How is Project M so easy?

[mimgrim]

Fox was never terrible in PM but in 3.0 he had like 1:10 match-up against Sonic, especially in 2.6 (I think)
Edit: Watch this video and laugh http://youtu.be/WayC-X9Gw-Q?t=5m18s

Sonic is vastly different from 2.5 to 2.6 to 3.02 to 3.5. The video you posted is 2.5. I mean c'mon, don't use an old patch that has no context to now to try and prove a point. Fox won against Sonic pretty handily in 3.02 to be honest, just watch ZeRo vs Wizzrobe. The MU has gotten even better for Fox in 3.5 now.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Stop talking to that fool already, you lot. He's a troll, ignore his continued existence already.

 

[Hunybear]

PM is very lenient when it comes to performing tech skill compared to melee. As a result new players will have an easier time picking up the game and can advance further in tournaments because they have readily available options they can actually perform. This is what makes PM seem easier. BUT PM has a larger cast of viable characters than melee which adds more depth. The meta game in PM is simpler (unless ur playing snake -_-) but that could just be because melee's has been in the works for over a decade. PM also has a smaller skill gap between players. while in melee new players get the crap kicked out of them for bad decision making and no tech skill. PM newbies get destroyed because of them making awful decisions and ok tech skill. PM is a deeper diet Melee.

 

[JagoTheTiger]

I don't know myself, but all I know is that i cant shine for crap.

 

[Foo]

PM is very lenient when it comes to performing tech skill compared to melee.

Why is everyone acting like this is undisputed fact? Tech is not considerably harder in melee, save for the dash input. Just because there is a one frame physics delay does not mean you have an additional frame to preform every tech. It just means you have an extra frame to make short hopping slightly easier. Otherwise, you will have the same frame window, it's just moved one frame later for every input.

THE ONLY THINGS THAT ARE EASIER IN PM.

- Smash analog inputs (dashing, turning in shine, etc. because you don't need to hit the stick as hard)
- Short hopping one frame more lenient
- One frame more lenient on the backwards dashing out of lag thing that strongbad mentioned
- You don't have to CC upsmash out of dash

That's it. Those are the only things that are easier, and only slightly. The analog stick change was inherently better for PM, because you shouldn't need a good controller to play the game. That just makes the controls less clunky. The other isn't a big deal since cc smashing is the easiest tech in the game. I mastered that before I even learned how to short hop. The other two are one additional frame for two things. One of which is something any remotely competent melee player can do anyway.

As someone who's taken second at a (granted, small) melee tournament, the only thing significantly more difficult about melee is dashing, but that's just clunky controls. Saying you can succeed with easier characters in PM is also BS, because marth and jiggles were top tier, and shiek really isn't that hard either. Spacies are also top tier in PM, so it's pretty much the same.

Due to their being more techs in PM, more maps in PM, and FAR more character matchups to learn, I think PM has a higher skill ceiling, while also having a SLIGHTLY lower skill floor (which is a good thing anyway). The main difference is that melee players have had 13 years on one version to climb up to their ceiling, while PM players haven't had nearly that long. People haven't figured out the optimal way to play or play against most characters in the game. I have been working on figuring out ZSS to a science for a long time now, but I'm still nowhere close.

 

[Agi]

Read most of the thread, I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen reference to other fighters and the "simplifications" some of their controls have undergone over time. For a couple examples, oftentimes to use Super or Ultra moves you need to press all three attack buttons at once after inputting whatever button combination is necessary to pull off the move - or, in console versions, press a shoulder button bound to all three at once. In addition, Street Fighter has more "forgiving" windows for special move execution compared to, say, Blazblue - it's less likely that a slightly errant control stick movement will cause you to drop your combo. This is not a bad thing, and allows the players one less thing to worry about.

 

[Paquito]

as long as the meatgame encourages you to Smash attack even if it is harder the Skill ceiling will be increased.

Ok. I thought I was bringing up an obviously ridiculous counter-example, but cool.

Can you define what you think the difference is between the terms "skill-ceiling" and "skill-floor"?

 

[Warhawk]

My argument is that PM's easier execution of tech means that the game is not measuring who is being more accurate technically and thus lowering the skill ceiling because they can focus on other skills rather than tech if it is easier. PM fox's do have a hard time playing Melee for this reason.

