How should franchises that "switch out" main characters be handled? (Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, [maybe] Zelda)

[Arthur97]

Yeah, but if she's a Sheik-clone or an echo, no thanks. The Legend of Zelda has more than enough of those.

Fair, I can understand that.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Skull Kid being or not the one we meet in Twilight Princess is a mystery, yes, but even if it's not 'the' Skull Kid, you cannot see this character and not wonder if it's the one you've met in the previous games, so as a gamer you think of him.

Nintendo alluded to them being one in the same with the TP version knowing Saria's song, which was explicitly taught to the skull kid in OoT/MM (which was once again confirmed when upgrading the OoT Skull Kid spirit gives you the MM Skull Kid spirit). Even if the TP skull kid isn't the same as the OoT/MM Skull Kid, Nintendo clearly wanted to invoke a relationship with the player, you're right about that bit. There is evidence that they are the same character though.

Yeah, but if she's a Sheik-clone or an echo, no thanks. The Legend of Zelda has more than enough of those.

There's enough history of Impa that she doesn't necessarily have to be a Sheik clone. However, even if she is similar to Sheik, that wouldn't be a totally bad thing for Ultimate, even if there are "more than enough" throughout the LoZ series. Impa actually makes a ton of sense to be the next Zelda rep, with her being a MUCH more important character than Tingle is, as well as much more recurring. She has practically always served the mentor role in the LoZ history (8 mainline games, and Hyrule Warriors). Impa has enough sources to create a custom, unique moveset for her, and I too would rather her be unique than an echo (given that Sheik returns; but it is understandable if she ends up as an echo in Smash 6 if Sheik comes back). She won't be in Smash 5, but she's the most likely route in my opinion for Nintendo to take for a new LoZ representative in Smash 6. At least she isn't a one-off like Ghirahim, Midna, Zant, or Fi.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Because all of the characters you mention are prominent throughout their respective series. Anyone who isn't a Triforce bearer is either a one-shot or a side character.

How is Piranha Plant, as a minor enemy, any more prominent than reoccurring side characters like Tingle though?
Tingle's a big enough deal in Japan he not only got his own spinoff series, but was also either the first, or one of the first, Player 2 characters in any Zelda, fulfilling the role in Wind Waker. He's memorable. He makes plenty of appearances. Everyone knows Tingle. Is he not therefore prominent?

If not, what measure is a prominent individual? Does Octorok or a Moblin count since we slaughter hundreds of those similar to the plants and ducks? Impa's reincarnated soul? Vaati is an antagonist in three games, does he count? What about Epona? The three goddesses?

Literally the only reason Zelda is handled with just the triforce trio is because Sakurai chose to do it that way. We keep trying to rationalise it, but that's the simple reason. He did it because he wanted it that way. There's no big and hard rules at all to franchise picks anymore and the Plant's inclusion, as neat as it is, kinda proves it.

'Prominence' is clearly of no concequence when it allows Sheik or Roy and Lucas(protags of one Japan exclusive game apiece) to get in but prevents characters getting in like Toad, Dixie Kong, or yes Tingle from making the cut despite all three being world wide known protagonists in at least one title apiece and being reoccurring characters from three of the biggest Nintendo franchises out there.

 

[Arthur97]

Nintendo alluded to them being one in the same with the TP version knowing Saria's song, which was explicitly taught to the skull kid in OoT/MM (which was once again confirmed when upgrading the OoT Skull Kid spirit gives you the MM Skull Kid spirit). Even if the TP skull kid isn't the same as the OoT/MM Skull Kid, Nintendo clearly wanted to invoke a relationship with the player, you're right about that bit. There is evidence that they are the same character though.



