least have enough history to draw on the established icons, and Xenoblade is getting up there with Elma and Rex/Pyra.

 

[Quillion]

Been looking at this old thread, and just realized that Xenoblade got its own second and third character(s) despite said characters' recency.

Kind of ironic considering how many people on this thread were against the recent pups (including me at one point), and now look where we are.

Also this:

Pokémon doesn't deserve to retain its characters because of its size, but rather because its old characters remain relevant. The latest, coolest 'mon now will still have its place in the franchise a decade later as one of the multitude of creatures to collect. Compare this to Fire Emblem and Zelda, which essentially stuff their one-shots (which, for Fire Emblem, is almost the entire roster of its characters outside of Anna) into the filing cabinet once their stories are done, only pulling them back out for big franchise celebrations like Warriors games or Fire Emblem Heroes. Compare Marth, who only shows up in the games dedicated to him or the ones drawing from his entire franchise, to Pikachu and Jigglypuff, who are consistently part of the Pokédex in every game. It's just not a fair comparison.

This aged like milk.

 

[Oracle Link]

So lets start with Zelda!
i think having Adult Link with one OOT-SS Moveset and one New Moveset
And Toon link with one WW-TFH Moveset and one for the first few Zeldas
Adult Zelda
Impa as a Costume For Shiek
Ganondorf With a Trident
A Goron
And Skullkid or vaati

When it comes to pokemon the Main Problem are the New Starters which could be fixed by using the Hissuian Pokemon Trainer! (I WANNA PLAY AS CYNDAQUIL)

Fire Emblem can be fixed by Mushing Marth,Roy,Lucina and chrom into one Character per Skins and Moveset choices!

Xenoblade would be fine as it is!

 

[Arthur97]

One problem with that (outside of the fact I personally hate Lucina being a clone) is that Roy is fairly substantially different in this game. Sure, casuals may not think so, but just look at how much better Roy performs than Marth. I think he does have enough changes to justify his inclusion by now.

 

[Lenidem]

One problem with that (outside of the fact I personally hate Lucina being a clone) is that Roy is fairly substantially different in this game. Sure, casuals may not think so, but just look at how much better Roy performs than Marth. I think he does have enough changes to justify his inclusion by now.

I think to question here is not "is Roy's moveset different enough from Marth's" but "does Roy really deserve his own moveset". (I don't know Fire Emblem, so I can't answer this.)

 

[Quillion]

I think to question here is not "is Roy's moveset different enough from Marth's" but "does Roy really deserve his own moveset". (I don't know Fire Emblem, so I can't answer this.)

He could at least replace Double Edge Dance with the Binding Blade's remote explosion akin to Palu's Explosive Flame.

 

[Arthur97]

I think to question here is not "is Roy's moveset different enough from Marth's" but "does Roy really deserve his own moveset". (I don't know Fire Emblem, so I can't answer this.)

It's kind of irrelevant at this point. He's here, and he has a unique moveset. And Roy is a bit of an odd case. Did he "deserve" one originally? Maybe not. However, he and Marth are a big reason why it was ever localized. As for deserves, the only ones you could probably say definitely "deserve" it are Marth (first) and Chrom (Awakening was the break out success that saved the series and pushed it more into the mainstream).

 

[Oracle Link]

Yeah, but if she's a Sheik-clone or an echo, no thanks. The Legend of Zelda has more than enough of those.

Couldnt you just make Impa a Costume? Also im sure Young Link will be cut in the Next Smash!
(BUT IF YOU CUT TOONIE IM GONNA MURDER YOU NINTENDO!)

It's kind of irrelevant at this point. He's here, and he has a unique moveset. And Roy is a bit of an odd case. Did he "deserve" one originally? Maybe not. However, he and Marth are a big reason why it was ever localized. As for deserves, the only ones you could probably say definitely "deserve" it are Marth (first) and Chrom (Awakening was the break out success that saved the series and pushed it more into the mainstream).

The Specials are Changebale in my Concept aswell as the Properties of the sword that bein Front/back/no Tipper

 

[Lenidem]

It's kind of irrelevant at this point.

Then talking about the roster is always "irrelevant"?

Couldnt you just make Impa a Costume?

Based on the lore of Ocarina of Time, you certainly could, since she's the one who taught Zelda about the sheikahs. (I never played Skyward Sword.)

 

[Oracle Link]

Then talking about the roster is always "irrelevant"?

Based on the lore of Ocarina of Time, you certainly could, since she's the one who taught Zelda about the sheikahs. (I never played Skyward Sword.)

She only has one Actionszene in skyward Sword so!

 

[Arthur97]

Couldnt you just make Impa a Costume? Also im sure Young Link will be cut in the Next Smash!
(BUT IF YOU CUT TOONIE IM GONNA MURDER YOU NINTENDO!)

The Specials are Changebale in my Concept aswell as the Properties of the sword that bein Front/back/no Tipper

They tend to stray away from any such gameplay alterations. Otherwise Female Robin would be about a head shorter than Male Robin. Though the Byleths do have a few different animations. At that point they're just echoes so...why not give them a slot? Though Roy is more than that, let's be fair, and it's not just because of the specials and reverse tipper. F-tilt, f-smash, dair, fair, JAB, up tilt, and up smash are all different moves to varying degrees. For crying out loud, the fact they had him use a reverse grip I think even may have caused his and Chrom's f-tilts to be slightly different.

Then talking about the roster is always "irrelevant"?

? Roy is a particularly special case. Kinda like Captain Falcon, he moreso made his name in Smash. By most accounts, he's a pretty weak lord gameplay wise which led to him being somewhat of a joke. That said, people love him, and largely due to Smash. I'd argue Ike did too, though fans of his game are pretty committed so to a lesser degree.

On a more series relevant note, he does represent a chunk of the series in the GBA era being the first and a big reason we got 7 as a prequel to his game. You could argue this for Ike as well. It's only really post Awakening where it was big enough that every game got a rep. Awakening being quite a unique case.

 

[Quillion]

Then talking about the roster is always "irrelevant"?

Based on the lore of Ocarina of Time, you certainly could, since she's the one who taught Zelda about the sheikahs. (I never played Skyward Sword.)

She only has one Actionszene in skyward Sword so!

Sheik's moveset was entirely made up to begin with, right down to her taunts (seriously, at least give her a harp taunt!). Considering Impa has barely any source material for attacks discounting spin-offs, making Impa an alt could work.

 

[Lenidem]

Sheik's moveset was entirely made up to begin with, right down to her taunts (seriously, at least give her a harp taunt!). Considering Impa has barely any source material for attacks discounting spin-offs, making Impa an alt could work.

Indeed. They should have put one harp-taunt, and make him enter with the balls of light from the teleportation songs he teaches to Link. Those could even have been colored differently according to the stage: blue for the water-themed levels (Great Sea, Termina Bay, Summit, Tortimer Island...), green for the woods (Hanenbow, Duck Hunt, Distant Planet...) and so on.