I doubt any PM Fox that's even remotely worth his salt suddenly becomes bad when playing Melee Fox. I switch between the two games all the time and think that the technical difficulty isn't substantial enough to where you don't adjust after a few rounds and I'm not even really good. I agree there are things that are considerably easier, but they're often techs that aren't absolutely critical (I can't shine-pivot-bair from a shine hit with Falco consistently at all in Melee, but can do it 100% of the time no problem in PM but that tech isn't really game changing). The major changes like how the game reads analog stick sensitivity really aren't that hard to adjust to. A good PM Fox that struggles with Melee likely isn't struggling because of the additional difficulty in consistent tech skill, they're likely struggling with the difference in game environment, maybe the narrower more detailed matchup specifics or the smaller stages/stagelist.

Even if there is a slight ease in technical difficulty, that difficulty it is not going to be the difference between who wins a set between two good players. You don't win by simply pressing more buttons, so the difficulty in button presses isn't terribly significant in determining skill differences beyond low-level play. It's a player vs player game where you have to outplay your opponent, not press more buttons or more difficult button combinations than them. Because of this, the technical difficulty is a very small and largely insignificant part of the overall difficulty of the game at high-level, since any good opponent should be able to control their character to that character's abilities.

 

[Hunybear]

Why is everyone acting like this is undisputed fact? Tech is not considerably harder in melee, save for the dash input. Just because there is a one frame physics delay does not mean you have an additional frame to preform every tech. It just means you have an extra frame to make short hopping slightly easier. Otherwise, you will have the same frame window, it's just moved one frame later for every input.

Everyone says tech is easier to perform in PM then melee because it is true. Is that a bad thing? idk ^_^ lol. Probably not, but also the PM is slower than melee and dose give you a substantially larger time frame for inputs and reactionary play. Not to say that the game is slow because it's still played quite fast. Alsooooo PM is smoother but i wouldnt go as far as to call melee "clunky".

 

[Foo]

Everyone says tech is easier to perform in PM then melee because it is true.

Prove it. Not matter how many times ignorant people say tech is easier in PM in general, it doesn't make it true. I listed every global change that makes PM "easier." The only significant change is a less clunky analog stick. Unless you find examples of PM being easier, you are just making stuff up to support your view. When people said PM tech is easier, they were either ignorant, or referring to the things I listed.

There is a few things that makes PM less technical than melee, and a few things that make it more technical than melee. There is nothing that makes it slower. Unless you give examples about what is different about the engine to make it slower and easier, you are just making baseless assertions.

 

[Hunybear]

Prove it. Not matter how many times ignorant people say tech is easier in PM in general, it doesn't make it true. I listed every global change that makes PM "easier." The only significant change is a less clunky analog stick. Unless you find examples of PM being easier, you are just making stuff up to support your view. When people said PM tech is easier, they were either ignorant, or referring to the things I listed.

There is a few things that makes PM less technical than melee, and a few things that make it more technical than melee. There is nothing that makes it slower. Unless you give examples about what is different about the engine to make it slower and easier, you are just making baseless assertions.

lol ^_^ ok. PM matches normally take longer than melee right? More often then not. So by that logic PM players are taking stocks at a --> slower <-- pace, Therefor! and follow me here. The game must be giving them (MORE) time to react in a situation... given that they have the same move set as melee. Is that assumption wrong?

 

[Strong Badam]

Great post! But I get the feeling you thought I was being serious... lol

The majority of my post was not directed at you. I just corrected you then started typing.

Jonjon40, matches usually take longer than in Melee because of an extremely large number of reasons, but similar matchups on similar stages take the same time.
There are more viable heavy characters; their durability makes stocks take longer.
There are more viable defensive playstyles (Peach vs Puff in Melee is never over lightning-quick).
The stagelist is less straight-forward and counterpicking takes longer as a result. It also has more large stages and stages with larger blastzones.
Players are much less sure about what to do in various situations, leading to suboptimal play which takes longer. Interactions that players win are not won in the best way, leading to worse punishes that extend gameplay. A lack of matchup knowledge and extensive time practicing combos against obscure characters does this often.
Etc. etc.. It's quite illogical to immediately come to the conclusion that the gameplay mechanics are somehow different based on a different observation that is influenced by numerous other things.

 

[GabPR]

lol ^_^ ok. PM matches normally take longer than melee right? More often then not. So by that logic PM players are taking stocks at a --> slower <-- pace, Therefor! and follow me here. The game must be giving them (MORE) time to react in a situation... given that they have the same move set as melee. Is that assumption wrong?

