How Port Priority Affects Throws

[Stratocaster]

Recently, @ Kadano pointed out that Fox's chaingrab works longer if you, the thrower, have the port closest to P4. I am here to tell you this is because of a global difference in how characters throw each other depending on their port. Some have said the throw release point is different, but if they mean the X, Y position of your character when thrown is different, this is untrue and easily debunked.

Here's what it is:

The player with the port closest to 4 SKIPS the first frame of hitstun (and the first frame of the animation) from every throw.

Below you can see Marth Up throwing Fox. This is the first frame that Fox is no longer in Marth's throw and is in the DAMAGEFLYTOP animation.

The purple number at the bottom signifies X, Y position of Fox. Note that the Y position is identical. The velocity is applied exactly the same and the position he is in when released is exactly the same.

The white number to the left is the number of frames in hitstun remaining, and the number next to DAMAGEFLYTOP indicates which frame of the animation they are in. You will see the second picture has 1 less frame of hitstun and is 1 frame further along the animation. As P2 being thrown I completely skipped over this frame.

Above: Fox is P1 and Marth is P2

Above: Marth is P1 and Fox is P2

The implications of this are throw combos are better by exactly 1 frame for the player with the port closer to P4. In some cases they will be made possible, in others they will just be easier. Sometimes this may mean they are required to be in knockdown 1 frame longer and thus must tech when they otherwise may not have to. The advantage isn't crazy, but its there.

Welcome to RPS for port priority. We just all thought it'd be for P1 rather than for P4.

 

[Distron]

Melee is infinite deep. I love it.

 

[Kadano]

Thanks for sorting that out, @ Stratocaster . I wanted to do it myself but there have been too many other things in the last few days that I’ve been busy with.
There are still lots of applications to flesh out to find out the implications of this mechanic left for me though, so luckily it’s not like I’ll ever run out of Melee stuff to research. =)

 

[The Star King]

Melee is infinite deep. I love it.

this is a bad thing for the game but okay

 

[Decipio-Carmen]

While we're on the topic, does this affect spacies being able to / not being able to shine out of chaingrabs? Or is shining out never guaranteed?

 

[anikom15]

I always choose P4 because it's green.

 

[Brian_Buckley]

So the player with the higher port number gets out of throw hitstun 1 frame earlier? Or am I misunderstanding that?

 

[Stratocaster]

While we're on the topic, does this affect spacies being able to / not being able to shine out of chaingrabs? Or is shining out never guaranteed?

If Marth is P1 and P2 is Fox, standing grab covers no DI from 0-18%, pivot grab will cover the no DI from 19-42% and cannot be shined out of if executed correctly (these percents assume fresh up throw btw). The difference is Marth can probably continue the chain grab on no DI even higher (up to 46% is an educated guess) if he is P4. The only difference it makes if Marth is slow with thier grab and Fox actually inputs shine on the first frame possible. It basically shifts the execution requirements of Marth slightly, and to be a disadvantage Fox has to take advantage of his 1 less frame of hitstun and act perfectly.

edit: As the higher port I was able to pivot re-grab Fox up to 50% (with TAS levels of spacing and timing)

@ Brian_Buckley yeah pretty much

Its still hard to tell the full range of the implications, but its worth noting that when chain grabs are "extended" (or, in actuality, shortened) like for Fox's that he must have frame perfect execution at the extent of his % range or count on his opponent's failure to execute an escape. Its also easier to escape because tap jump can buffer the input 2 frames (by that I mean if you tap jump too early you will still jump as long as you are out of hitstun 2 frames after the input).

 

[Spak]

So do you think this was implemented to counteract the grabbing priority lower ports have over highter ports?

 

[hectohertz]

Recently, @ Kadano pointed out that Fox's chaingrab works longer if you, the thrower, have the port closest to P4. I am here to tell you this is because of a global difference in how characters throw each other depending on their port. Some have said the throw release point is different, but if they mean the X, Y position of your character when thrown is different, this is untrue and easily debunked.

Here's what it is:

The player with the port closest to 4 SKIPS the first frame of hitstun (and the first frame of the animation) from every throw.

Below you can see Marth Up throwing Fox. This is the first frame that Fox is no longer in Marth's throw and is in the DAMAGEFLYTOP animation.