There's enough history of Impa that she doesn't necessarily have to be a Sheik clone. However, even if she is similar to Sheik, that wouldn't be a totally bad thing for Ultimate, even if there are "more than enough" throughout the LoZ series. Impa actually makes a ton of sense to be the next Zelda rep, with her being a MUCH more important character than Tingle is, as well as much more recurring. She has practically always served the mentor role in the LoZ history (8 mainline games, and Hyrule Warriors). Impa has enough sources to create a custom, unique moveset for her, and I too would rather her be unique than an echo (given that Sheik returns; but it is understandable if she ends up as an echo in Smash 6 if Sheik comes back). She won't be in Smash 5, but she's the most likely route in my opinion for Nintendo to take for a new LoZ representative in Smash 6. At least she isn't a one-off like Ghirahim, Midna, Zant, or Fi.

I would like to imagine she can make Ultimate if they don't have third parties hog the other four slots.

Also, bear in mind that just because they could make her a unique moveset, doesn't mean they will. My personal example is Lucina, but Dark Samus and Ganondorf are easier ones.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Wait, where are you getting the idea that people want one-shot side characters from Zelda in Smash? The most popular choices are either the one-shot main characters or villains (Skull Kid+Majora's Mask, Vaati, Midna, Ghirahim, the Champions) or the recurring side characters (Impa, Tingle).

Sorry, this was the quote I was looking for in my former post to go along with the recent talk about Impa. I could never compare both Impa and Tingle on the same standard of LoZ side character-hood. Tingle is the definition of a side character. He never truly had a plot point in a mainline Zelda title (in which he has appeared as 5 and they were all recurring cameos for humor points, which is fine. He's a loveable guy.). Impa, on the other hand (which is what I was getting at in the last post), has always been Link's mentor in some way or another throughout all of the years, and has actually been a part of major plot point and sequential cut scenes and game-changing moments and etc. etc. Sheik, the closest character to Impa, has a fanbase from Smash and Smash alone (exagg.), and doesn't share the level of representation within LoZ games as Impa does.

I would like to imagine she can make Ultimate if they don't have third parties hog the other four slots.

My prediction for DLC in bold.

Also, bear in mind that just because they could make her a unique moveset, doesn't mean they will. My personal example is Lucina, but Dark Samus and Ganondorf are easier ones.

They probably won't to be honest. Like you said, even GANONDORF started out as a clone, and he's the head honcho of Zelda bosses. However, I'm fine with that. I would love to see Sheik be an echo of Impa. Impa is more prominent than Sheik, and because both characters practice the Sheikah ways, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo made a general moveset that could apply to both characters.

But Sheik needs to be an echo of Impa.

 

[DarthEnderX]

yes cut pokemon trainer the one that best rep the pokemon franchise the most

Trainer can eat ****. Nobody but Pokemon should be repping Pokemon, and his character switching mechanic doesn't belong in Smash, period.

If people want to keep "Everyone Is Here", than make Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard separate characters. And then give EVERY Pokemon except Mewtwo a Trainer that does nothing but stand in the background.

 

[Opossum]

Trainer can eat ****. Nobody but Pokemon should be repping Pokemon, and his character switching mechanic doesn't belong in Smash, period.

If people want to keep "Everyone Is Here", than make Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard separate characters. And then give EVERY Pokemon except Mewtwo a Trainer that does nothing but stand in the background.

I think the Trainer is fine now that the switching mechanic has been improved tremendously.

 

[Quillion]

I think the Trainer is fine now that the switching mechanic has been improved tremendously.

Still doesn't make it a good decision. Zelda, Sheik, and Smash 4 Charizard are/were much more enjoyable when they have/had a full set of 4 moves.

The best compromise would have been to make their switch Shield-B like the Inklings so that they had a full set of four specials, but it would've just been best for balance to have them completely separate.

 

[Opossum]

Still doesn't make it a good decision. Zelda, Sheik, and Smash 4 Charizard are/were much more enjoyable when they have/had a full set of 4 moves.

The best compromise would have been to make their switch Shield-B like the Inklings so that they had a full set of four specials, but it would've just been best for balance to have them completely separate.