Or maybe there are more viable characters. If you do a fox vs marth it will mostly be the same as melee in terms of match lenght. But now we have characters like link, ivy, gnw, etc. That have more slower playstyles, and even in melee characters like jiggly and samus have this kind of playstyle, and thats not a bad thing.

 

[Foo]

lol ^_^ ok. PM matches normally take longer than melee right? More often then not. So by that logic PM players are taking stocks at a --> slower <-- pace, Therefor! and follow me here. The game must be giving them (MORE) time to react in a situation... given that they have the same move set as melee. Is that assumption wrong?

Yes, that assumption is wrong. It's not because characters in PM can't take stocks as quickly, it's because PM players haven't come close to optimizing the punish game yet. Besides, games don't take that much longer than PM, if at all. A decent amount of PM matchups are actually faster, particularly with glass cannons like roy, wolf and falcon (falcon can combo the cast better in PM, but also gets gimped a little more easily due to characters being slightly better at gimping).

If PM was left out in the sun for 10 years, games would probably be as fast if not faster than melee save for some slower matchups. Also, to be clear, faster games doesn't necessarily mean more exciting or faster inputs. Sheik backthrowing fox into bairing him 5 times while he's offstage will end a game quickly, but isn't exciting or mechanically intensive.

A higher focus on onstage gameplay and combos leading into offscreen kills takes a little longer, but is more exciting.

 

[mimgrim]

P:M could easily be argued to have a higher tech skill floor simply because there are more techs you need to learn, whether or not some Melee techs were made easier. On the same end of the spectrum P:M definitely has a higher tech skill ceiling then Melee because there are more techs to master, and this shouldn't really be up to debate.

But most people don't like using simple logic.

lol ^_^ ok. PM matches normally take longer than melee right? More often then not. So by that logic PM players are taking stocks at a --> slower <-- pace, Therefor! and follow me here. The game must be giving them (MORE) time to react in a situation... given that they have the same move set as melee. Is that assumption wrong?

This assumption is wrong. P:M has far more characters then Melee with far more match-ups and more playstyles. But if you were to see a P:M match of Melee characters, say Fox vs Marth, it will most likely be in the range of typical match-time it has in Melee.

Again, simple logic.

 

[Hunybear]

P:M could easily be argued to have a higher tech skill floor simply because there are more techs you need to learn, whether or not some Melee techs were made easier.

Actually Melee has tech that PM doesn't as well.

This assumption is wrong. P:M has far more characters then Melee with far more match-ups and more playstyles.

ok?

But if you were to see a P:M match of Melee characters, say Fox vs Marth, it will most likely be in the range of typical match-time it has in Melee.

and the proof?

Yes, that assumption is wrong. It's not because characters in PM can't take stocks as quickly, it's because PM players haven't come close to optimizing the punish game yet.
If PM was left out in the sun for 10 years, games would probably be as fast if not faster than melee
A higher focus on onstage gameplay and combos leading into offscreen kills takes a little longer, but is more exciting.

So.... If the meta game evolved over a few years and the punish game improved then everyone would die quicker. But would they adapt and learn more efficient ways to survive as well?

 

[Foo]

Actually Melee has tech that PM doesn't as well.

Such as....?

and the proof?

Pretty hypocritical to ask for proof when you provided no proof that PM games were slower.

So.... If the meta game evolved over a few years and the punish game improved then everyone would die quicker. But would they adapt and learn more efficient ways to survive as well?

Nope, spacing moves safely using safe options is SUPER easy to figure out. However, players will always make mistakes constantly at any level of play, and learning to optimally punish those mistakes take a lot of time.

 

[Hunybear]

The majority of my post was not directed at you. I just corrected you then started typing.

Jonjon40, matches usually take longer than in Melee because of an extremely large number of reasons, but similar matchups on similar stages take the same time.
There are more viable heavy characters; their durability makes stocks take longer.
There are more viable defensive playstyles (Peach vs Puff in Melee is never over lightning-quick).
The stagelist is less straight-forward and counterpicking takes longer as a result. It also has more large stages and stages with larger blastzones.
Players are much less sure about what to do in various situations, leading to suboptimal play which takes longer. Interactions that players win are not won in the best way, leading to worse punishes that extend gameplay. A lack of matchup knowledge and extensive time practicing combos against obscure characters does this often.
Etc. etc.. It's quite illogical to immediately come to the conclusion that the gameplay mechanics are somehow different based on a different observation that is influenced by numerous other things.