The purple number at the bottom signifies X, Y position of Fox. Note that the Y position is identical. The velocity is applied exactly the same and the position he is in when released is exactly the same.

The white number to the left is the number of frames in hitstun remaining, and the number next to DAMAGEFLYTOP indicates which frame of the animation they are in. You will see the second picture has 1 less frame of hitstun and is 1 frame further along the animation. As P2 being thrown I completely skipped over this frame.

View attachment 40732
Above: Fox is P1 and Marth is P2

View attachment 40733
Above: Marth is P1 and Fox is P2

The implications of this are throw combos are better by exactly 1 frame for the player with the port closer to P4. In some cases they will be made possible, in others they will just be easier. Sometimes this may mean they are required to be in knockdown 1 frame longer and thus must tech when they otherwise may not have to. The advantage isn't crazy, but its there.

Welcome to RPS for port priority. We just all thought it'd be for P1 rather than for P4.

great writeup strat <3

 

[Bones0]

This only applies to throws, right? Does it even affect Falco's throws (the ones with lasers)?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[schmooblidon]

Tested doc a bit. Likely the same for Mario.

Doc has a lower port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-51% (DI behind - 66%)
Falco - 0-73% (DI behind - 89%)
Fox - 0-65% (DI behind - 79%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-67% (DI behind - 83%)

Doc has a higher port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-56% (DI behind - 70%)
Falco - 0-78% (DI behind - 93%)
Fox - 0-69% (DI behind - 83%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-73% (DI behind - 87%)

I'm sure Kadano is hard at work making an essay with diagrams and gifs for Marth's cg

 

[Xyzz]

I'm pretty sure he's busy cleaning his house <3 :D

 

[Stratocaster]

This only applies to throws, right? Does it even affect Falco's throws (the ones with lasers)?

Yes, it only applies to throws. If Falco's lasers hit than a new hitstun begins and so the effect is irrelevant. I'd say in a Falco ditto you want port 1. Its only not irrelevant to Falco because he is one of the most vulnerable to chain grabs.

Does this mean that PAL Marth can start the Fox chaingrab at 0% if he's port 4 or is that extra frame not going to make enough of a difference?

The extra frame doesn't help in this case because the reason that doesn't work is Fox hits the ground to quickly with DI behind to regrab. He would have an extra frame of hitstun but its irrelevant because you hit the ground on the same frame.

 

[Bones0]

Yes, it only applies to throws. If Falco's lasers hit than a new hitstun begins and so they effect is irrelevant. I'd say in a Falco ditto you want port 1. Its only not irrelevant to Falco because he is one of the most vulnerable to chain grabs.

Does this affect dthrow on Fox? I've been wanting to start a thread specifically for Falco's dthrow because there's so much confusing info out there. I thought it was impossible for Fox to ever tech until I was playing on 20xx where once I started getting to 130%+, Fox would start teching.

 

[Stratocaster]

@ Bones0 you probably know this but Falco's down throw works the way it does because Falco's laser happens to hit him after he is released and before he hits the ground. Again this resets the hitstun so it this wouldn't affect the throw. Even if he didn't get hit by the laser port wont have any noticeable effect because they always hit the ground before hitstun wears off or can meteor cancel I guess. I don't know about Fox being able to tech out at high % but I can see that being possible if the laser happens to miss because he is hits the ground faster or something.

 

[Bones0]

@ Bones0 you probably know this but Falco's down throw works the way it does because Falco's laser happens to hit him after he is released and before he hits the ground. Again this resets the hitstun so it this wouldn't affect the throw. Even if he didn't get hit by the laser port wont have any noticeable effect because they always hit the ground before hitstun wears off or can meteor cancel I guess. I don't know about Fox being able to tech out at high % but I can see that being possible if the laser happens to miss because he is hits the ground faster or something.

No, I really had no idea how it worked. lol Relooking over Magus's throw data, it's kind of hard to tell due to his wording, but it seems like the 4th laser is the key difference? Idk, but I guess this is off topic now. Thanks for the info.

 

[the muted smasher]

Bones I believe You can di into a tech, I know this happens to watch when You d-throw him as well.

I think it might just be a programming error without cause or maybe it has to do with how Your body moves while thrown so he is on the ground before the lasers hit and the mentor just stuns him unable to bounce him off the ground like a falcon dair at low percents.