Shield-B would prevent air switches.

Charizard benefits more from having Squirtle and Ivysaur than he does from having Rock Smash anyway.

 

[Quillion]

Shield-B would prevent air switches.

No offense, but your imagination is remarkably limited in this scenario.

Why not allow them to Shield-B switch only on the first few frames of airdodge a la zair?

Charizard benefits more from having Squirtle and Ivysaur than he does from having Rock Smash anyway.

I think it had potential as a shield-breaking, armored mixup move like DK's headbutt.

 

[Opossum]

No offense, but your imagination is remarkably limited in this scenario.

Why not allow them to Shield-B switch only on the first few frames of airdodge a la zair?

Because Pokémon Switch is too crucial of a mechanic to potential screw over with a misinput.

I think it had potential as a shield-breaking, armored mixup move like DK's headbutt.

I mean, Charizard's forward smash more than covers the shield breaking aspect. It's not too big of a loss considering the benefits Pokémon Switch has.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Still doesn't make it a good decision.

According to?

Zelda, Sheik, and Smash 4 Charizard are/were much more enjoyable when they have/had a full set of 4 moves.

Which is subjective. Plus, some characters have a full set of moves and they may find themselves almost never using one or two of them, like Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, Sheik's chain, Jigglypuff's Sing, a Counter, etc.

Switching movesets in the middle of a fight has always been an interesting mechanic when done right. It gives you versatility and a tool to adapt to a different situation. Pokemon Trainer brings that to the table and is what makes him appealing as a character. In Ultimate, they got his mechanic so right which makes it not just fun to play as but is also very efficient.
Separate his Pokemon for the sake of giving them another B Special and that would a waste of that potential. It's better if they keep him together as they benefit from having each other.

And I don't see why the need to give the other Pokemon fighters a background trainer. Kind looks like you are taking away agency from them. PT has it for obvious reasons.

 

[Idon]

How about a compromise.

Both Shield+B and Zair switches pokemon, filling up buttons PT didn't use before and opening up a slot for a more useful down+B.

I loathe the concept of buffing PT when they're already so strong, but look me in the eyes and tell me Charizard isn't by far the least played of the bunch.

 

[Lenidem]

How about you keeping PT and allow the possibility to play each of the three Pokémon separately, by a small manipulation on the characters selection screen? The developers would just need to add down-specials, final smashes, and victory poses, and maybe to buff the Pokémon a bit. That doesn't sound like a lot of work, maybe no more than for an Echo. I was actually surprised that it was not the case, until I realised that they were gaining time everywhere they could.

 

[FNUStory]

New characters should deserve a chance if they can bring something unique to the table. Incineroar for example and his pro wrestling move set. New characters should also deserve a chance if they're extremely popular even if their popularity is regional. Jigglypuff for example. I do also think that games from these franchises should be limited to one fighter maximum unless a game has multiple fighters that are particularly unique or extremely popular. Fire Emblem does this wrong when it comes to FE Awakening. Looking at Lucina and Chrom when I say that.

 

[Opossum]

New characters should deserve a chance if they can bring something unique to the table. Incineroar for example and his pro wrestling move set. New characters should also deserve a chance if they're extremely popular even if their popularity is regional. Jigglypuff for example. I do also think that games from these franchises should be limited to one fighter maximum unless a game has multiple fighters that are particularly unique or extremely popular. Fire Emblem does this wrong when it comes to FE Awakening. Looking at Lucina and Chrom when I say that.

Chrom is Awakening's main character and Lucina is one of the single most popular characters in the series. Robin has a unique moveset, Chrom is the most important, and Lucina is the most popular. Which of those things you value more depends on the person, but I'd hardly call getting a game's actual main character wrong or excessive.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Fire Emblem does this wrong when it comes to FE Awakening. Looking at Lucina and Chrom when I say that.