I agree with most of this. A lack of match up knowledge would result in longer matches and a larger amount of heavier floaty characters would too. But i was making the point that the game seems easier because there really is less things to keep tack of at any given time being the result of a slow character or engine. Plus tech skill is easier to do but that really shouldn't be a issue at a higher LVL of play.

 

[Hunybear]

Such as....?

We have different tether recoveries. no EXTENDER! or super wave dash :'( a lot of ISAI frame stuff. like a lot -_- like Marth can't connect back throw F-smash with anyone in PM i don't think.

Pretty hypocritical to ask for proof when you provided no proof that PM games were slower.

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

Nope, spacing moves safely using safe options is SUPER easy to figure out. However, players will always make mistakes constantly at any level of play, and learning to optimally punish those mistakes take a lot of time.

NO? lol ok i see were not in the land of reason. lol like i see the punish game advancing faster than the survival and in time speeding the game times but no? Like it's MVCC ^_^

 

[Foo]

We have different tether recoveries. no EXTENDER! or super wave dash :'( a lot of ISAI frame stuff. like a lot -_- like Marth can't connect back throw F-smash with anyone in PM i don't think.

Super wave dash still exists, if melee tethering was a tech, so is new tethering, but I will give you the extender. Also, there is still plenty of IASA frames on lots of moves, but that isn't a tech either. All moves have lag, and then the lag ends. IASA frames don't really change that. They just don't give you as much of a visible cue.

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

This proves absolutely nothing....

NO? lol ok i see were not in the land of reason. lol like i see the punish game advancing faster than the survival and in time speeding the game times but no? Like it's MVCC ^_^

I honestly have no idea what the !@#$ you just said.

 

[Hunybear]

\ Also, there is still plenty of IASA frames on lots of moves, but that isn't a tech either. All moves have lag, and then the lag ends. IASA frames don't really change that. They just don't give you as much of a visible cue.

Ok lets not call IASA tech but it's still ever present. IASA frames do change the end lag on hits by cutting it short for another attack. so it does "really change that" and idk why it matters if there's a visible cue.

this proves absolutely nothing....

That sir proved u wrong.

I honestly have no idea what the !@#$ you just said.

lol you honestly dont seem to have much of an idea about anything ^_^ good day.

 

[mimgrim]

Actually Melee has tech that PM doesn't as well.

Please name one then.

I can name Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash, Reverse Aerial Rush, B-reversing and it's variants, Glide tossing, and Platform Canceling as some of the techniques found in P:M that aren't in Melee.

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

The hell that suppose to prove?

 

[Ningildo]

Ok lets not call IASA tech but it's still ever present. IASA frames do change the end lag on hits by cutting it short for another attack. so it does "really change that" and idk why it matters if there's a visible cue.


That sir proved u wrong.


lol you honestly dont seem to have much of an idea about anything ^_^ good day.

Being dismissive is a good way to look an ass. Especially when your sentences are confusing at times.

Pointing out statistics means nothing as there are other factors at play as to why PM matches might take longer, such as more defensive characters, heavier characters are viable etc. That's why the numbers don't mean anything by themselves. Furthermore, the PM stats given are for 3.0, so...

Why is this thread still going when the answer to the OP's question is one that depends on perspective and many perspectives have already been given (thus, question answered)? This WILL devolve into a "Melee / PM is the better game, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot" kind of thread if this keeps up.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Please name one then.

Light shields.

Anyway, on the subject of whether or not techniques are easier, I'd say shorthopping is the biggest difference. Going from a 2 frame window to 3 really does help a lot.

 

[Phaiyte]

lol ^_^ ok. PM matches normally take longer than melee right? More often then not. So by that logic PM players are taking stocks at a --> slower <-- pace, Therefor! and follow me here. The game must be giving them (MORE) time to react in a situation... given that they have the same move set as melee. Is that assumption wrong?

The actual average time between a normal Melee and PM set is something like a whole 4 seconds. Soooo you're pretty wrong on that one, too. You can stop regurgitating baseless information now.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Do you have a source for that? I'm not doubting you now that Project Recovery is dead, but I'd like to see some statistics that can conclusively put an end to the debate. And it should be interesting to see the exact numbers on how 3.5 and 3.02 compare.

