How is Project M so easy?

[Fortress]

Answer to the OP: Because it doesn't have the lame control stick deadzone that Melee has, and is generally not as clunky.

 

[Phaiyte]

soooo outside of the dash input which is an incredibly stupid cop-out to win a pissing contest, who can tell me what is /actually/ harder in Melee that is solely based on the game and not the players. The way I see it, in PM you have to consistently cover more options, and everyone who says techskill is actually harder in PM is completely bull****ting themselves. Ideally, as Fox you're going to input shield on frame 4 just like in Melee. Tell me exactly how that is different in PM.

 

[Mean Green]

L-cancels, moonwalks, pivoting/RAR, and Fox (up-C during dash, & short hop). That's basically it. Despite that, if PM's meta was as old as Melee's, I don't believe PM could be called the easier game- your opponent can threaten you with Melee tools [made easier], plus the Brawl tools. And then there's 41 MU's to adapt to instead of 8-20.

 

[Diabolical]

Turn around wave shines are harder. Even short hopping is harder. Everything is harder in Melee,

 

[QuickRat]

Turn around wave shines are harder. Even short hopping is harder. Everything is harder in Melee,

I think that's debatable. But that's not the point. The point is why "easier" is "worse".

 

[Diabolical]

I think that's debatable. But that's not the point. The point is why "easier" is "worse".

I think it's deferentially worse. If you want an easy game to play, play Brawl.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I think it's deferentially worse. If you want an easy game to play, play Brawl.

That's not how it works.
That's not how any of this works.

 

[QuickRat]

I think it's deferentially worse. If you want an easy game to play, play Brawl.

For me, this is a silly response. Melee is easier than BlazBlue and BlazBlue is easier than StarCraft. Is easiness what decides which one is worse?

I don't believe an easy game is a bad game in terms of mechanics. PM is not an easy game, it's just not as difficult as Melee, which is an important difference. PM is Melee with more mechanics, more characters, more viable characters and balancing. Why is Melee better? Just because in Melee you do not see L-cancel as intuitive as you see in PM? That's ridiculous for me.

 

[MLGF]

PM objectively has more tools then Melee, and while Melee's execution on some techniques may be harder, that tech ceiling will eventually hit and PM's higher quantity of tools may push PM over the edge on Melee, TBQH.

 

[Diabolical]

For me, this is a silly response. Melee is easier than BlazBlue and BlazBlue is easier than StarCraft. Is easiness what decides which one is worse?

I don't believe an easy game is a bad game in terms of mechanics. PM is not an easy game, it's just not as difficult as Melee, which is an important difference. PM is Melee with more mechanics, more characters, more viable characters and balancing. Why is Melee better? Just because in Melee you do not see L-cancel as intuitive as you see in PM? That's ridiculous for me.

Melee has lasted over 13 years because of the near limitless skill ceiling. Look back at the top characters over time - Shiek then Marth, Falco and now Fox. If Melee Fox was PM Fox then Melee wouldn't be played at all because Fox's skill ceiling would be sooooooo low that he would have always been top tier and the game would have been solved

 

[Strong Badam]

crouch cancels.

is not different at all between games

I think it's deferentially worse. If you want an easy game to play, play Brawl.

you seem to be implying that
1. brawl is easy. please go win a brawl tournament and show me how easy it is.
2. if brawl were easy, its mechanical differences would be irrelevant and the only thing that matters is its difficulty. this is clearly not true or people wouldn't prefer PM's engine over Melee's, where it's effectively the same with a few things that are (intentionally) easier.

additionally if difficulty made a game, people would be petitioning for mechanics copied from Melee be made harder. obviously if things were as you tell them, we should make L-canceling a 1 frame window instead of a 6 frame window. this would make the game demonstrably harder to play than melee, therefore infinitely better. but that's obviously an extremely illogical notion to anyone being honest with themselves.

 

[Diabolical]

is not different at all between games


you seem to be implying that
1. brawl is easy. please go win a brawl tournament and show me how easy it is..

As I said many times in this thread (seriously does no one read my comments?) Brawls mechanics are easy to master so what differentiates the great from the best is mind games and decision making rather than simply controlling their character better. If you look at the top 6 best Melee players punish game they clearly have better control of their characters than the rest because Melee's engine is unforgiving.You miss a chain grab on Fox with Marth? You are ****ed. This a big reason why Melee is so deep.

 

[Mean Green]

[Crouch cancel] is not different at all between games

Ok. I thought so.

 

[GP&B]

You miss a chain grab on Fox with Marth? You are ****ed.

Implying this is remotely different in PM.

How stupid are you

 

[Diabolical]

Implying this is remotely different in PM.

How stupid are you

Nah it's so much easier in PM. Just chose your counter to Fox instead of playing the super technical characters. I mean that's what everyone seems to think PM should be, a game where it's balanced and more about counter picks than actual fighting skill.

 

[Foo]

I think it's deferentially worse. If you want an easy game to play, play Brawl.