Also it could be like where if You up throw watch as roy below a platform on ps he gets stuck even when he should die or if nana grabs someone and throws them up 70% of the time they get stuck on the platform.

I think how they tumble they lay down as they pass through then are turned straight up like they're standing and then it gets confused maybe and makes You land

 

[BTmoney]

Well, I'm literally making a permanent switch to port 4 and not saying why

 

[hectohertz]

@ schmooblidon does this effect sheiks CG %s?

 

[Spak]

@ schmooblidon does this effect sheiks CG %s?

Yes.

Tested doc a bit. Likely the same for Mario.

Doc has a lower port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-51% (DI behind - 66%)
Falco - 0-73% (DI behind - 89%)
Fox - 0-65% (DI behind - 79%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-67% (DI behind - 83%)

Doc has a higher port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-56% (DI behind - 70%)
Falco - 0-78% (DI behind - 93%)
Fox - 0-69% (DI behind - 83%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-73% (DI behind - 87%)

I'm sure Kadano is hard at work making an essay with diagrams and gifs for Marth's cg

 

[schmooblidon]

@ schmooblidon does this effect sheiks CG %s?

Yeah she gets an extra frame of hitstun from her throws, so it will have a similar percent window increase. I might actually be all throws in the game, but I can't be bothered to test them.

 

[LAFFS]

So player 4 has the advantage here?

 

[Spak]

So player 4 has the advantage here?

Yup.

 

[schmooblidon]

I think I figured out why this happens, because I accidentally made the same mistake

Each frame, the game goes through each port and runs their respective action state code

On the release frame, on the attackers throw action state code, it initializes the victim's new damage state.

But when the victim is a higher port, it then goes through their respective action state code afterwards.

So really it's doing both the 1st and 2nd frame. The general movement physics is most likely seperate, and done after the action state loop, so that only plays on the 2nd frame.

 

[hectohertz]

I think I figured out why this happens, because I accidentally made the same mistake

Each frame, the game goes through each port and runs their respective action state code

On the release frame, on the attackers throw action state code, it initializes the victim's new damage state.

But when the victim is a higher port, it then goes through their respective action state code afterwards.

So really it's doing both the 1st and 2nd frame. The general movement physics is most likely seperate, and done after the action state loop, so that only plays on the 2nd frame.

marry me

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think I figured out why this happens, because I accidentally made the same mistake

Each frame, the game goes through each port and runs their respective action state code

On the release frame, on the attackers throw action state code, it initializes the victim's new damage state.

But when the victim is a higher port, it then goes through their respective action state code afterwards.

So really it's doing both the 1st and 2nd frame. The general movement physics is most likely seperate, and done after the action state loop, so that only plays on the 2nd frame.

So what does this translate to in practice? One less frame of hitstun? Or is it just shifting their knockback animation such that you would need to wait for them to fall further (an extra frame) for certain follow-ups when their knockback animation would otherwise put them in reach?

 

[Sycorax]

So what does this translate to in practice? One less frame of hitstun? Or is it just shifting their knockback animation such that you would need to wait for them to fall further (an extra frame) for certain follow-ups when their knockback animation would otherwise put them in reach?

It means both of those things.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

So do you think this was implemented to counteract the grabbing priority lower ports have over highter ports?

Maybe

Tested doc a bit. Likely the same for Mario.

Doc has a lower port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-51% (DI behind - 66%)
Falco - 0-73% (DI behind - 89%)
Fox - 0-65% (DI behind - 79%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-67% (DI behind - 83%)

Doc has a higher port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-56% (DI behind - 70%)
Falco - 0-78% (DI behind - 93%)
Fox - 0-69% (DI behind - 83%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-73% (DI behind - 87%)

I'm sure Kadano is hard at work making an essay with diagrams and gifs for Marth's cg

So Doctor has the advantage if he's P4?

 

[Spak]

So Doctor has the advantage if he's P4?

Doc can chaingrab slightly longer if he's P4 but the opponent would still have port priority for grabs, so it's a trade-off.

 

[DRGN]

I thought I'd point out for any that might be interested that a code was created to fix this bug (I admit it's possible it was intentional, but I think it's much more likely it's simply a bug).

Throw Hitstun Bug Fix

Please read around and/or post in that thread if you have questions on how to apply it to your game.