 

[Strong Badam]

The study was actually done in 3.02, with ridiculous recoveries. The sample was just fair between each game and represented the top tier metagame of each. It included games with Jigglypuff, Peach, and Samus, durable characters that extend gameplay time in Melee as well, rather than exclusively the matches people like watching, with Fox/Falco/Falcon being much more common generally.
The main contributing factor to PM "taking longer" is between-game time; stagelists are not always known and the counterpick system is far more complex than Melee's due to more stages being viable. The gameplay time itself is comparable when looking at it fairly and not at outliers.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Now that the initial flamewar regarding the off-topic and unanswerable question of whether PM or Melee is better is over, I'll throw in my opinions.


Melee-exclusive Techiniques were harder to execute in Melee.

*Melee-Exclusive Techniques refer to the techniques that can be done in PM and Melee, PM has techniques that doesn't appear in Melee and these are obviously not considered for this argument.

The reason for that is not small changes like a frame or other added in PM. The human brain can't really react to anything in a frame unless it's expecting it and even then its hard to react without a visual or audio cue.
The reason why Melee-exclusive tech was harder in Melee was related to its control settings. The controls were visibly harder to control than in PM. That is considered outside influence. The game isn't responding to its own controls, which is not the player's fault.


PM has most of the techniques of Melee. (Can't confirm if it has all of them.)
However, PM also has more techniques exclusive to itself when compared to Melee.

Self-explanatory. Techiniques like DACUS and Gliding aren't present on Melee. Which means more techniques to learn and counter.


PM has more viable characters and therefore, more matchups to learn.

Melee's cast was heavily imbalanced, which led to (Exaggerated) memes like "20XX" and "Final Destination, No Items, Fox only". While the concept of Fox being unbeatable and every single Melee player using him is nothing but absurd, the highest tiers weren't that populated and anything in a tier below high-tier had few options to actually play.
(Not counter a high-tier, I'm talking about effectively imposing its own playstyle.)

While the PM cast isn't perfect, more characters were added to the roster and most of them are viable, closing much of the gap between high and mid tiers. Which obviously mean that players need to know more matchups than X Vs. Spacies, Marth, Sheik, Falcon and Jigglypuff.


Considering those three points, it's safer to consider that while PM has a lower Competitive Skill Floor* the sheer depth of the game makes it harder than Melee.

(* - Skill Floor refers to the basic skills that a player needs to learn before playing the game. Considering this is a competitive discussion, the Skill Floor mentioned refers to the basic competitive skills fundamental to a character's playstyle.
This is mostly related to execution, since we all know that raw skills only take you so far.

Ex: Competitive Luigi Players need to learn to wavedash to be able to fully adapt to the character's playstyle. As such, this is a Fundamental Skill for a Competitive Luigi Player and this is considered part of Luigi's Competitive Skill Floor.)

 

[Cahalan]

IMHO, PM is easier in terms of performing those advanced skills found in Melee, but when it comes to the core game-play, it has more depth and variety than Melee. To those who've master/have a good grasp of the advanced Melee meta-game,they'll feel right at home here, and for those who have just started PM: they can easily perform their 1st wave-dash within the first week or so of playing. And to those saying that you have to master the game (to extreme extents) to beat the more competitively savvy, that's not always the case as IMO: playing the best you can with just Smash's core mechanics and having a bit of knowledge on several techniques, you can best those with more time with the mod.

 

[Quillion]

(Thread Hop)

It has less to do with the fact that "universal techs are easier" like wavedashing, hopping, and L-cancelling and more the fact that it seems that PMDev prioritizes "balance" over "skill-to-reward" for most characters.

I saw this on TVTropes one time:

• It's Easy, so It Sucks: One of the common complaints from detractors is that the game increases the input window for a lot of Melee's advanced mechanics to make them easier for less skilled players...

This has already been addressed. It adds the techs from Brawl onto Melee's so it is ultimately harder in this respect. But...

• ...Other common complaints include criticisms about the ease of recoveries on most characters,though this was addressed 3.5, and certain characters requiring a lower skill cap to match the output of high-skill characters (Fox and Falco, Melee's top-tier stars, are usually the baseline for this).

I believe PMDev made each character with the assumption that everyone would be played at the highest level, with regard for the tight tech skill-to-reward ratio that Melee is so famous for being a close second at best.