The dumb, it hurts. You are confusing difficulty and depth. Making inputs harder for no reason is called artificial difficulty. That means the game is made harder without actually adding anything. PM adds more depth to the game, and also makes a few basic inputs easier, which takes away no depth from the game. The only tangible difference is how hard you need to hit the stick to get a smash input, which makes dashing, turning out of shine and stuff like that SLIGHTLY harder but doesn't make the game deeper.

In terms of depth, PM has everything melee has and more. The only reason it doesn't appear that way right now is that the game is largely undiscovered. Melee has been playing on the same version for 13 years, and we've had 3.5 for a bit more than a month.

If you want artificial difficulty, go play one of the fighting games where you have to press five buttons to input a basic attack.

Nah it's so much easier in PM. Just chose your counter to Fox instead of playing the super technical characters. I mean that's what everyone seems to think PM should be, a game where it's balanced and more about counter picks than actual fighting skill.

There are no counters to fox... Also, marth is probably the easiest character that does well against fox in terms of tech. The others are characters like Roy, lucas etc.

 

[GP&B]

If Melee Fox was PM Fox then Melee wouldn't be played at all because Fox's skill ceiling would be sooooooo low

Bull****, on what basis? SH and turnaround shine being ever so slightly easier? He can do literally all the same things plus more with RAR and B-reversals. Fox doesn't even need to be played technical. Mang0's not even close to the most technical Fox and he wins by simply doing what Fox does best: winning the neutral game. This doesn't require extensive tech skill or even much to begin with.

This is why you're full of ****. You provide little valid exaples followed by mass hyperbole and weasel words to make it seem like your assertion has merit when it's backed by next to nothing. Do you actually play PM?

 

[Diabolical]

Bull****, on what basis? SH and turnaround shine being ever so slightly easier?

Serious bro, those are way to easy in PM. I will have to do my research but I don't think a Fox consistently short hopped until Mew2KIng. At least I remember watching old Melee vids and wondering where is the short hopping

 

[GP&B]

By one frame. This isn't even close to as significant as you make it sound and doesn't change anything about the game besides make 3-frame jumpsquat characters slightly more accessible. That's it. Not worth the gigantic boner you have for Melee.

 

[Diabolical]

By one frame. This isn't even close to as significant as you make it sound and doesn't change anything about the game besides make 3-frame jumpsquat characters slightly more accessible. That's it. Not worth the gigantic boner you have for Melee.

Making short hopping easier by a 3rd is significant. Just like the difference between a 2 frame input and a 1 frame input is significant. You can feel how much easier it is to short hop in PM anyway without me telling you the Maths

 

[PlateProp]

It's funny how all these melee people say that melee has a limitless tech ceiling, but then say PM doesnt even though it has all the melee things plus more

 

[GP&B]

And I'm telling you that execution is really not the most important factor to the game as you get better. Everything about high/top level play has to do with how you actually use tools and at this point, the execution barriers between both games is marginally different. You're way overstating its importance when all it really means is that Melee is more inaccessible to low level players (which doesn't mean anything).

 

[Diabolical]

And I'm telling you that execution is really not the most important factor to the game as you get better. Everything about high/top level play has to do with how you actually use tools and at this point, the execution barriers between both games is marginally different. You're way overstating its importance when all it really means is that Melee is more inaccessible to low level players (which doesn't mean anything).

Melee has lasted this long because it is hard. Every little bit of extra frame leniency PM has lowers the skill ceiling because you don't have to be as technical, or as accurate or as skillful.....like that's an issue. You don't have to be as skillful to play PM, meaning the skill ceiling is much much lower; meaning PM is an easier game. Making PM easier to play does affect every level of play and is why people say PM is gimmicky.

 

[GP&B]

Melee has lasted this long because it is hard.

No.

Every little bit of extra frame leniency PM has lowers the skill ceiling

It lowers the skill floor while still retaining the exact same techs on top of a bevy of new ones.

is why people say PM is gimmicky.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Christ, this is stupid and painful to read. Honest to god, I have a feeling you're horrible at both games and are only saying these things as a fan of watching Melee and not actually playing it. It's either that spending too much time on the Melee Hell page and actually taking what they say seriously.

 

[Will-O-Wisp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgBxvTMG28I Yeah. Totally not technical.

 

[Diabolical]

No.


It lowers the skill floor while still retaining the exact same techs on top of a bevy of new ones.


Are you ****ing kidding me?.

Okay, I am going to put us in an extreme situation so you get my point. What if all you had to do was push one button at anytime to do the most complex technical stuff in the game? What if there was no skill involved in the mechanics of the game? Well the game would be one big gimmick. Street Fighter 4 on the 3DS is exactly what this is, a gimmick. It does take away the skill ceiling, most of the skill ceiling in fact.

 

[GP&B]

Arguing to an extreme doesn't work in this case though. The execution for the tech is 95% the same. You keep yammering on about PM being soooo much easier when it's just slightly easier on execution and on factors that, again, barely matter at high/top level. You should be 100% consistent on short hopping before you're even a mid level player. Beyond that, execution is much less important and the focus falls back onto the exact same fundamentals you need in Melee once you get good at the game. Stop exaggerating this point so much when it's blatantly horse ****.