Which are both echoes and were included in the game only because "they can be" or something like that. They weren't too hard to implement, and Chrom was an extremely popular character even before he was added to the roster. Lucina was the one that many people weren't fond of, but she was still the first FE Awakening character they added to represent the series. (Robin stays out of this, the Lucina addition was still controversial before echoes were implemented.)

Chrom is Awakening's main character and Lucina is one of the single most popular characters in the series. Robin has a unique moveset, Chrom is the most important, and Lucina is the most popular. Which of those things you value more depends on the person, but I'd hardly call getting a game's actual main character wrong or excessive.

I ran out of battery before this comment was posted, but still wanted to pay what i had written for myself. I also wanted to add that Chrom too was extremely popular in his own right, to the point that Nintendo teased the concept of adding Chrom "another day" in the Lucina reveal.

 

[DaUsername]

If the only reason for a character's inclusion is "they're from the newest game", then it's probably not a good idea to include them.

 

[Idon]

Nintendo teased the concept of adding Chrom "another day" in the Lucina reveal.

They didn't.
That was a setup for the joke being that he was in Robin's final smash.

 

[Arthur97]

Which are both echoes and were included in the game only because "they can be" or something like that. They weren't too hard to implement, and Chrom was an extremely popular character even before he was added to the roster. Lucina was the one that many people weren't fond of, but she was still the first FE Awakening character they added to represent the series. (Robin stays out of this, the Lucina addition was still controversial before echoes were implemented.)



I ran out of battery before this comment was posted, but still wanted to pay what i had written for myself. I also wanted to add that Chrom too was extremely popular in his own right, to the point that Nintendo teased the concept of adding Chrom "another day" in the Lucina reveal.

Ironically, Lucina is generally more popular than Chrom. People were just salty about her inclusion and Chrom got treated poorly which ends up kind of inverting them here.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

They didn't.
That was a setup for the joke being that he was in Robin's final smash.

"I suppose I'll get my chance another day..." -referring to being a standalone fighter with him not getting a reveal and still being injured.

"No you'll get it today" -referring to Nintendo giving Chrom the nearest compensation which is being in Robin's final Smash.

See also: Palutena's Guidance for Robin in Sm4sh.

 

[Idon]

"I suppose I'll get my chance another day..." -referring to being a standalone fighter with him not getting a reveal and still being injured.

"No you'll get it today" -referring to Nintendo giving Chrom the nearest compensation which is being in Robin's final Smash.

See also: Palutena's Guidance for Robin in Sm4sh.

No, they both refer to Chrom getting in as a final smash.

That's the joke.

This whole trailer was made with that joke in mind, it's not separate things, which is reinforced with Palutena's Guidance.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, in regards to Zelda, I'd just treat it like Mario where you have the staple cast of characters while having a popular pick or two such as Skull Kid or a BOTW Champion. In regards to Xenoblade, just keep Shulk and add Elma and Rex & Pyra.

As for Pokemon and Fire Emblem, I don't really know how those two can be handled and honestly I really don't care.

 

[Quillion]

Well, in regards to Zelda, I'd just treat it like Mario where you have the staple cast of characters while having a popular pick or two such as Skull Kid or a BOTW Champion. In regards to Xenoblade, just keep Shulk and add Elma and Rex & Pyra.

A popular pick or two? Do you mean that these popular picks would be switched out for a fresh new face by next installment?

 

[Lenidem]

Personally I would say no. I hate this idea of changing characters just for the sake of changing, and love the 'once a Smasher, always a Smasher' concept (though I do not think that it should necessarily apply to all clones and echoes). That means that each new character should be chosen extremely carefully, since he would not be there just for one game but be part of Smash forever (I'm dreaming, I know).

So, in the case of Zelda, I would go for some recurrent, relatively important, highly recognizable fan-favorite: Skull Kid, Tetra, Tingle, my Triforce of secondaries! Or Impa, but as she would surely be a clone/echo, or an alt skin (or replace Sheik, which would saddened me even if that would make sense), I would support her only after another unique newcomer.