It's pretty much an inevitability when the Mighty Glaciers are far more viable here than they are or ever will be in the official Smash games. There's next to no rapid-fire button presses you need to do with them, and that's just the nature of the archetype. Melee SD Remix (which all of you needs to experience sometime) makes the Mighty Glaciers more viable, too, and IT has the same problem (though arguably slightly less).

I believe PMDev could start prioritizing the skill-to-reward ratio over balance at this point in time, however. Considering how immaculately balanced the cast is already over the course of many years, there's really no need to make huge-ass changes anymore.

However, they're still intent on making big changes. They need to realize that at this point in time, characters are more popular based on tech skill required, not how good they are.

If I could make a suggestion, perhaps PMDev could incorporate some sort of waveshine-like cancel for all characters. What I mean is that it would essentially be PM's equivalent of SF4's famous Focus Attack Dash Cancel: you would cancel your special by jumping and airdodging into the ground, allowing for versatile followups. Maybe even apply that to even A moves. That increases the tech skill needed to play by a large margin.

P.S.: Mew2King even said this about the matter.

 

[Ningildo]

Necromancing a thread, no proof to backup your claims (bar ****ing tvtropes. Really?), appeal to authority (complete with flamebait from a biased person complaining about bias)...uh.

This is gonna fall on deaf ears (cuz internet), but you don't know until you try, right?:

-Tvtropes. Why are you using this as a credible source of info when it isn't and is listing complaints from melee players and never explains why the things being complained are bad, because right now, still sounds like "it's not melee, so it's bad"

-Where's the proof that " characters are more popular based on tech skill required"? Making claims like that without it is...dumb, frankly.

-lol m2k. I remember what his response was to people complaining about fox. Basically, learn the matchup and get gud. What about learning the Ike MU and getting gud? "nah, but (insert non-melee top tier here) is jank and all their players rely on gimmicks and actually suck". Pretty hypocritical and disappointing, coming from such a renowned player. Of course, assuming this all is true and not flamebait (but he already did something like this on Reddit a while back, so eh)

I still feel like this is flamebait, but hey, glad to see someone is out there trying piss people off with closed minded opinions.

Not helping with the whole "prevent thread necromancy" rule, tho T_T

 

[Quillion]

Necromancing a thread, no proof to backup your claims (bar ****ing tvtropes. Really?), appeal to authority (complete with flamebait from a biased person complaining about bias)...uh.

This is gonna fall on deaf ears (cuz internet), but you don't know until you try, right?:

-Tvtropes. Why are you using this as a credible source of info when it isn't and is listing complaints from melee players and never explains why the things being complained are bad, because right now, still sounds like "it's not melee, so it's bad"

-Where's the proof that " characters are more popular based on tech skill required"? Making claims like that without it is...dumb, frankly.

-lol m2k. I remember what his response was to people complaining about fox. Basically, learn the matchup and get gud. What about learning the Ike MU and getting gud? "nah, but (insert non-melee top tier here) is jank and all their players rely on gimmicks and actually suck". Pretty hypocritical and disappointing, coming from such a renowned player. Of course, assuming this all is true and not flamebait (but he already did something like this on Reddit a while back, so eh)

I still feel like this is flamebait, but hey, glad to see someone is out there trying piss people off with closed minded opinions.

Not helping with the whole "prevent thread necromancy" rule, tho T_T

I consider none of them credible; I just use them to show that the opinion exists.

 

[PlateProp]

(Thread Hop)

It has less to do with the fact that "universal techs are easier" like wavedashing, hopping, and L-cancelling and more the fact that it seems that PMDev prioritizes "balance" over "skill-to-reward" for most characters.

I saw this on TVTropes one time:

This has already been addressed. It adds the techs from Brawl onto Melee's so it is ultimately harder in this respect. But...



I believe PMDev made each character with the assumption that everyone would be played at the highest level, with regard for the tight tech skill-to-reward ratio that Melee is so famous for being a close second at best.

It's pretty much an inevitability when the Mighty Glaciers are far more viable here than they are or ever will be in the official Smash games. There's next to no rapid-fire button presses you need to do with them, and that's just the nature of the archetype. Melee SD Remix (which all of you needs to experience sometime) makes the Mighty Glaciers more viable, too, and IT has the same problem (though arguably slightly less).

I believe PMDev could start prioritizing the skill-to-reward ratio over balance at this point in time, however. Considering how immaculately balanced the cast is already over the course of many years, there's really no need to make huge-*** changes anymore.