 

[Foo]

Okay, I am going to put us in an extreme situation so you get my point. What if all you had to do was push one button at anytime to do the most complex technical stuff in the game? What if there was no skill involved in the mechanics of the game? Well the game would be one big gimmick. Street Fighter 4 on the 3DS is exactly what this is, a gimmick. It does take away the skill ceiling, most of the skill ceiling in fact.

pls stop. That is such fallacious logic I don't even know where to start. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, just stop. A slightly easier shorthop and dash input does not turn the game into one big gimmick what the !@#$ is that logic even.

If you want clunky controls, go play qwop and leave us alone.

TWO OF THE MOST BASIC INPUTS THAT ANY REMOTELY COMPETENT MELEE PLAYERS CAN DO WITH 100% CONSISTENTLY ARE SLIGHTLY LESS CLUNKY TO INPUT. THAT DOESN'T EFFECT THE SKILL CEILING AT ALL.

That's like saying playing chess would be a harder and therefore better game if you had to instruct a drunk 8 year old to place the pieces where you wanted, rather than doing it yourself.

EDIT: How do such minor differences turn an infinite skill ceiling into a low skill ceiling anyway?

 

[Diabolical]

Arguing to an extreme doesn't work in this case though. The execution for the tech is 95% the same. You keep yammering on about PM being soooo much easier when it's just slightly easier on execution and on factors that, again, barely matter at high/top level. You should be 100% consistent on short hopping before you're even a mid level player. Beyond that, execution is much less important and the focus falls back onto the exact same fundamentals you need in Melee once you get good at the game. Stop exaggerating this point so much when it's blatantly horse ****.

Oh the affects are significant. Especially to those that have been playing Melee for a long time. PM is an easier game to play

 

[GP&B]

Great, so no retort, no other argument. Just a baseless assertion.

I think this would be easier to write this off as just ****ing around because you're running around in circles.

 

[Diabolical]

Great, so no retort, no other argument. Just a baseless assertion.

I think this would be easier to write this off as just ****ing around because you're running around in circles.

I already made my point and proved that lowering the skill needed for tech will lower the skill ceiling. You say it doesn't matter and I say it does.

 

[Foo]

I already made my point and proved that lowering the skill needed for tech will lower the skill ceiling. You say it doesn't matter and I say it does.

If by "proved" you mean, "asserted." You haven't responded to any points we make that refute yours, you just keep asserting that things are true without anything but bad anecdotal evidence.

 

[Diabolical]

If by "proved" you mean, "asserted." You haven't responded to any points we make that refute yours, you just keep asserting that things are true without anything but bad anecdotal evidence.

I have described my point in many ways. Lowering the skill needed to play at a high level does lower the skill ceiling because you are lowering the ceiling for playing at a high level...get it?

 

[Foo]

I have described my point in many ways. Lowering the skill need to play at a high level does lower the skill ceiling because you are lowering the ceiling of playing at a high level...get it?

We don't agree that the skill ceiling is lower, and you have not proven that it is... get it?

(Also, nice circular logic. "does lower the skill ceiling because you are lowering the ceiling")

 

[Warhawk]

Why the hell is this thread still circling around the argument of which game is more difficult? One, the argument really has very little bearing on which is the better game (the only relevance I can think for this is you want a player's time, experience and understanding of the game to be effectively illustrated when they play an opponent to generate a very rewarding game experience and both games do a plenty good job of this) and two, how can two very similar games have one be more difficult when the difficulty at high level comes from your opponent? It's a MULTIPLAYER game. Sure, Melee is harder from a technical standpoint, but that really has very little effect on the overall picture of a player's skill except at low-level play.

Because another human player provides the primary source of difficulty and not the game itself, I don't think you can really quantify either as being more difficult than the other. Every change to me makes the game both more difficult and easier. More techniques and options to be utilized? My own neutral game becomes easier to refine as I have more things to select from to utilize to gain an advantage, but counteracting my opponent's neutral game is now harder as I have to understand and account for more options for them as well.

 

[mimgrim]

This might shock some of you but I actually find Melee/P:M easier to play then I do Brawl/Smash 4. Execution isn't everything.

 

[Ageha]

Maybe, PM is easier than Melee. So what?

 

[Fortress]

For me, this is a silly response. Melee is easier than BlazBlue and BlazBlue is easier than StarCraft. Is easiness what decides which one is worse?

These are entirely different types of games, you can't even compare how easy one is next to the other.

 

[Vashimus]

Yes, P:M is easier than Melee, and that's not a bad thing. With an entire tourney-viable cast and a more varied stage list, P:M still achieves more depth than Melee could ever hope for. The reward for practicing a game should be gaining a better understanding of the mechanics, matchups and strategy behind it, not execution fetishism.

Low complexity, high depth. That's honestly what a lot games should aim for imo.

 

[Fortress]

Agreed. Maylay is often championed for being more difficult to play, and almost annoyingly so. Clunky, difficult, annoyingly-hard to play doesn't really mean better.