 

[Deleted member]

A popular pick or two? Do you mean that these popular picks would be switched out for a fresh new face by next installment?

I guess. What I was trying to go for was that we keep the reoccurring cast of Zelda characters, Link, Zelda, Shiek, and Ganondorf, while also having other popular Zelda characters like Skull Kid for example. Maybe they would get swapped out next installment, I don't know.

 

[Quillion]

Personally I would say no. I hate this idea of changing characters just for the sake of changing, and love the 'once a Smasher, always a Smasher' concept (though I do not think that it should necessarily apply to all clones and echoes). That means that each new character should be chosen extremely carefully, since he would not be there just for one game but be part of Smash forever (I'm dreaming, I know).

So, in the case of Zelda, I would go for some recurrent, relatively important, highly recognizable fan-favorite: Skull Kid, Tetra, Tingle, my Triforce of secondaries! Or Impa, but as she would surely be a clone/echo, or an alt skin (or replace Sheik, which would saddened me even if that would make sense), I would support her only after another unique newcomer.

That can only go so far though. The character roster is at the point that, even with Ultimate's asset recycling, they're still sacrificing a lot of other content they could potentially make in favor of just more characters. Why do you think we lost a lot of the Stadium Modes and got a really repetitive Adventure Mode for this installment?

 

[Lenidem]

You're right, of course. I don't know what the future Smash will look like, and Sakurai himself probably doesn't know either. But let me dream, please!

 

[Quillion]

I think that Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Zelda can stand to have a few characters just hang around for one Smash game, then be switched out. They're all big enough that ignoring the one-shots (so to speak) would be disrespectful to the respective franchises. Xenoblade can even get there once it continues for a few more games.

 

[Arthur97]

I think that Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Zelda can stand to have a few characters just hang around for one Smash game, then be switched out. They're all big enough that ignoring the one-shots (so to speak) would be disrespectful to the respective franchises. Xenoblade can even get there once it continues for a few more games.

Problem is, those fighters will be someone's favorite. Best to never bring them in than to bring them in and take them away.

 

[Oddball]

I'm against NEW characters from the newest game in an older series. I don't need Linkest newest buddy from his latest adventure. The guy has no reputation yet.

Pokemon is a bit of an exception though. With Pokemon; new game= new Pokemon rep. I'm fine with that.

With Zelda, we basically have the returning characters being Link, smaller version of Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda. ONE of them can represent the newest Zelda game. Ideally, each of them would stand in for a different game in the series. Supporting characters from older Zeldas such as Tingle, Minda, Skull Kid, those can be added as they've got staying power and have earned their popularity.

Fire Emblem has kind of hurt itself in the long run. People are tired of the sword guy main hero being included. When and if they add more Fire Emblem characters, I think they need to go back to the old fan favorites rather than brining in the new generic hero man.

if Nintendo feels the need to hype a new game, Hype a game that doesn't already have representation.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I think that Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Zelda can stand to have a few characters just hang around for one Smash game, then be switched out. They're all big enough that ignoring the one-shots (so to speak) would be disrespectful to the respective franchises. Xenoblade can even get there once it continues for a few more games.

Thing is that the creators of said franchises don't seem to find it disrespectful. I doubt that the folks at Intelligent Systems, Game Freak & the Pokemon Company, and Miyamoto & Aonuma constantly shake theirs fists at the heavens and exclaim "SAKURAIIIIIIIIIIIII!" every night before they go to bed.

 

[Quillion]

I can see that there is a lot of opposition to having recent characters be in Smash, but I stand by my belief that Smash should celebrate Nintendo's past, present, and future. Mostly past of course, but Pokémon and Fire Emblem shouldn't get exclusive rights to the newest characters; celebrating Nintendo's present and future needs fresh new faces from the franchises with revolving door casts. They shouldn't overtake the roster, of course, but fresh faces are still integral to the roster, established franchise or not.