However, they're still intent on making big changes. They need to realize that at this point in time, characters are more popular based on tech skill required, not how good they are.

If I could make a suggestion, perhaps PMDev could incorporate some sort of waveshine-like cancel for all characters. What I mean is that it would essentially be PM's equivalent of SF4's famous Focus Attack Dash Cancel: you would cancel your special by jumping and airdodging into the ground, allowing for versatile followups. Maybe even apply that to even A moves. That increases the tech skill needed to play by a large margin.

P.S.: Mew2King even said this about the matter.

Balancing to high skill = reward ends up in having characters be broken as ****.
Case in point: Fox

 

[Soft Serve]

Just let the thread die

 

[Mizter Ultimaman]

In terms of finger speed, it's easier to play Melee than PM.

EDIT: Examples of specific game aspects? In Melee, the Short Hop/Full Hop difference moment is 1 frame sooner than it should be, and this is fixed in PM. The l-cancel window is also 1 frame smaller than it should be. Melee's analog stick is also more sensitive.

But finger speed isn't the only thing that matters. In PM, you need to understand a LOT more matchups, because all those old low tiers suddenly aren't low tiers anymore. And the speed of inputs isn't all that matters either; timing inputs is also important.

 

[Xcite]

Lol just saw this thread and I have to comment on why no one commented on Lucas being much more technically deep than fox in melee. Like seriously, he require's 3X more button inputs for half the reward that fox gets for drill shine upsmash/upthrow upair. silly melee people.

 

[RelaxAlax]

GUYS *panting*

WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T GET INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH DIABOL-

ah ****...


This user attacks commentors on my videos who say anything less then perfect about Melee (or anything good about any other game but Melee) and it's become tiresome to deal with, so I know the frustration lol. I wish I was here sooner to warn you that you're gonna tread into an unwinnable argument.

So my opinion on the matter. I'll keep it really straight:

I play Ganon. I'm picking up Melee recently. It's just a tougher PM. I get frustrated because I know what I want to do and just can't do it because my timings are off or there are tighter restrictions on what I can do. If I put in the time into Melee, I have no doubt I could reach the proficiency I have in PM.

So my question is, isn't that a bit silly? Someone called it artificial skill in the thread, and I think it's about right. Not saying Melee is bad or anything. There's a reason players from Melee can come to PM and can stunt with their technical knowledge. Technical inputs are harder but like, so what? There's more to a game then just that.

Maybe people call PM easier because the skill pool is much smaller, meaning the amount of players in PM are less compared to Melee. With more players and the same characters played, the so called "more skill needed" is shown off more bc it's been tapped into already and the scene is booming. I get irked when people say they don't play PM because they don't want to deal with janky matchups. But what makes all Melee Top Tiers tops is some form of jank in their moveset (but "jank" is just a buzzword so i digress).

In PM, you can perform Melee tech easier. But that's about it. If you can do the tech in PM, all you need is some grinding in Melee to carry it over. Technical skill doesn't equal Melee. Technical skill doesn't equal PM. Both games have different tastes and different reasons why people play them, but to use such phony reasoning as to why ones objectively better does no good to anyone.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Just let the thread die

Is that right there something you idiots just couldn't bring yourselves to do?

 

[PlateProp]

In terms of finger speed, it's easier to play Melee than PM.

EDIT: Examples of specific game aspects? In Melee, the Short Hop/Full Hop difference moment is 1 frame sooner than it should be, and this is fixed in PM. The l-cancel window is also 1 frame smaller than it should be. Melee's analog stick is also more sensitive.

But finger speed isn't the only thing that matters. In PM, you need to understand a LOT more matchups, because all those old low tiers suddenly aren't low tiers anymore. And the speed of inputs isn't all that matters either; timing inputs is also important.

Melee's stick is actually less sensitive because it reads inputs later due to a larger dead zone

 

[Chzrm3]

Melee's always felt a little stiff to me. I love it, don't get me wrong, but I've never felt like I had complete control of my character.

PM did something about that. I dunno if it's because it's 'easier' or it's just more fluid and well-designed, but it doesn't have that same stiffness Melee had for me.

I'm sure if I spent time working on it, I'd iron out that stiffness and feel like I could play Melee competently, the way legit competitive players do. But I've never been able to get there, and as such I really appreciate how comfortable Project M makes me feel.

Maybe that does mean it's 'easier', if you have to put a rigid label on it, but I think that's fine. Just seems like good, solid design.