 

[Arthur97]

Thing is that the creators of said franchises don't seem to find it disrespectful. I doubt that the folks at Intelligent Systems, Game Freak & the Pokemon Company, and Miyamoto & Aonuma constantly shake theirs fists at the heavens and exclaim "SAKURAIIIIIIIIIIIII!" every night before they go to bed.

You're excluding the fans as well.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

You're excluding the fans as well.

Maybe. I don't take the premise of this thread very seriously, because it involves cutting characters for arbitrary or very subjective reasons, which in turn excludes other fans.
It's not like the consumers' voices have been completely shut down by the devs and Nintendo as their input has influenced the decision making on the series' roster and mechanics, but is also arrogant and selfish to attempt to impose a quota on the roster, because apparently they can't let others live and die. World is always full of eager enthusiasts telling others how to do their job even if they are not qualified themselves.

I also think its very silly to feel disrespected in some of the roster choices. Like, I understand why people felt about Corrin the way they did, and then you have others saying that having Shovel Knight as an Assist Trophy is like a punch to the gut; meanwhile, the people of Yacht Games are ecstatic that he is in the game at all. I rather keep the people who bring unnecessary drama away from the decision making.

 

[Arthur97]

Maybe. I don't take the premise of this thread very seriously, because it involves cutting characters for arbitrary or very subjective reasons, which in turn excludes other fans.
It's not like the consumers' voices have been completely shut down by the devs and Nintendo as their input has influenced the decision making on the series' roster and mechanics, but is also arrogant and selfish to attempt to impose a quota on the roster, because apparently they can't let others live and die. World is always full of eager enthusiasts telling others how to do their job even if they are not qualified themselves.

I also think its very silly to feel disrespected in some of the roster choices. Like, I understand why people felt about Corrin the way they did, and then you have others saying that having Shovel Knight as an Assist Trophy is like a punch to the gut; meanwhile, the people of Yacht Games are ecstatic that he is in the game at all. I rather keep the people who bring unnecessary drama away from the decision making.

There's being insulted at an inclusion, and then there's being unhappy they cut a fighter you like. The latter is much more reasonable as they were already in it to begin with but were taken away. It gets even worse if they kept rotating them out.

 

[Quillion]

The latter is much more reasonable as they were already in it to begin with but were taken away. It gets even worse if they kept rotating them out.

I don't like it either, but it could be the only way to keep the series relatively fresh without sacrificing content in other areas. Like I said before, even with asset recycling they sacrificed a lot of old mainstay modes to have all of these characters and stages.

 

[Lenidem]

Oh, I havea crazy idea! What if, next time... take a seat... what if, next time... the game was given... enough preparation time? I know, I know, it's totally unreasonable to hope for such a thing! But imagine what Ultimate could have looked like with just a few more months. We wouldn't have had more newcomers (well, maybe an Echo or two), but we might very well have some features ike trophies and stage creator.

It's good to dream.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Oh, I havea crazy idea! What if, next time... take a seat... what if, next time... the game was given... enough preparation time? I know, I know, it's totally unreasonable to hope for such a thing! But imagine what Ultimate could have looked like with just a few more months. We wouldn't have had more newcomers (well, maybe an Echo or two), but we might very well have some features ike trophies and stage creator.

It's good to dream.

If only, if only.......

 

[Quillion]

Oh, I havea crazy idea! What if, next time... take a seat... what if, next time... the game was given... enough preparation time? I know, I know, it's totally unreasonable to hope for such a thing! But imagine what Ultimate could have looked like with just a few more months. We wouldn't have had more newcomers (well, maybe an Echo or two), but we might very well have some features ike trophies and stage creator.

It's good to dream.

This game started development during the Wii U's run. How much more prep time is even necessary?